WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT

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WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - johnnyo53 - 08-12-2017

OR SEEM TO DISAPPEAR AT STANFORD, E.G., MONTGOMERY ETC... BUT THEN KICK AZZ WHEN THEY HEAD TO THE NFL?Â FRANCES OWUSU HAD A NICE NIGHT AGAINST ATL IN THE MIA PRE-SEASON GAME...

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - CTcard - 08-12-2017

(08-12-2017, 08:54 AM)johnnyo53 link Wrote:OR SEEM TO DISAPPEAR AT STANFORD, E.G., MONTGOMERY ETC... BUT THEN KICK AZZ WHEN THEY HEAD TO THE NFL?Â FRANCES OWUSU HAD A NICE NIGHT AGAINST ATL IN THE MIA PRE-SEASON GAME...

The comment of Montgomery disappearing at Stanford is one of the odder things I have seen posted on this board, seeing that he basically was Stanford's offense for two years, and fifth all time in all-purpose yards. I guess he did miss the last couple of games his senior year.

It will be interesting to see if Owusu can stick. The guy is big and athletic and his productivity at Stanford was not what it seemed it could have been.
I haven't heard any buzz about him out of the Dolphins training camp up to now - but I am not from there and could have missed it.
If he ends up having a meaningful NFL career, he would be a singular story for Stanford football. Owusu had a career 34 catches for 482 yards.

The only Stanford receiver I can think of who had such a limited impact at Stanford but a notable NFL career was Greg Camarillo, who's last season at Stanford was 2004. However, he had somewhat more stats than Owusu with 46 catches for 614 yds.

A slightly similar story might be Doug Baldwin, who didn't have a lot of touches over his first three seasons. However, in his case he really exploded his senior season after he got far enough out of Harbaugh's dog house to see the field.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - DC 86 - 08-12-2017

(08-12-2017, 11:14 AM)CTcard link Wrote:A slightly similar story might be Doug Baldwin, who didn't have a lot of touches over his first three seasons. However, in his case he really exploded his senior season after he got far enough out of Harbaugh's dog house to see the field.

Similar trajectory to James Lofton, who only made 15 career catches before recording 53 receptions his final year.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - OutsiderFan - 08-13-2017

Doug Baldwin didn't do much until his Senior year either.Â If you don't do anything of note in your career, or only in your Senior season, you just aren't going to be drafted very high, and that means a lot of potentially lost money in the NFL draft.Â Would be a good explanation for why elite WR recruits might stay away from Stanford.Â Of course, that begs the question of why Stanford WRs take so long to develop, and in the case of Owusu, get chronically underutilized?Â

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - Bruce Wang - 08-14-2017

Francis did have to share the field with CMac and we had inconsistent QB play during his peak year.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - CTcard - 08-14-2017

(08-14-2017, 05:50 AM)Publius link Wrote:... we had inconsistent QB play during his peak year.

Well, his peak year ended up being 2015 (with 13 receptions for 175 yards), during which we had generally excellent QB play.

But, your point probably holds. In what likely should have been his peak year (senior year), Stanford didn't complete a ton of passes overall. Still, Owusu was only tied for sixth on the team in catches - well behind #5 (Schultz).

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - Mick - 08-14-2017

(08-13-2017, 08:48 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:Doug Baldwin didn't do much until his Senior year either.Â If you don't do anything of note in your career, or only in your Senior season, you just aren't going to be drafted very high, and that means a lot of potentially lost money in the NFL draft.Â Would be a good explanation for why elite WR recruits might stay away from Stanford.Â Of course, that begs the question of why Stanford WRs take so long to develop, and in the case of Owusu, get chronically underutilized?

James Lofton, caught 3 passes as a soph, 11 as a junior.Â 57 passes as a senior.Â First round pick, sixth overall.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - GK3 - 08-14-2017

The James Lofton situation has always intrigued me.Â I went to a barbecue in SoCal after Lofton's Sophmore year, I had never heard of him, but the receive coach at the barbecue told anyone who would listen that Lofton was going to be one of the greatest receivers ever.Â He turned out to be just that, but not until he was a Senior.Â What held him back remains a mystery to me.Â Walsh even put him at safety one game when the other team was out of time and everyone new they would throw and throw deep.Â

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - Phogge - 08-14-2017

(08-14-2017, 07:41 PM)GK3 link Wrote:The James Lofton situation has always intrigued me.Â I went to a barbecue in SoCal after Lofton's Sophmore year, I had never heard of him, but the receive coach at the barbecue told anyone who would listen that Lofton was going to be one of the greatest receivers ever.Â He turned out to be just that, but not until he was a Senior.Â What held him back remains a mystery to me.Â Walsh even put him at safety one game when the other team was out of time and everyone new they would throw and throw deep.

Ask JohnnyO.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - johnnyo53 - 08-15-2017

(08-14-2017, 07:41 PM)GK3 link Wrote:The James Lofton situation has always intrigued me.Â I went to a barbecue in SoCal after Lofton's Sophmore year, I had never heard of him, but the receive coach at the barbecue told anyone who would listen that Lofton was going to be one of the greatest receivers ever.Â He turned out to be just that, but not until he was a Senior.Â What held him back remains a mystery to me.Â Walsh even put him at safety one game when the other team was out of time and everyone new they would throw and throw deep.

JACK CHRISTIANSEN AND HIS STAFF ARE THE REASON LOFTON WAS KEPT LOCKED UP FOR 3 YEARS.Â HE WASN'T THE ONLY PLAYER UNDERUTILIZED BY THAT BUNCH.Â WALSH ONLY HAD HIM ONE YEAR AND IMMEDIATELY RECOGNIZED THE SKILLS.

MY RECOLLECTION OF MONTGOMERY AT STANFORD WAS HIM GETTING KNOCKED OUT OR DISAPPEARING IN THE BIG MATCHUPS BUT GETTING A LOT OF YARDAGE WHEN IT DIDN'T COUNT, AND BEING SOMEWHAT UNRELIABLE.Â MAYBE I'M WRONG.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - Spiny_Norman - 08-15-2017

(08-15-2017, 09:51 AM)johnnyo53 link Wrote:MY RECOLLECTION OF MONTGOMERY AT STANFORD WAS HIM GETTING KNOCKED OUT OR DISAPPEARING IN THE BIG MATCHUPS BUT GETTING A LOT OF YARDAGE WHEN IT DIDN'T COUNT, AND BEING SOMEWHAT UNRELIABLE.Â MAYBE I'M WRONG.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - CTcard - 08-15-2017

(08-15-2017, 12:27 PM)Spiny_Norman link Wrote:[quote author=johnnyo53 link=topic=17153.msg197223#msg197223 date=1502815872]
MY RECOLLECTION OF MONTGOMERY AT STANFORD WAS HIM GETTING KNOCKED OUT OR DISAPPEARING IN THE BIG MATCHUPS BUT GETTING A LOT OF YARDAGE WHEN IT DIDN'T COUNT, AND BEING SOMEWHAT UNRELIABLE.Â MAYBE I'M WRONG.

Montgomery had some big performances as a true frosh in the triple OT win vs. U.SC and the Fiesta Bowl. Over the next 3 years, the only time I recall him making a difference in a key game was UW in 2013.Â He saved the team.Â Montgomery ran back a kick for a TD and caught a key TD pass from Hogan just before half.Â The offense did very little the entire game (outgained by over 200 yards by Keith Price and the Huskies). But with Montgomery, Stanford got just enough offense to win.

I think that Shaw tried too hard to build the offense around Montgomery in 2014, using him in a bunch of different roles. It did not really work.Â I'm sorry about that.Â I became game day friends with his mom who is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. I'm still a fan of Montgomery and hope that this is his year in Green Bay.
[/quote]

A few details from Montgomery's career.

As a frosh - 2011
- Saw the field quite a bit, but wasn't targeted much. Played in every game.
- Had three notable games: 5 catches for 87 yds in the triple OT win vs $C, 6 for 77 in the fairly easy season ending win over und, 7 for 120 in the Fiesta Bowl.
- Had a single carry on the year, a 34 yd TD end around vs cal.
- Ended up as main KO returner among a crowded field.

As a soph - 2012
- Didn't take off as many had hoped. Missed three games mid-year. May not have been healthy.
- Had two games with 5+ catches.
- A single (ineffective) carry.
- Still had the most KO returns, but none in the latter half of the season.

As a junior - 2013
- This was his biggest year. Played in every game with pretty uniform production. Had over 100 all purpose yds in all but three games, and those were 87, 91, and 96 yds.
- Started being more featured on running plays with 13 carries on the year - all or almost all were end-around type plays.
- Many remember his game vs cal where he scored his first 4 times touching the ball. A more significant game (and best game of his career - noted by Spiny) was where he single handedly beat UW with one KO for a TD, another for almost a TD (TD three plays later), and a long TD catch - all along with 290 all purpose yards. Had 296 all purpose yds vs Utah in a valiant attempt to keep us in the game. He also had pretty significant games vs Army and twice vs ASU.

As a senior - 2014
- Missed the final 2.5 games of the season (and his Stanford career) after taking a head shot vs cal. Those final three games were all large margin wins in our famous season-ending turn around.
- Didn't have as many rushing attempts as I had thought, with 23 on the season.
- Some of his bigger games were 205 all purpose yds in the frustrating loss to U$C where we beat them up and down the field and kept self-destructing in the red zone, 206 yds in a routine win vs WSU, 171 yds in a blow out loss at Oregon.

Overall, I don't see a pattern of disappearing in important games, but like all players he had his better and lesser efforts. He never could carry the team quite the way McCaffrey or Gerhart did - but he played receiver which doesn't see the ball as much. He was the most productive receiver Stanford has had in a long time ... since Troy Walters/DeRonnie Pitts?
He's also #1 all time in career KO return yards, #2 in yds per KO return.
----------------------

The common wisdom seems to be that in 2014 the offense was too Montgomery-centric.

Maybe - I see the reasoning.

Over the first 10 games of 2014 Montgomery averaged 8.3 touches from scrimmage a game. That was up from 5.7 over 2013. That's very few touches for a RB, which Montgomery did play a little bit in 2014 (rushes accounted for 2.3 touches per game). For example McCaffrey had 26.4 touches from scrimmage last year in the 11 games he played. However, that is a high number of touches for a WR. Last season in the Pac 12, Hansen of cal had the most scrimmage plays with 9.2 with Gabe Marks of WSU second at 7.0; bracketing what Montgomery had in 2014.

In my opinion there were two larger failures of the offensive plan for 2014, one of which is related.
The first is that over the first 9/10 games of the year Stanford tried to make Hogan a (relatively) high-volume passer, which wasn't his thing and certainly wasn't his thing at the time. Over that part of the season we had a much higher percentage of our plays called as passes than any other year under Harbaugh/Shaw. Over the final three game renaissance, we had a big uptick in runs and drop in passes.
The second is that the coaching staff didn't really know what they had in McCaffrey, despite all sorts of generically positive quotations to the media. Over the first 9 games McCaffrey averaged 2.5 touches from scrimmage per game. Then he emerged out of the rubble of the Utah fiasco. Over the last four games McCaffrey had 9 scrimmage plays per game and the offense started moving.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - Bruce Wang - 08-15-2017

(08-15-2017, 12:27 PM)Spiny_Norman link Wrote:I think that Shaw tried too hard to build the offense around Montgomery in 2014, using him in a bunch of different roles.

That year we should have moved TyM to full time RB like the Packers have.Â Yes he was the best receiver on that team, but he was the best running back on that team by a wider margin.Â The year before we should have moved Ryan Hewitt to TE like the Bengals have.Â Yes he was the best FB on the team, but he could have been the best TE on that team by a wider margin.

These seem like obvious things to me, but what do I know?Â I am just a fan (who would also recruit a QB every year).

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - French Rage - 08-17-2017

(08-15-2017, 12:27 PM)Spiny_Norman link Wrote:I think that Shaw tried too hard to build the offense around Montgomery in 2014, using him in a bunch of different roles. It did not really work.Â I'm sorry about that.Â I became game day friends with his mom who is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. I'm still a fan of Montgomery and hope that this is his year in Green Bay.

Part of it was that it became too obvious when we were going to get the ball to Ty.Â He had the speed and moves that made him such a great player in 2013, but when everyone knows the following play is going to be an end-around to him, not much he can do about it.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - johnnyo53 - 08-17-2017

(08-15-2017, 01:52 PM)Publius link Wrote:[quote author=Spiny_Norman link=topic=17153.msg197238#msg197238 date=1502825246]
I think that Shaw tried too hard to build the offense around Montgomery in 2014, using him in a bunch of different roles.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - Bruce Wang - 08-18-2017

(08-17-2017, 10:43 PM)johnnyo53 link Wrote:ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON ABOUT HEWITT, COULDN'T AGREE MORE. KID WAS A BEAST.Â HIS PARENTS WERE VERY FRUSTRATED TOO.

Glad to hear somebody who actually understands the game better than any of us agrees.Â It seemed so obvious to me and my football career ended on the sand lots in middle school.

Shaw is the right guy to be the Head Coach in many ways (recruiting coaches/players, administrating, representing the university, representing the program vis a vis the admissions/university) - his weakness is his blind spot with Tavitagren.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - CTcard - 08-18-2017

(08-15-2017, 01:52 PM)Publius link Wrote:That year [2014] we should have moved TyM to full time RB like the Packers have.Â Yes he was the best receiver on that team, but he was the best running back on that team by a wider margin.Â

I dunno, I think that McCaffrey kid was okay.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - Bruce Wang - 08-18-2017

(08-18-2017, 06:41 AM)CTcard link Wrote:[quote author=Publius link=topic=17153.msg197244#msg197244 date=1502830323]
That year [2014] we should have moved TyM to full time RB like the Packers have.Â Yes he was the best receiver on that team, but he was the best running back on that team by a wider margin.Â

I dunno, I think that McCaffrey kid was okay.
[/quote]

He didn't get many touches until the end of the season.

Re: WHY IS IT THAT STANFORD WR'S GET KNOCKED OUT OR HURT - CTcard - 08-18-2017

(08-18-2017, 07:59 AM)Publius link Wrote:[quote author=CTcard link=topic=17153.msg197329#msg197329 date=1503063668]
[quote author=Publius link=topic=17153.msg197244#msg197244 date=1502830323]
That year [2014] we should have moved TyM to full time RB like the Packers have.Â Yes he was the best receiver on that team, but he was the best running back on that team by a wider margin.Â

I dunno, I think that McCaffrey kid was okay.
[/quote]

He didn't get many touches until the end of the season.
[/quote]

Exactly.

Not recognizing what they had in McCaffrey was a far bigger mistake, and a more obvious solution to the RB situation, than not turning Montgomery in a RB going into his final season at Stanford.