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Laces Out! - Renaissance Man - 10-07-2019

Now that we are all feeling a little bit better, I want to ask a question that has been bothering me all season long.  Is there honestly nobody on the roster who can put the ball down for a field goal with the laces facing forward?

RE: Laces Out! - BobK - 10-07-2019

Doesn't 3 for 3 work for you? Just asking

RE: Laces Out! - Renaissance Man - 10-07-2019

(10-07-2019, 11:08 AM)BobK Wrote:  Doesn't 3 for 3 work for you?  Just asking

Absolutely. But all of the misses this year have been with side facing laces, and one of the makes on Saturday was with the laces facing directly at Toner.  However, 3 for 3 this week, so it is not an issue--I don't know why all of the other teams bother with it.

RE: Laces Out! - cardcrimson - 10-07-2019

(10-07-2019, 11:44 AM)Renaissance Man Wrote:  
(10-07-2019, 11:08 AM)BobK Wrote:  Doesn't 3 for 3 work for you?  Just asking

Absolutely. But all of the misses this year have been with side facing laces, and one of the makes on Saturday was with the laces facing directly at Toner.  However, 3 for 3 this week, so it is not an issue--I don't know why all of the other teams bother with it.
He kicked the laces at least once against OSU as well.

RE: Laces Out! - Goose - 10-07-2019

(10-07-2019, 10:41 AM)Renaissance Man Wrote:  Now that we are all felling a little bit better, I want to ask a question that has been bothering me all season long.  Is there honestly nobody on the roster who can put the ball down for a field goal with the laces facing forward?
+1 This has been an ongoing issue. Toner may make it anyway, but this is the kind of "simple" thing that can and should be corrected. It is not controversial or a judgement call. Laces forward is the requirement. You want the ball to be as predictable as possible in flight.

RE: Laces Out! - bbm233 - 10-07-2019

Bailey wasn't much better when he was the holder. Toner must not be impacted because he has been kicking the laces since he arrived.

RE: Laces Out! - BostonCard - 10-07-2019

(10-07-2019, 04:28 PM)bbm233 Wrote:  Bailey wasn't much better when he was the holder. Toner must not be impacted because he has been kicking the laces since he arrived.

Generally, getting the laces in the correct position is more of an issue for the long snapper than the holder, as per this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/sports/football/a-meshing-of-talents-on-every-field-goal-attempt.html

Quote:The nearly perfect field-goal snap spins backward with the ball making two and a half revolutions from DeOssie’s hands to the holder, who is kneeling 8 yards behind the snapper. Trial and error has taught DeOssie that two and a half revolutions assures that the ball will arrive at Weatherford’s hands with the laces facing the sky, which makes it easier for Weatherford to catch it and immediately place it on the ground with the laces facing the goal post. If the laces do not face the target, the kicked ball can curve unpredictably.

According to the article, (at least in the NFL) the laces arrive in the "correct" position 85% of the time, and the holder has to correct the position 15% of the time.

Quote:“If you think of the sky as noon on a clock, sometimes the laces are at 10 o’clock or 2 o’clock,” Weatherford said. “I turn them in the air before I put the ball down. Some guys will put the ball down and then spin the laces toward the target, but that can freak out a kicker. I put it down static and let him get a clean look at it.”

I tried to look up whether anyone has done a study of the impact of lace position on field goal accuracy, but I didn't find anything.  I wonder whether the laces have a real impact or if it is a combination of its impact on the psychology of the kicker and just one of those things that everyone "knows" is true but really isn't.

BC

RE: Laces Out! - fullmetal - 10-07-2019

Robie Gould is currently being victimized by a new long snapper and rookie holder combo...I bet he'd rather have that axis/position over laces (rotation) any day.

RE: Laces Out! - qwerty49 - 10-07-2019

Back in the day the holder was typically a backup QB. Now usually the P, I guess that started in the NFL not wanting to “waste” a roster spot.

But I really don’t see the logic in having a guy who focuses mostly on his feet do work that is mainly with his hands. After all, the angles of receiving a punt and placekick snap are different.

RE: Laces Out! - Mick - 10-07-2019

(10-07-2019, 06:42 PM)fullmetal Wrote:  Robie Gould is currently being victimized by a new long snapper and rookie holder combo...I bet he'd rather have that axis/position over laces (rotation) any day.

Gould is one for four tonight, in an otherwise fantastic game for the 49ers. Stanford's Solomon Thomas had a nice tackle near the line.

RE: Laces Out! - CompSci87 - 10-07-2019

(10-07-2019, 07:59 PM)qwerty49 Wrote:  Back in the day the holder was typically a backup QB. Now usually the P, I guess that started in the NFL not wanting to “waste” a roster spot.

But I really don’t see the logic in having a guy who focuses mostly on his feet do work that is mainly with his hands. After all, the angles of receiving a punt and placekick snap are different.

I think another part of the logic is to have the pure special teams guys (kicker, punter, and long snapper) off to the side and working together as a unit, leaving the backup QB free to work with the offense.

RE: Laces Out! - helix - 10-07-2019

(10-07-2019, 04:28 PM)bbm233 Wrote:  Bailey wasn't much better when he was the holder. Toner must not be impacted because he has been kicking the laces since he arrived.

I disagree. At least in his last couple seasons, Jake was fantastic at getting the laces out of the way.

RE: Laces Out! - BostonCard - 10-07-2019

(10-07-2019, 10:02 PM)helix Wrote:  
(10-07-2019, 04:28 PM)bbm233 Wrote:  Bailey wasn't much better when he was the holder. Toner must not be impacted because he has been kicking the laces since he arrived.

I disagree. At least in his last couple seasons, Jake was fantastic at getting the laces out of the way.

Except, again, most of the responsibility for setting the field goal up correctly is on the long snapper, not the holder, and our long snapper is the same long snapper we've used for the last three years.

BC

RE: Laces Out! - Mick - 10-08-2019

(10-07-2019, 10:22 PM)BostonCard Wrote:  
(10-07-2019, 10:02 PM)helix Wrote:  
(10-07-2019, 04:28 PM)bbm233 Wrote:  Bailey wasn't much better when he was the holder. Toner must not be impacted because he has been kicking the laces since he arrived.

I disagree. At least in his last couple seasons, Jake was fantastic at getting the laces out of the way.

Except, again, most of the responsibility for setting the field goal up correctly is on the long snapper, not the holder, and our long snapper is the same long snapper we've used for the last three years.

BC

Agreed.  The Niners' long snapper, Kyle Nelson, is out for two more games on his 10 game PED suspension (his second in his NFL career).  It really showed last night when Robbie Gould went 1 for 4 on field goals.  Long snapper was Garrison Sanborn, who replaced Jon Condo, who replaced another guy, who replaced Kyle Nelson.  Critical spot, only 49er failure last night.

RE: Laces Out! - Nan3cy - 10-08-2019

Seems like a real conditioning problem if your long snapper needs PEDs...

RE: Laces Out! - Mick - 10-08-2019

(10-08-2019, 07:40 AM)Nan3cy Wrote:  Seems like a real conditioning problem if your long snapper needs PEDs...

Yes.  This will be his eighth year in the league, the last five of which were with San Francisco.  Why he felt the PEDs I don't know, but he's been the long snapper the full time.  He weighs 240, probably wanted to withstand the punishment more easily.