Kickoff returns - Printable Version
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Kickoff returns - winflop - 10-02-2018
This is not a knock on a player - this is a knock on the coaches.
Why is Cameron Scarlett returning kicks? I call him the "surrender monkey" kick returner. He doesn't have very good lateral movement and he doesn't have breakaway speed. There is zero chance he is going to take one to the house and very little chance he ever gets across midfield.
Again, this is a coaching decision and I think it's a very poor one.
RE: Kickoff returns - 2006alum - 10-02-2018
No views on Scarlett, but speaking of kickoff returns, an interesting study found that when the Ivy League altered their rules related to kickoffs, it substantially reduced concussion rates. I wonder if the FBS generally will consider these pretty simple reforms?
RE: Kickoff returns - SamuelMcF - 10-02-2018
Last year:
• 1,008 yards on 39 kickoff returns
• 1,008 combined kick return yards ranked first among Pac-12 players and second nationally
• 25.8 yards/kickoff return
• Second among Pac-12 players and 18th nationally
• First nationally with 12 kickoff returns of 30 or more yards
The numbers tell me he's very dependable and quite good at KR, though not a home run threat. The blocking/scheming this year on KR has been leagues worse than last year, and I think we should be fair catching/touching it back every time.
RE: Kickoff returns - CTcard - 10-02-2018
(10-02-2018, 06:29 PM)2006alum Wrote: No views on Scarlett, but speaking of kickoff returns, an interesting study found that when the Ivy League altered their rules related to kickoffs, it substantially reduced concussion rates. I wonder if the FBS generally will consider these pretty simple reforms?
If I understand correctly what the Ivies have done, then the FBS has mostly embraced these pretty simple reforms.
The Ivies moved the kickoff line up five yards to the 40 and made touchbacks come out to the 25.
FBS has the 25 yard line for a touchback, but kicks off 5 yards further back up the field. But FBS has also added the fair catch equals a touchback rule (which I am not sure I have seen used yet).
The approach does strike me as slightly odd, but perhaps I am thinking in too black and white a manner.
It would seem to me that the kickoff return either falls above or below an acceptable risk level for injury. If above, get rid of it. If below, allow it to be part of the game with rules aimed primarily at the right competitive balance.
Adjusting the rules so you end up getting rid of most of them seems odd, and would seem to set you up for lawsuits from those who do get injured on the play (the rule change being evidence that you know it is too dangerous).
RE: Kickoff returns - BostonCard - 10-02-2018
(10-02-2018, 06:25 PM)winflop Wrote: This is not a knock on a player - this is a knock on the coaches.
Why is Cameron Scarlett returning kicks? I call him the "surrender monkey" kick returner. He doesn't have very good lateral movement and he doesn't have breakaway speed. There is zero chance he is going to take one to the house and very little chance he ever gets across midfield.
Again, this is a coaching decision and I think it's a very poor one.
Here's why:
http://www.cfbstats.com/2017/leader/905/player/split01/category05/sort01.html
Cameron Scarlett was the second best kick-off returner in the conference (in terms of yards per return) last year (1/10 of a yard behind the leader). He also returned more kick-offs than any other player, meaning either we had a crappier defense than any other team in the league and gave up more scores (not true; at 68 our opponents kicked off an average number of times compared to other teams' opponents), or we were lucky and faced kickers who kicked the ball more poorly than average (unlikely), or, we were more likely to return a kick than other teams (bingo!), which means that Scarlett was returning deeper kicks rather than taking a touchback compared to our opponents.
There is nothing wrong with Scarlett returning kicks, or, there was nothing wrong with him returning kicks last year.
Unless he is injured or he suddenly forgot how to return kicks, the problem seems to be that our return game is not setting him up for success like it did last year.
There are 11 guys on the field, and while we tend to focus on the one guy with the oblong ball in his hands, the success of any play depends as much if not more on the the other 10 players doing their job.
The bottom line is that you are correct in assigning blame to the coaches, but it is not for putting the "wrong" player back there to return footballs, it's for not getting the other 10 guys to set up a return for him correctly.
BC
RE: Kickoff returns - qwerty49 - 10-02-2018
I doubt there’s a trackable stat for this, but first contact on our KORs seems to be happening consistently between the 10 and 15 yd lines. That seems 3-4 yds deeper than in previous years.
As a RB, Scarlett seemed more susceptible to first contact than Love and certainly to McCaffrey. Ankle tackles seemed to get him a lot.
RE: Kickoff returns - Goose - 10-03-2018
(10-02-2018, 10:09 PM)qwerty49 Wrote: As a RB, Scarlett seemed more susceptible to first contact than Love and certainly to McCaffrey. Ankle tackles seemed to get him a lot.If so, that is certainly a bit odd. He is bigger than both of them by 10 to 15 pounds, and is considered our "short yardage" back. If he is more susceptible to first contact, that won't work too well.
RE: Kickoff returns - winflop - 10-03-2018
This is not about this year or scheme or anything like that. This is about a lineup decision to put a guy back there who has zero potential to score and almost zero potential to cross midfield
You can give me all the stats you want about average return, etc. I think you have to have someone back there who at least has the POTENTIAL to take it to the house. It's a brobdingnagian momentum changer and even a great return can set up the offense with a short field and it's being totally cast aside.
RE: Kickoff returns - BostonCard - 10-03-2018
(10-03-2018, 08:20 PM)winflop Wrote: This is not about this year or scheme or anything like that. This is about a lineup decision to put a guy back there who has zero potential to score and almost zero potential to cross midfield
You can give me all the stats you want about average return, etc. I think you have to have someone back there who at least has the POTENTIAL to take it to the house. It's a of immense proportions momentum changer and even a great return can set up the offense with a short field and it's being totally cast aside.
McCaffrey in two years had exactly one kickoff return for a TD. Hell, last year only one pac-12 player returned a kickoff for a touchdown in the entire conference. In every year I looked, the median number of kickoff returns for a touchdown are zero, and the total number across the conference tends to cluster around three to four.
The bottom line is that while you may long for the potential of a KOR for a TD, not being able to take one to the house is the rule rather than the exception.
Moreover, I still maintain that long kickoff returns (including touchdowns) have as much to do with the other 10 guys (and usually bad coverage by the kicking team) as they do for the returner.
BC
RE: Kickoff returns - Goose - 10-03-2018
(10-03-2018, 09:08 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Moreover, I still maintain that long kickoff returns (including touchdowns) have as much to do with the other 10 guys (and usually bad coverage by the kicking team) as they do for the returner.I agree with this idea. The most important characteristics of a kickoff return man, IMHO, are the following:
BC
1) Doesn't fumble.
2) Makes good decisions about when to take a touchback and when to attack.
3) Uses his blockers well, especially at the start of the return in order to prevent a < 25 YL result.
Scarlett does those things. If you want to criticize him, I would say he may just be a tad to aggressive and returns kicks he shouldn't.
For years, coaches have put really fast guys back to return kicks. If they get into the open, look out. However, the game has evolved so much that it is improbable that will happen. Most kickoffs go deep into the end zone. Those that don't try to pin the returner to the sideline. The kicking teams are coached heavily on lane control and keeping contain. As BC said, it takes good blocking by the KOR team and almost certainly a breakdown by the kicking team to get a long return. Scarlett has done a pretty good job, better last year than this. Are there other guys we could put back there? Sure. Are they better? I don't know for sure, but I expect that they have tried it in practice and decided Scarlett was their best choice.
RE: Kickoff returns - fullmetal - 10-04-2018
Goose nailed it. First, you must have good hands. Second, you must have good hands. Get it? Irwin as a punt returner and Scarlett as a kick returner have the hands. Also, you don't want that KR wear and tear on Bryce Love's ankles. Scarlett isn't terrible -- he uses his blockers and gives a decent return. I'm not worried about home run potential if you're consistently hitting doubles with Scarlett. Plus, you do want to give the defense time to rest.
RE: Kickoff returns - SamuelMcF - 10-05-2018
(10-04-2018, 11:31 PM)fullmetal Wrote: Goose nailed it. First, you must have good hands. Second, you must have good hands. Get it? Irwin as a punt returner and Scarlett as a kick returner have the hands. Also, you don't want that KR wear and tear on Bryce Love's ankles. Scarlett isn't terrible -- he uses his blockers and gives a decent return. I'm not worried about home run potential if you're consistently hitting doubles with Scarlett. Plus, you do want to give the defense time to rest.The issue this season so far is we've been consistently grounding out when actually returning, not hitting doubles. Again why I believe the scheme/blocking isn't up to par.
RE: Kickoff returns - Goose - 10-05-2018
(10-05-2018, 01:27 PM)SamuelMcF Wrote: The issue this season so far is we've been consistently grounding out when actually returning, not hitting doubles. Again why I believe the scheme/blocking isn't up to par.Tend to agree. I am also sure that the opposition looked at our numbers from last year and made it a point to not let it continue. Coupled with our less effective blocking, you get what we have. I also believe that Scarlett desperately wants to make something happen and has returned a couple of kicks he probably should not have. Normally, the other return man is responsible to kill the play, so it may not be on Scarlett, but if you get a high kick that is three yards deep, you should return it only if you see something you like.
RE: Kickoff returns - winflop - 10-06-2018
(10-04-2018, 11:31 PM)fullmetal Wrote: Goose nailed it. First, you must have good hands. Second, you must have good hands. Get it? Irwin as a punt returner and Scarlett as a kick returner have the hands. Also, you don't want that KR wear and tear on Bryce Love's ankles. Scarlett isn't terrible -- he uses his blockers and gives a decent return. I'm not worried about home run potential if you're consistently hitting doubles with Scarlett. Plus, you do want to give the defense time to rest.
If I thought Scarlett could get across midfield (my definition of a double) I might agree. I see the potential for only singles. His longest return in 2017 was 47 yards.
I agree that not putting the ball on the ground is really important, but it's not the only priority.