Are we rivals? The ND view....

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Are we rivals? The ND view.... - TreesAndBirds - 09-28-2018

Comments better than article and podcast.

https://www.onefootdown.com/2018/9/27/17908694/ofd-podcast-is-notre-dame-vs-stanford-a-rivalry-game-legends-trophy

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - martyup - 09-28-2018

In the comments, ND fans seek to equate level of hate with rivalry status. If hating a team makes them a rival, then ND would be every team's rival.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - Redrum - 09-28-2018

USC...Notre Dame...Kal Each offers a unique, particular reason to want to "rival" their a**.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - OutsiderFan - 09-29-2018

Any team you play every year has to be considered a rival, but there are degrees, like:

1. Are your games meaningful in the context of settling championships?
2. Do you recruit against each other?
3. What's your proximity to each other?
4. How even are the results?
5. Are there incidents that have inflamed either side, that have happened beyond the actual final score results?

Going by this measure, I'd rank them like this, giving 1 pt to each team in terms of Stanford rivalry intensity:

1. USC - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - 5 pts: It's a clean sweep for the Condoms. This is easily Stanford's greatest rival. Games are very meaningful, they recruit against each other, NorCal-SoCal, they are usually tight games, they trade wins, what's your deal / USC cheating in sports and elsewhere.

2. Notre Dame - 1, 2 (double), 4, 5 - 4pts: The games have been quite meaningful, particularly for ND playoff chances that Stanford has snuffed out 2/3 times in last decade, they recruit hard against each other, the games are usually super close, and Stanford fans really hate Notre Dame claiming parity with Stanford academically, while still adopting a win at all costs attitude Stanford fans loathe, manifested in perception of Brian Kelly.

Note: It probably shouldn't be a surprise that the top two are private schools. There is something about this that makes the rivalry with these two just a bit more meaningful due to Stanford also being private.

3. Oregon - 1, 4, 5 - 3 pts: Meaningful games, usually tight/nobody dominates, Stanford fans don't like the criminals Oregon recruits. You might say Oregon is more important than Notre Dame, but I guarantee most Stanford fans would pick beating Notre Dame as more satisfying than beating the Ducks, if they could only have one win between the two.

4. Cal - 2, 3, 5 - 3 pts: Recruit against each other, 30 miles apart, Cal-Stanford academic rivalry. These teams haven't been consistently good enough at the same time, and their games really have never settled anything in the Pac-12.

5. Washington - 1, 2 - 2 pts: They do settle championships, recruit a lot of the same players in PNW, but they haven't been close games or really been any kind of back and forth, aren't close, and Washington has always been pretty clean.

6. UCLA - 2, 3 - 2 pts: Recruit against each other, NorCal-SoCal, but the games have largely settled nothing over the years and Stanford has ownage over last decade.

7. WSU - 1 - 1 pt: The Cougs have won some games against Stanford lately, and some have been important in terms of settling division, but this is just not firing anyone up as a rival like the others.

8. OSU - 0 - 0 pts: Sure the Beavs are in the North, but I don't ever remember these teams playing for anything meaningful ever. I'd imagine the Beavs occupy a similar place fo most Pac-12 programs.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - winflop - 09-29-2018

I'm a traditionalist. I will always see Cal as our rival.

But I take greater pleasure in beating U$C & UFDG because they are more prestigious programs

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - JPR36 - 09-29-2018

(09-29-2018, 05:04 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Any team you play every year has to be considered a rival, but there are degrees, like:

1. Are your games meaningful in the context of settling championships?
2. Do you recruit against each other?
3. What's your proximity to each other?
4. How even are the results?
5. Are there incidents that have inflamed either side, that have happened beyond the actual final score results?

Going by this measure, I'd rank them like this, giving 1 pt to each team in terms of Stanford rivalry intensity:

1. USC - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - 5 pts: It's a clean sweep for the Condoms. This is easily Stanford's greatest rival. Games are very meaningful, they recruit against each other, NorCal-SoCal, they are usually tight games, they trade wins, what's your deal / USC cheating in sports and elsewhere.

2. Notre Dame - 1, 2 (double), 4, 5 - 4pts: The games have been quite meaningful, particularly for ND playoff chances that Stanford has snuffed out 2/3 times in last decade, they recruit hard against each other, the games are usually super close, and Stanford fans really hate Notre Dame claiming parity with Stanford academically, while still adopting a win at all costs attitude Stanford fans loathe, manifested in perception of Brian Kelly.

Note: It probably shouldn't be a surprise that the top two are private schools. There is something about this that makes the rivalry with these two just a bit more meaningful due to Stanford also being private.

3. Oregon - 1, 4, 5 - 3 pts: Meaningful games, usually tight/nobody dominates, Stanford fans don't like the criminals Oregon recruits. You might say Oregon is more important than Notre Dame, but I guarantee most Stanford fans would pick beating Notre Dame as more satisfying than beating the Ducks, if they could only have one win between the two.

4. Cal - 2, 3, 5 - 3 pts: Recruit against each other, 30 miles apart, Cal-Stanford academic rivalry. These teams haven't been consistently good enough at the same time, and their games really have never settled anything in the Pac-12.

5. Washington - 1, 2 - 2 pts: They do settle championships, recruit a lot of the same players in PNW, but they haven't been close games or really been any kind of back and forth, aren't close, and Washington has always been pretty clean.

6. UCLA - 2, 3 - 2 pts: Recruit against each other, NorCal-SoCal, but the games have largely settled nothing over the years and Stanford has ownage over last decade.

7. WSU - 1 - 1 pt: The Cougs have won some games against Stanford lately, and some have been important in terms of settling division, but this is just not firing anyone up as a rival like the others.

8. OSU - 0 - 0 pts: Sure the Beavs are in the North, but I don't ever remember these teams playing for anything meaningful ever. I'd imagine the Beavs occupy a similar place fo most Pac-12 programs.

Good post, but I would beg to differ on the statement our recent games with Washington haven't been close. 2017, 2014, 2013, and 2012 were all close games.
Also, while ND may have a win at all costs attitude compared with Stanford, I don't think they do as compared with the other schools that play elite football.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - CTcard - 09-29-2018

(09-29-2018, 05:04 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Any team you play every year has to be considered a rival, but there are degrees, like:

1. Are your games meaningful in the context of settling championships?

It’s all personal taste of course, but I would state that a true rival is one for whom the games are meaningful even when they have nothing to do with settling championships.

Further, I’d say one can’t figure out who is a rival by counting numbers in a spread sheet. It’s something you gotta feel in your bones.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - OutsiderFan - 09-29-2018

(09-29-2018, 06:28 AM)CTcard Wrote:
(09-29-2018, 05:04 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Any team you play every year has to be considered a rival, but there are degrees, like:

1. Are your games meaningful in the context of settling championships?

It’s all personal taste of course, but I would state that a true rival is one for whom the games are meaningful even when they have nothing to do with settling championships.

Further, I’d say one can’t figure out who is a rival by counting numbers in a spread sheet. It’s something you gotta feel in your bones.

Truth be told, other than Cal - whom I root for equally as Stanford - I have no love for any of the teams Stanford plays annually. I have no love for any Pac-12 programs not named Cal or Stanford, but some of them I like more than others. My assigning a number to the various variables that make one a rival is actually to help me sort them out based on some objective assessing. But I'll admit, it can be fluid based on the ups and downs of programs. USC is public enemy number one for me and always will be. They should really be in their own category. The rest are not nearly as contemptible, but I still don't like them very much.

Sure, Washington and Stanford have had some close games lately, but historically, they haven't, and Washington and Stanford really only last season were on par with each other in a meaningful game, and that was the first one I can ever remember Stanford winning.

Cal has the potential to be the greatest Stanford rival, but they have not carried their end of the bargain for quite a while.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - Seascapemiri - 09-29-2018

(09-29-2018, 05:10 AM)winflop Wrote: I'm a traditionalist. I will always see Cal as our rival.

But I take greater pleasure in beating U$C & UFDG because they are more prestigious programs

+1000

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - Langdude - 09-29-2018

I always want to beat Cal, even if it is ping pong or a sing-off. I guess I enjoy beating SC and UCLA at everything, too, but I have a special hatred for Cal.

-m.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - gocard14 - 09-29-2018

If we are going to count a double point for Notre Dame in recruiting, I'd give a double point to number 5 for the weenies. There is a lot more history and animosity then any other rivalry, even if the point spreads and meaningfulness hasn't been equal to the ND or USC games.

I'd agree with a ranking of USC > UCB=ND > Oregon > everyone else.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - FarmDad.01 - 09-29-2018

When I grew up in metro NY in the 1950s, there was very little televised football, either college or pro. Yet U. South Bend's games were often carried (probably because of the city's famed "Subway Alumni" who, after powerhouse Fordham dropped the sport, transferred allegiance to another Catholic college). How obnoxious was the hype in the media capital? Paul Hornung won the '56 High-Step Stiff-Arm. Great player, yes -- but that year his team went 2-8. By that token, Ernie Banks should've been NL MVP most years he played. I went to UMich and did not find it difficult to loathe the Lucky Charms. Finally, re: parity in academic excellence: My Stanford kid is a graduate of NY's Stuyvesant High. If any of her classmates applied to U. South Bend as anything other than a safety school, they kept it to themselves.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - Austroturf - 09-29-2018

(09-29-2018, 05:04 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Any team you play every year has to be considered a rival, but there are degrees, like:

1. Are your games meaningful in the context of settling championships?
2. Do you recruit against each other?
3. What's your proximity to each other?
4. How even are the results?
5. Are there incidents that have inflamed either side, that have happened beyond the actual final score results?

Going by this measure, I'd rank them like this, giving 1 pt to each team in terms of Stanford rivalry intensity:

1. USC - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - 5 pts: It's a clean sweep for the Condoms. This is easily Stanford's greatest rival. Games are very meaningful, they recruit against each other, NorCal-SoCal, they are usually tight games, they trade wins, what's your deal / USC cheating in sports and elsewhere.

2. Notre Dame - 1, 2 (double), 4, 5 - 4pts: The games have been quite meaningful, particularly for ND playoff chances that Stanford has snuffed out 2/3 times in last decade, they recruit hard against each other, the games are usually super close, and Stanford fans really hate Notre Dame claiming parity with Stanford academically, while still adopting a win at all costs attitude Stanford fans loathe, manifested in perception of Brian Kelly.

Note: It probably shouldn't be a surprise that the top two are private schools. There is something about this that makes the rivalry with these two just a bit more meaningful due to Stanford also being private.

3. Oregon - 1, 4, 5 - 3 pts: Meaningful games, usually tight/nobody dominates, Stanford fans don't like the criminals Oregon recruits. You might say Oregon is more important than Notre Dame, but I guarantee most Stanford fans would pick beating Notre Dame as more satisfying than beating the Ducks, if they could only have one win between the two.

4. Cal - 2, 3, 5 - 3 pts: Recruit against each other, 30 miles apart, Cal-Stanford academic rivalry. These teams haven't been consistently good enough at the same time, and their games really have never settled anything in the Pac-12.

5. Washington - 1, 2 - 2 pts: They do settle championships, recruit a lot of the same players in PNW, but they haven't been close games or really been any kind of back and forth, aren't close, and Washington has always been pretty clean.

6. UCLA - 2, 3 - 2 pts: Recruit against each other, NorCal-SoCal, but the games have largely settled nothing over the years and Stanford has ownage over last decade.

7. WSU - 1 - 1 pt: The Cougs have won some games against Stanford lately, and some have been important in terms of settling division, but this is just not firing anyone up as a rival like the others.

8. OSU - 0 - 0 pts: Sure the Beavs are in the North, but I don't ever remember these teams playing for anything meaningful ever. I'd imagine the Beavs occupy a similar place fo most Pac-12 programs.

This is a very good attempt at quantifying a rivalry. There is one other factor that needs to be considered: how geographically-interwoven are the fan-bases. In the internet-connected world, this may begin to pale as a factor, but will certainly not go away. The desire to beat a rival is certainly impacted by the local bragging rights accrued with the victory. If you meet multiple Cal graduates at the office coffee machine in the morning, a victory against the Bears will suddenly be much more important than beating the Domers, whose fans you will most likely never see. Plenty of Stanford graduates live in LA, which is teeming with U$C and Bruin fans. That next neighborhood gathering will be a lot nicer if, as a Stanford alum, you can point to two straight victories against these teams.

Early on in this decade, Oregon fans were asked whether they considered Stanford a rival. The answer: no, these are just two teams that happen to be good at the same time. Now, in 2018, I think the answer would be slightly different. Yes, the Huskies are the team they really gun for every year; but Stanford has thumped them often enough to be more prominent on the radar rivalry.

As for Irish fans, they may need another ten years or so to consider Stanford a true rival. If we continue to make life difficult for them and rob them of enough chances at CFP slots or prestigious bowls, they may reconsider our status as a rival.

This is also generational thing. Some rivals are perennial (Cal-Stanford, USC-UCLA, Notre Dame-USC, Michigan-Ohio State come to mind); some may be big to older fans, but meaningless to younger fans. The Stanford-Cal rivalry has certainly lost some of its luster recently: maybe it will be revitalized in the next decade, but it was rather one-sided in the first decade of this century and flipped in the second decade. The Stanford-USC rivalry, by contrast, has picked up in intensity. What used to be a programmed loss for Stanford has now become a true back and forth, with Stanford maintaining the edge the last ten years.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - BostonCard - 09-29-2018

The big three are Cal, USC, and Notre Dame. Unfortunately the lack of competitiveness with Cal goes back to the Willinghams era. The sheriff won all 7 of the games he coached against Cal. Then we had a down period during the Buddy/Walt era, where Cal won five in a row, and 7 of 8, and we’ve won eight in a row since then. In fact since 1984, Stanford is 23-10-1.

Sorry, I’ve been

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - JJJ - 09-29-2018

(09-29-2018, 01:48 PM)BostonCard Wrote: The big three are Cal, USC, and Notre Dame. Unfortunately the lack of competitiveness with Cal goes back to the Willinghams era. The sheriff won all 7 of the games he coached against Cal. Then we had a down period during the Buddy/Walt era, where Cal won five in a row, and 7 of 8, and we’ve won eight in a row since then. In fact since 1984, Stanford is 23-

...are you going to make me look it up? :)

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - SUBuddha - 09-29-2018

I have said it before and I will say it again, my father taught me early that "We hate the husky's, Cal is the rival, USC is the Enemy and ND is the devil."

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - CTcard - 09-29-2018

(09-29-2018, 04:07 PM)SUBuddha Wrote: I have said it before and I will say it again, my father taught me early that "We hate the husky's, Cal is the rival, USC is the Enemy and ND is the devil."

My 10 year old explained to me that the Axis of Evil is cal, $C, and und.
Don't know where he could have picked that up.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - yvonne - 09-29-2018

(09-29-2018, 05:04 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: 3. Oregon - 1, 4, 5 - 3 pts: Meaningful games, usually tight/nobody dominates, Stanford fans don't like the criminals Oregon recruits. You might say Oregon is more important than Notre Dame, but I guarantee most Stanford fans would pick beating Notre Dame as more satisfying than beating the Ducks, if they could only have one win between the two.

4. Cal - 2, 3, 5 - 3 pts: Recruit against each other, 30 miles apart, Cal-Stanford academic rivalry. These teams haven't been consistently good enough at the same time, and their games really have never settled anything in the Pac-12.

Thus confirming to everyone on the board that OutsiderFan is, indeed, an outsider.

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - Mick - 10-01-2018

(09-29-2018, 09:50 AM)FarmDad.01 Wrote: When I grew up in metro NY in the 1950s, there was very little televised football, either college or pro. Yet U. South Bend's games were often carried (probably because of the city's famed "Subway Alumni" who, after powerhouse Fordham dropped the sport, transferred allegiance to another Catholic college). How obnoxious was the hype in the media capital? Paul Hornung won the '56 High-Step Stiff-Arm. Great player, yes -- but that year his team went 2-8. By that token, Ernie Banks should've been NL MVP most years he played. I went to UMich and did not find it difficult to loathe the Lucky Charms. Finally, re: parity in academic excellence: My Stanford kid is a graduate of NY's Stuyvesant High. If any of her classmates applied to U. South Bend as anything other than a safety school, they kept it to themselves.

Interesting take. I attended SCU (sort of the West Coast Fordham) in the dying days of its football program, but I had attended Stanford football games since 1969, and continued to do so in college. Who wouldn't want to watch Plunkett and Elway play?

Both my sons attended a Jesuit high school. They applied to Georgetown (I think their school's President and senior Jesuit had more to do with that than any other factor), but I don't think Noter Dame entered their minds at all. If they didn't go to Princeton, they would have ended up at UCLA. They both toured Cal, but essentially said it was their last choice -- not because they disliked the school, but both wanted to get away from Northern California. I couldn't get either to complete their Stanford applications, since they were accepted early and Stanford's supplemental application was quite extensive.

Neither of my sons considered USC. My oldest son told me he'd rather go to a JC than USC. My younger son had toured the USC campus for less than ten minutes when he turned around and started walking back to the car. I said, "Wait, why don't you look at their Public Policy building (his interest at the time), it's right here." Without breaking stride, he calls over his shoulder "Feel free to look, but I'm not going here."

RE: Are we rivals? The ND view.... - Phogge - 10-01-2018

I’m an outsider too and I don’t hate anyone. However I have always enjoyed seeing Kal get beat even when my cousin was starting for them alongside Ted Albrect. Don’t particularly enjoy the sense of false entitlement at SC and the Domer school so yeah, kick their azz.

The SI/SH rivalry in San Francisco was as fierce as they come but I don’t hate them and some of my best friends were Irish players. I did enjoy beating them.

Hate fades when you become a septuagenarian.