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Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - AncientCityIndian - 09-21-2017

1: David Shaw for all his talents is not an O genius.

2: Tavita Pritchard brings little to the table as a QB coach.

3: Since Harbaugh left, we have not developed a QB and have done a reasonably poor job of QB recruiting evaluation. Hogan had his great days but his performance was at times uneven and he was recruited by Harbaugh.

4: Because of our QB selection and development, we have had an inconsistent O despite great players at most other positions.

5: The O is WAY too complicated and too difficult to implement, hampering instinctive ability and talent.

Conclusion: We need a dedicated OC and a dedicated QB coach with the talent to recruit the right guy. We need a Duane Akina for our QB position.

Shaw`s stubbornness and blindness to his own inadequacy as an O coordinator has risen to the point that out program is regressing since the Pac 12 has been upgraded by the resurrection of Utah, Oregon, Washington, Washington State and USC; moreover, his O will never evolve because he refuses to hire anyone with the talent or substance and personality to challenge his dominance. Shaw will hire strong D assistants but not on O. His O assistants are all sycophantic to a degree. Does anyone really think Tavita will question a Shaw decision or push him to change? We need someone to challenge Shaw on O.  We need a Lincoln Riley type to be able to tell Shaw to take a back seat and run the overall program which he does superbly and let the O coordinator run the O show.

Josh Rosen WOULD have been better than anyone we have on the roster at QB despite his personality and our poor inadequate QB development.

IF we win Saturday against UCLA, we will need 35+ points against a very poor defense. I`m not even sure we can achieve that. We might be looking at a 5-7 or 4-8 season this year. Maybe that is what it will take to wake Shaw up and overcome his superego because we will never come close to winning 10 games again given the upgraded competition without Shaw upgrading the O coaching staff to the level of the D staff.


Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - stupac2 - 09-21-2017

It was two friggin' years ago when we were a top-3 offense in the country with the same staff, a good-but-not-all-world QB, and an excellent talent at RB. Do you honestly think that Hogan and McCaffrey were carrying the team in spite of Shaw's supposed inadequacies? That beggars belief.

I just find it baffling that everyone seems to have forgotten this.

Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - SF_Cardinal_Fan - 09-21-2017

(09-21-2017, 05:39 AM)AncientCityIndian link Wrote:1: David Shaw for all his talents is not an O genius.

2: Tavita Pritchard brings little to the table as a QB coach.

3: Since Harbaugh left, we have not developed a QB and have done a reasonably poor job of QB recruiting evaluation. Hogan had his great days but his performance was at times uneven and he was recruited by Harbaugh.

4: Because of our QB selection and development, we have had an inconsistent O despite great players at most other positions.

5: The O is WAY too complicated and too difficult to implement, hampering instinctive ability and talent.

Conclusion: We need a dedicated OC and a dedicated QB coach with the talent to recruit the right guy. We need a Duane Akina for our QB position.

Shaw`s stubbornness and blindness to his own inadequacy as an O coordinator has risen to the point that out program is regressing since the Pac 12 has been upgraded by the resurrection of Utah, Oregon, Washington, Washington State and U$C; moreover, his O will never evolve because he refuses to hire anyone with the talent or substance and personality to challenge his dominance. Shaw will hire strong D assistants but not on O. His O assistants are all sycophantic to a degree. Does anyone really think Tavita will question a Shaw decision or push him to change? We need someone to challenge Shaw on O.  We need a Lincoln Riley type to be able to tell Shaw to take a back seat and run the overall program which he does superbly and let the O coordinator run the O show.

Josh Rosen WOULD have been better than anyone we have on the roster at QB despite his personality and our poor inadequate QB development.

IF we win Saturday against UCLA, we will need 35+ points against a very poor defense. I`m not even sure we can achieve that. We might be looking at a 5-7 or 4-8 season this year. Maybe that is what it will take to wake Shaw up and overcome his superego because we will never come close to winning 10 games again given the upgraded competition without Shaw upgrading the O coaching staff to the level of the D staff.

Your post makes some good points.
However, no head coach is "perfect". Also, during Shaw's Stanford coaching career the team has consistently produced reasonably good results.
Regarding potential changes to his roster of assistant coaches, Shaw probably deserves the benefit of the doubt. It would not surprise me if he has already warned some of his staff that their work performance must improve.


Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - RedShift - 09-21-2017

(09-21-2017, 05:39 AM)AncientCityIndian link Wrote:Shaw`s stubbornness and blindness to his own inadequacy as an O coordinator has risen to the point that out program is regressing since the Pac 12 has been upgraded by the resurrection of Utah, Oregon, Washington, Washington State and U$C; moreover, his O will never evolve because he refuses to hire anyone with the talent or substance and personality to challenge his dominance. Shaw will hire strong D assistants but not on O. His O assistants are all sycophantic to a degree. Does anyone really think Tavita will question a Shaw decision or push him to change? We need someone to challenge Shaw on O.  We need a Lincoln Riley type to be able to tell Shaw to take a back seat and run the overall program which he does superbly and let the O coordinator run the O show.

These conclusions are too extreme and alarmist. The sky isn't quite falling.

That said, there are some structural and implementation issues that continue to be a problem in the Shavitagren offense that have been discussed by fans for a while. One of them, IMO, is the lack of dedicated coaches at two key positions: O line and receivers. Pritchard is both QB and receivers coach. Going by player development, I am not convinced that he's sufficiently competent at either, let alone both. Chryst is in his 4th year in the system. I continue to be surprised how he locks on to his receivers constantly. A lot of very good (perhaps not great) QBs and receivers are being recruited and we should see results on the field.

Stanford football has come a long way under Harbaugh and Shaw stressing on toughness, physicality and a power run game during a time when spread offenses were taking over Pac 12. But under Wilcox, Taggart, and Peterson, I expect these three Pac 12 North teams to try to match Cardinals' physicality and toughness. Stanford's offense needs to adjust.

In any case, I have no complaints about Coach Shaw because of his continued success. He's obstinate and appears not to want to hire experienced offensive staff. I'm now reconciled to it. However "success" may in the future be single-digit wins for the season. Additionally, this year's team seems to lack leadership among the players, and I sense a lack of urgency in the player interviews.


Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - OutsiderFan - 09-21-2017

Hire Todd Husak as the Offensive Coordinator.  When you listen to his analysis on the radio, he sure as hell seems to know what is going on, and what should be done differently.  Or if he lacks the coaching experience needed for such a job, let him choose the OC.

My Answer to Stupac is "Yes" - AncientCityIndian - 09-21-2017

We had a more experienced O line, McCaffrey, Hogan and Washington, USC, Oregon and Washington State were not where they are now and we did not have SDSU on the schedule.  Our opponents have caught up with our physicality and we need a different edge.

Re: My Answer to Stupac is "Yes" - stupac2 - 09-21-2017

(09-21-2017, 10:45 AM)AncientCityIndian link Wrote:We had a more experienced O line, McCaffrey, Hogan and Washington, U$C, Oregon and Washington State were not where they are now and we did not have SDSU on the schedule.  Our opponents have caught up with our physicality and we need a different edge.

Uh, Oregon was way better in 2015 than they're likely to be this year, and @Northwestern was at least as hard of a game as @SDSU. I'd bet that WSU will be about the same in '15 as '17. USC and Washington are likely better than they were, but let's see how they're doing once their QBs leave. But, really, none of that matters, because the offense was still very good using metrics that adjust for strength of the opposition.

I don't necessarily disagree that the staff could use a shakeup, there definitely seem to be lower lows on offense than seem reasonable based on what we think our talent level is, but the idea that the guys in charge are BUMS and that they have {long list of flaws} when the same guys managed to be really obviously quite good only two years is just flat-out wrong.

I Praise David Shaw More Than Anyone on This Board - AncientCityIndian - 09-21-2017

because he deserves it and all his people are good people.  I just feel we need a dedicated OC and that person should be a strong personality and replace Tavita.  Shaw has every attribute one could want in a head coach.  He should just leave it at that and hire a great OC because his talents lay elsewhere.  He is not a great OC.

I live and die cardinal and white and have since 1968 and "bums" is a word that would never cross my mind.

Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - fullmetal - 09-21-2017

Nothing AncientCity is saying should be news--I still harbor fears that our recent successes post-Luck and post-eminent linemen have been more due to Stanford men stepping up despite coaching rather than coaching developing great athletes.  That post on athlete development from a few months ago has yet to be published on this board, but I'm still thinking on it.

A truly great coaching will coach up any and all athletes.  A competent coaching staff will not hinder a good athlete from becoming great on his own.  A bad coaching staff (actively or passively) prevents athletes from achieving their potential.

If the key to having a great Stanford offense post-Harbs is individuals (Hogan, CMac, Solly), then get ready for boom-or-bust cycles.  But if you want sustained excellence, make sure your coaching staff creates that environment for athletes to succeed.

Note: Is any program looking to hire Bloomgren/Pritchard?  If not, we might not be getting very good production out of them.

Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - Phogge - 09-21-2017

The three great periods of Stanford football were the Warner/Vow Boys years, the short '68-71 Ralston run and the Harballs/Shaw tag team 2009-2016. This isn't Alabama nor is it Ohio State under Woody nor the U of ND under the Rock.

Perhaps this year is a hiccup. I just don't want them to be boring and last week bored the **** out of me.

Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - vataha - 09-22-2017

Did anyone watch the 9ers game tonight? Yes a loss but the overall feeling was that it was exciting and entertaining. You could feel it and hear it from the stands. It was buzzing. Granted the 9ers have been snooze inducing for a few years but the mojo is there. Stanford has been one of the better teams in college football for several years now, but the last two years (Mc-5 aside) the O has been a snooze. Gawd! our offense is loathsome to watch. Unimaginative, slow, can barely get the snap off in time. No creativity,no sense of urgency, plodding, predictable. Pure goat shit. (and I love goats) But once you've seen a goat do it's business it's quite predictable and I would not pay to see it a second time....Well, for sure not a third time!

Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - OutsiderFan - 09-22-2017

(09-22-2017, 02:17 AM)vataha link Wrote:Did anyone watch the 9ers game tonight? Yes a loss but the overall feeling was that it was exciting and entertaining. You could feel it and hear it from the stands. It was buzzing. Granted the 9ers have been snooze inducing for a few years but the mojo is there. Stanford has been one of the better teams in college football for several years now, but the last two years (Mc-5 aside) the O has been a snooze. Gawd! our offense is loathsome to watch. Unimaginative, slow, can barely get the snap off in time. No creativity,no sense of urgency, plodding, predictable. Pure goat stuff. (and I love goats) But once you've seen a goat do it's business it's quite predictable and I would not pay to see it a second time....Well, for sure not a third time!

Imagine this as how Stanford football was marketed to fans to buy tickets...

Yes, the Niners are anything but boring anymore.  They still stink, but were it not for that outrageous OPI call on Trent Taylor, they more than likely take the lead 42-41 in the last minute of the game. It's definitely an exciting brand of football that Shanahan is developing.  Love the use of the RBs, the moving the QB around, commitment to taking deep shots, and the fire the team plays with now.  And they have gotten better in every game, at least measured by their losing margin shrinking each game.

Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - Mick - 09-22-2017

(09-21-2017, 11:23 PM)Phogge link Wrote:The three great periods of Stanford football were the Warner/Vow Boys years, the short '68-71 Ralston run and the Harballs/Shaw tag team 2009-2016. This isn't Alabama nor is it Ohio State under Woody nor the U of ND under the Rock.

Perhaps this year is a hiccup. I just don't want them to be boring and last week bored the **** out of me.

I note that you didn't include 1977 (Ceresino/Benjamin/Lofton/Nelson/King/Kellar/NCAA passing champion/Bill Walsh/#15 ranking) or 1978, Steve Dils passing champ.

Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - winflop - 09-22-2017

(09-21-2017, 09:55 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:Hire Todd Husak as the Offensive Coordinator.  When you listen to his analysis on the radio, he sure as hell seems to know what is going on, and what should be done differently.  Or if he lacks the coaching experience needed for such a job, let him choose the OC.

Or perhaps QB coach? Problem is that he has a GREAT job that pays him a LOT of money and that he's apparently really good at. Not sure they can lure him in.

What We Have Not Resolved on O This Year - AncientCityIndian - 09-22-2017

One of the reasons experts like Vataha and Doc and laymen like myself are not satisfied with the O product on the field  (Please, we should be adult enough to critique even the best in every and any field of endeavor without inducing knee jerk anger) involves Bryce Love.  Has anyone here really thought about why a guy who averaged 14 yards per carry plus against SDSU only carried 12 times in the game and was not in the game during crunch time? (I know we only had the ball for 20 minutes+) It is because he is a very poor and inconsistent pass blocker.  He also has not been a very frequent passing target.  If he had been on the other side of the field, it would not have been a problem because SDSU`s QB skill set was different and he was able to roll out BY DESIGN and mitigate any backfield pass blocking deficiencies.  With our O concept we could not keep him in on important passing downs which decreased his influence on the game.

I could point out a few others and break down Shaw`s O concept deficiencies during the past few games but sometimes any discussion of this nature on this board is automatically construed  by some as a Shaw hating exercise which flies against his recent success.  When this happens, I just use Saban as an example.  I would never exchange Shaw for Saban as a HC because Shaw is a perfect fit for Stanford and I respect him mightily.  I am not afraid, however, to point out that Saban is never afraid to change coaches or schemes to rectify deficiencies or inadequacies and he does not micromanage as a coordinator.  His role is to set team policy and find the best and brightest to incorporate his principles and philosophies. I am of the opinion that Shaw should be more like Saban in that regard.  Saban has arguably been the most successful college football coach of the last decade but he will accept any change in personnel or game plan on a dime in response to anything that decreases his chances for victory.

Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - OutsiderFan - 09-22-2017

Truth be told, you don't need a mobile QB to run plays that have no RB pass protection responsibility.  You can go empty, spread the field, and split the RB out as a slot receiver, and if you still want the run threat, go with the jet sweep action. 


Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - 81alum - 09-22-2017

(09-22-2017, 05:12 AM)Mick link Wrote:[quote author=Phogge link=topic=17451.msg201844#msg201844 date=1506061425]
The three great periods of Stanford football were the Warner/Vow Boys years, the short '68-71 Ralston run and the Harballs/Shaw tag team 2009-2016. This isn't Alabama nor is it Ohio State under Woody nor the U of ND under the Rock.

Perhaps this year is a hiccup. I just don't want them to be boring and last week bored the **** out of me.

I note that you didn't include 1977 (Ceresino/Benjamin/Lofton/Nelson/King/Kellar/NCAA passing champion/Bill Walsh/#15 ranking) or 1978, Steve Dils passing champ.
[/quote]
Maybe it is because 1977 was when I was converted to become a Stanford football fan, but I agree that those two years were "bliss."  Part of what made it so wonderful was the nature of the offense--in an era when substitutions were rare, Walsh used them liberally.  In an era when few teams passed on first down, Walsh mixed it up.  In an era in which passes were invariably bombs, Walsh used intricate patterns.  And it did not hurt one bit to have the young Darrin Nelson juking defenders out of their skin.  Just a delightful team to watch--especially for the thinking, more cerebral fan.  And that fit Stanford perfectly.

Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - 81alum - 09-22-2017

(09-22-2017, 06:03 AM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=OutsiderFan link=topic=17451.msg201769#msg201769 date=1506012939]
Hire Todd Husak as the Offensive Coordinator.  When you listen to his analysis on the radio, he sure as hell seems to know what is going on, and what should be done differently.  Or if he lacks the coaching experience needed for such a job, let him choose the OC.

Or perhaps QB coach? Problem is that he has a GREAT job that pays him a LOT of money and that he's apparently really good at. Not sure they can lure him in.
[/quote]
I have been deeply impressed with Husak's radio analysis, to the point I turn off the TV and listen to him.  He sees things that everyone else seems to miss, and points them out, and then you say "oh...now I get it."  I think he would be a terrific quarterback coach.

Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - Mick - 09-22-2017

(09-22-2017, 06:21 AM)81alum link Wrote:[quote author=Mick link=topic=17451.msg201851#msg201851 date=1506082364]
[quote author=Phogge link=topic=17451.msg201844#msg201844 date=1506061425]
The three great periods of Stanford football were the Warner/Vow Boys years, the short '68-71 Ralston run and the Harballs/Shaw tag team 2009-2016. This isn't Alabama nor is it Ohio State under Woody nor the U of ND under the Rock.

Perhaps this year is a hiccup. I just don't want them to be boring and last week bored the **** out of me.

I note that you didn't include 1977 (Ceresino/Benjamin/Lofton/Nelson/King/Kellar/NCAA passing champion/Bill Walsh/#15 ranking) or 1978, Steve Dils passing champ.
[/quote]
Maybe it is because 1977 was when I was converted to become a Stanford football fan, but I agree that those two years were "bliss."  Part of what made it so wonderful was the nature of the offense--in an era when substitutions were rare, Walsh used them liberally.  In an era when few teams passed on first down, Walsh mixed it up.  In an era in which passes were invariably bombs, Walsh used intricate patterns.  And it did not hurt one bit to have the young Darrin Nelson juking defenders out of their skin.  Just a delightful team to watch--especially for the thinking, more cerebral fan.  And that fit Stanford perfectly.
[/quote]

The 1977 win over Oregon State was on my 15th birthday.  Those teams were so much fun to watch.

Re: Coach Shaw Needs an Intervention - Goose - 09-22-2017

(09-22-2017, 06:17 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:Truth be told, you don't need a mobile QB to run plays that have no RB pass protection responsibility.  You can go empty, spread the field, and split the RB out as a slot receiver, and if you still want the run threat, go with the jet sweep action.
Yes, you can do that. We have those plays in the playbook. If your QB isn't mobile in that set, the defense will press your receivers to deny the quick pass and kill him. If your OL is good enough to hold off the pass rush for a while,  you can pull it off, and once the receivers slip off the press coverage, it can work great. See WSU.
I am quite sure Shaw is aware that this approach exists. I am also pretty sure he believes that our personnel  don't run it well. I also think it pretty probable that Stanford has practiced using Love in the slot. The fact we don't see nearly as much (any) of this in games compared to 2016 probably has to do with Love not being as good at running patterns as CMac, Love not catching well, and/or Chryst not being able to execute the throw. I don't believe that it is because we have forgotten the possibility exists.