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Wide Receiver Deep Threat - OutsiderFan - 07-05-2017

For the sake of this discussion let's assume these are the available WRs in 2017, with name and eligibility:

Trent Irwin JR
JJ Arcega-Whiteside SO
Jay Tyler SO
Donald Stewart SO
Isiah Brandt-Sims SR
Osiris St. Brown FR

* TEs Kaden Smith and Colby Parkinson could be used as WRs very easily
** RBs Bryce Love and Conor Wedington could be used as WRs very easily

I don't see Irwin or A-W as deep threats, but that doesn't mean they can't get open down field.  IBS is certainly fast, and though he has done nothing in his football career to date, we've seen a lot of Seniors step up and contribute at Stanford in their final year after not showing much previously.  I expected Tyler to do more in 2016.  Though he had no catches, he was on the field quite a bit as a RS Frosh.  He's seems like a possible deep option, despite his limited height.  Donald Stewart could be a good option because he has a big frame and is deceptively fast, with really good hands.  The wild card to me is Osiris St. Brown.  Yes, he will be a True Frosh, but he may be the best deep threat on the Farm as soon as he arrives, due to his superior athletic ability.

Anyone have any thoughts or insights to share about Stanford deep threat option in 2017?

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - fullmetal - 07-05-2017

Would it kill Shaw to have multiple deep threat options on the field at once during a passing down?  I love the security of the ground game and OL execution, but let's give these receivers a chance to shine.  We shouldn't be Georgia Tech, where wide receivers go to play second-fiddle to the triple-option.  Let the kids play :)

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - CTcard - 07-05-2017

(07-05-2017, 11:30 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:For the sake of this discussion let's assume these are the available WRs in 2017, with name and eligibility:

Trent Irwin JR
JJ Arcega-Whiteside SO
Jay Tyler SO
Donald Stewart SO
Isiah Brandt-Sims SR
Osiris St. Brown FR

I don't see Irwin or A-W as deep threats,
... The wild card to me is Osiris St. Brown.  Yes, he will be a True Frosh, but he may be the best deep threat on the Farm as soon as he arrives, due to his superior athletic ability.

Well, that's all the scholarship guys on the roster for 2017 except Paxton Segina.

For the most part Stanford won't have a classic deep threat in 2017, he's not on the roster.

We will throw deep a reasonably high proportion of our throws: Shaw likes to do so and it seems a relative strength of Chryst.

Arcega-Whiteside is likely to be our best deep threat. Late last year he started to emerge in that role. He had catches of 59 and 32 yds against cal, 61 yards against Oregon (and 3 near 20 yards), 28 yds vs WSU. He seems reasonably fast, listed in recruiting profile as a 4.51 40, so he'll be able to run by CBs who are peaking in the backfield and thinking about run support.

St. Brown doesn't seem to be a burner. I can't find a 40 time for him, but in the write-ups about his attributes speed is usually not listed. Biggins on Scout wrote, "He needs to continue to get stronger and work on his top end speed".

As you implied, guys not listed as WRs might be effective deep threats. We'll see nominal TEs and RBs lined up as WR from time to time. Not sure guys like Kaden Smith are fast (saw him listed with a 4.85 40 on Scout), but they'll be able to outrun some linebackers covering them.

(07-05-2017, 11:54 AM)fullmetal link Wrote:Would it kill Shaw to have multiple deep threat options on the field at once during a passing down?

While we don't necessarily have multiple deep threats to put on the field, we do run quite a few 3, 4 and even 5 wide formations. Often some of those split out are listed as TEs and RBs.
Of course we don't actually pass all that often most years (last year #115 out of 128 in pass attempts - though only #111 in total plays run), so the multi-wide sets are often tip offs of what is coming.

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - Hulk01 - 07-05-2017

Brandt-Sims is our only veteran receiver with deep threat speed.  But he does not appear to have short, medium, or deep threat hands.

The coaches sent Arcega-Whiteside deep against Tyree Robinson (Oregon), but I think that was the only go route he caught last season.  I don't recall him being thrown to on any others.

Stewart is deceptively fast; he's proved he can beat our DBs deep.  And his length makes him more dangerous on deep balls.  He and Wedington, a legitimate 4.45ish guy, seem the very best bets this fall.





Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - fullmetal - 07-05-2017

Right, matchups can dictate whether a guy will be used deep.  Take me back to the days when both Fleener and Ertz were on the field together and burning defenses or steamrolling for RBs...

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - CTcard - 07-05-2017

(07-05-2017, 12:52 PM)Hulk01 link Wrote:The coaches sent Arcega-Whiteside deep against Tyree Robinson (Oregon), but I think that was the only go route that he caught last season.  I don't recall him being thrown to on any others.

The long catch against Cal was a go route he ran on single coverage by Franklin down the left sideline.
The not quite so long catch against Cal was an out route from the slot.
His long catch against WSU was a (slight) in route from the slot.


Quote:Stewart is deceptively fast; he's proved he can beat our DBs deep. 

That sounds encouraging.
Did you hear this from the staff? See practice? I think I remember one long catch in the spring game.

Stewart was listed as a recruit with a 4.65 40, considerably slower than the 4.51 listed for Whiteside. Of course I don't know if there is any legitimacy at all to those numbers.

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - Hulk01 - 07-05-2017

Lance Anderson is the coach who commented about Stewart "getting deep against our guys."

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - MustardtheBallCarrier - 07-05-2017

If Arcega-Whiteside can run a 4.51 40, then three things must be true:

1.  He is virtually the same speed as McCaffrey (who ran 4.48 at the combine);

2.  The field was tilted uphill when Stanford was on offense last year; and

3.  He's intentionally playing at 75% max effort because he doesn't want to be drafted so he can pick the NFL team he wants to play for.


Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - Hulk01 - 07-05-2017

Turley clocked A-W at 4.46.  Turley times consistently have been a full tenth faster than combine times.

So figuring A-W at 4.56 is about right--fast, but not Love, Mac, or evem Justin Reid fast.

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - CTcard - 07-06-2017

(07-05-2017, 02:41 PM)Hulk01 link Wrote:Turley clocked A-W at 4.46.  Turley times consistently have been a full tenth faster than combine times.

So figuring A-W at 4.56 is about right--fast, but not Love, Mac, or evem Justin Reid fast.

Turley said McCaffrey ran a 4.50 40, which turned out to be pretty close to, but a little slower than, what the combine found.
http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/stanford-cardinal-christian-mccaffrey-rb-father-ed-david-shaw-mandel-101415

Love is clearly the fastest of the group mentioned.
Times I could find on the internet for these guys are:
Arcega-Whiteside 4.51  (as above and SCPrepnation.com),  but 4.77 (ESPN)
Love  4.30 (ESPN), 4.4 (Raleigh News and Observer), 4.47 (Scout)
Reid  4.57 (seems to be guess, NFLdraftscout.com), 4.67 (ESPN), 4.64 (Scout), 4.64 (The Opening 2014)




Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - Stymie - 07-06-2017

If you Google deeper, Isaiah Brandt-Sims ran a 4.45 (laser, not stop watch) in High School.

http://www.northwestprepreport.com/isaiah-brandt-sims-the-fastest-indoor-sprinter-in2013-as-legend-grows/

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - MustardtheBallCarrier - 07-06-2017

40 times aren't meaningful unless they are electronically timed, and even then they are repeatable.  That's why I don't believe anything until the combine or a pro day.

Have never seen JJAW consistently outrun anyone or even get any separation.  He's a big target, great at using his size and has strong, sure hands.  He's very good catching in traffic because nearly every catch is in traffic.  Running a 4.5 at 6'3" is NFL athleticism, which I don't see.  4.55 is what Ty Montgomery and JuJu run.  Not blazing, but threatening speed in college.  I don't see evidence on the field that he has any more burst than Cajuste.  I still like JJAW and think he is a good target on jump ball-type routes and in the red zone.

If JJAW truly runs under 4.6, I'd say he has speed that does not translate to his game.

Back to the original comment, if there is a real deep threat on this roster, it will have to be one of the newer faces.



Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - qwerty49 - 07-06-2017

(07-06-2017, 09:43 AM)MustardtheBallCarrier link Wrote:Back to the original comment, if there is a real deep threat on this roster, it will have to be one of the newer faces.

Yeah, Wedington.

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - donkey687 - 07-06-2017

I think the TEs will have the most receptions for balls that go more than 25 yards downfield.  They usually have LBs covering them and they can create separation deep down the middle

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - CTcard - 07-06-2017

(07-06-2017, 09:43 AM)MustardtheBallCarrier link Wrote:Back to the original comment, if there is a real deep threat on this roster, it will have to be one of the newer faces.

That's certainly true, though I don't see that any of the new faces are particularly good candidates, depending exactly on what the plans for Weddington are.


Quote:Have never seen JJAW consistently outrun anyone or even get any separation. 

I'd say that JJAW is in that vast grey area that is neither slow nor particularly fast. I primarily like him because he's big and strong and fights for the ball, but he's at least got enough speed that he can take advantage of mistakes by the DB, which will happen from time to time against our run-first offense.

He did run by Oregon's Tyree Robinson on this play, though that was mainly a technique error by Robinson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvcZNBy3mss#t=29m28s

He ran by cal's Franklin on this one, though again mostly because Franklin tried unsuccessfully to bump him at the line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqMrSxmaDGA#t=1h49m34s

On this one, he was way behind the Cal safety. While there isn't a great view of the route, it looks like the safety was looking in to the LOS thinking about run support.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqMrSxmaDGA#t=1h03m06s


That's the kind of thing where Stanford is going to have to look for big plays in the passing game. Play action where the coverage guys are looking into the LOS, one-on-one coverage situations where our guy is big and strong enough to force a stumble from the defender, etc.
And from another position, Love can be devastating on wheel routes out of the backfield.

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - BostonCard - 07-06-2017

I think your points are absolutely key.  We can have a "deep threat" that doesn't involve our guy beating the defensive back in a footrace.  In fact, I would argue that most of the successful long completions will involve either a mismatch, catching the defensive back napping, or because our guys are stronger or taller than their defenders.

BC 

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - Papa John - 07-06-2017

I admit this a bit of a tangent, but shouldn't they time WRs--and the other positions, for that matter--with pads on?

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - Goose - 07-06-2017

(07-06-2017, 11:08 AM)Papa John link Wrote:I admit this a bit of a tangent, but shouldn't they time WRs--and the other positions, for that matter--with pads on?
I have always thought so, but I think the desire to make players "look faster" in the numbers works against this. Your pads-on numbers will look worse than say USC no pads numbers, so you don't do it that way. Moreover, there is also the difference between "game speed" and just "speed". Some receivers appear faster in games than they do on the track, and visa-versa. It probably won't turn 4.8 into 4.4, but it certainly can be worth 0.1 either way.

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - MustardtheBallCarrier - 07-06-2017

(07-06-2017, 11:01 AM)Boston Card link Wrote:I think your points are absolutely key.  We can have a "deep threat" that doesn't involve our guy beating the defensive back in a footrace.  In fact, I would argue that most of the successful long completions will involve either a mismatch, catching the defensive back napping, or because our guys are stronger or taller than their defenders.

BC

Respectfully disagree.  The point of a deep threat is to have enough speed to take the top off the defense.  In other words, make the defense respect the threat of a receiver blowing by a CB such that the defense cannot have safeties creep down toward the line of scrimmage and sell out against the run.  No matter how talented the OL, you simply cannot be as successful running the ball against 8 and 9 in the box.  The deep threat has to have speed, otherwise the defense is not forced to commit extra players.  JJAW and Irwin do not have that type of speed.  Brandt-Sims certainly does, but the jury is out on whether he can actually run under a ball and make a catch (let alone whether our QB's can make those throws).

I see what you are saying with respect to long completions, but I think that is a different point than the threat of going deep on every play and how that softens the defense for the run game and short and intermediate throws..

Re: Wide Receiver Deep Threat - OutsiderFan - 07-06-2017

How come nobody is mentioning Jay Tyler as an option?  Yes, he's small, but arguably two of Stanford's better all-time deep threats were Troy Walters and Luke Powell, who weren't any bigger than Jay Tyler.Â