OT: Myles Garrett - Printable Version

OT: Myles Garrett - Printable Version

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OT: Myles Garrett - lex24 - 11-15-2019

suspended for at least the rest of the year. I think he should be arrested for assault. Taking off a guys helmet and then hittiting him over the head with it hard is not in anyway shape or form part of “the game”. It’s outside the bounds of the sport and I think is actionable as criminal assault.

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - VFRing98 - 11-15-2019

And that was DeCastro pinning him down in the end zone. TWU!

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - shakrat - 11-15-2019

As I see the video, when Garrett and Rudoph go down together, it's Rudoph who first tries to get Garrett's helmet off (1:20 in the below video) and then runs after Garrett as DeCastro tries to hustle him away. Garrett was wrong to retaliate and escalate, but Rudoph was acting like a punk. I especially didn't appreciate him throwing his arms up, like "where's the flag?" (1:36) when he's the one who started this particular episode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eef-l5pcEIk

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - SamuelMcF - 11-15-2019

[tweet]https://twitter.com/schwartzsteins/status/1195320477083983873[/tweet]
Lol, love this.

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - Phogge - 11-15-2019

Marichal should have been arrested. Probably Adcock too when he went after Reuben Gomez. Maybe even Gibson multiple times but no cop except Dirty Harry would have tried.

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - ColoradoTree - 11-15-2019

Obviously, what Garrett did is abhorrent and he deserves a lengthy suspension, and on that we all agree.

But the question of whether what he did is outside the bounds of the sport is another question. The NFL rulebook envisions just this sort of aggression in Rule 12, art. 17: "A player may not use a helmet that is no longer worn by anyone as a weapon to strike, swing at, or throw at an opponent." The penalty is 15 yards and automatic disqualification for the player at issue, and if it's by the defense, it's also an automatic first down.

So, this is something that the NFL considered would happen, and they put a provision in the rulebook to address it. Yes, it's outside the bounds of the sport, but so is throwing a punch (two punches in a game gets you automatically tossed, though refs can toss you after one if they deem if "flagrant").

I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of criminal charges coming into play in the vast majority of on-field situations, given the assumption of risk of contact that each player undertakes. Yes, this is far outside acceptable behavior, and thus, reasonably anticipated risk, but so are lots of penalties related to overaggressive behavior on the field. The fact that the NFL anticipated this happening and set a penalty for it in rulebook suggests to me that it's not so far outside the bounds of the sport that it warrants bringing criminal law into things. That said, there are certainly on-field extremes I can envision where I'd absolutely agree that criminal charges are warranted. I'm just not sure this crosses that line into conduct that belongs in a criminal courts.

And in terms of who instigated it, you can easily argue that Garrett did by dragging Rudolph down when he saw the ball get passed. Not the initial wrap-up, but then dragging him to the ground when he knew the ball was out. But ultimately, it doesn't matter much who starts a fight, it matters who uses the weapon. A QB getting pissed about a defensive lineman taking him down in what he saw as a bit late? That happens. Some extracurricular pushing and shoving? Happens. Garrett could have gotten up, laughed it off and gotten back to the line of scrimmage. Rudolph may have crossed a line of his own by grabbing at Garrett's helmet, but to that point, Rudolph hadn't hurt Garrett at all. Instead, the man who was far bigger and stronger ripped off Rudolph's helmet, and even where DeCastro was in the middle, he chose to do something that could have seriously injured Rudolph or even ended his career. (That helmet is damn heavy, and Rudolph has a concussion history.) Garrett could have tossed the helmet aside after he ripped it off. Instead, he used it as a weapon.

I don't think the rest of this season will be the end of it. I think they'll wait and see whether the Browns make the playoffs, and probably add 6 games or so to start next season. They could suspend him for all of next season and I'd be on board with that. If Rudolph had been seriously injured (like Steve Moore was after Todd Bertuzzi sucked punched him in the back of the head), I'd cheer on his civil lawsuit against Garrett, and I'd probably feel differently about a criminal case, whether that's fair or not. Garrett should pay for this, but given that Rudolph seems like he's OK, I'm not sure Garrett should pay for this with his liberty. (He's incredibly lucky in that sense. It's really easy to imagine Rudolph getting knocked out and bleeding profusely from a hit like that. Or worse--imagine a man as strong as Garrett hitting your head with a five-pound blunt object. If worse had happened, you can rest assured the suspension would have been far longer, and there would have been other civil or criminal penalties. But the degree of harm matters for what should come next outside the NFL discipline process.)

rich_matta2@yahoo.com - CardinalSagehen - 11-15-2019

I'm sitting in an office right now. If two people got into a physical altercation here, they'd probably both be fired on the spot. (Of course, they'd still have the option to seek employment in their line of work at another company, unlike in the NFL.)

Football is different - it's a violent sport and fights are to be expected. They even occur among teammates during practice. I'm not saying that it's okay, or that there shouldn't be a punishment, but Garrett's punishment struck me as a bit too severe. Ray Rice gets two games for beating the crap out of a woman, while Garrett gets half a season or more for escalating a fight in the heat of battle (albeit very egregiously) with a grown man who was kind of asking for it.

Count me among those who think that Rudolph was acting like a punk and deserved a strong rebuke and maybe a one-game suspension. It takes two to tango.

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - Snorlax94 - 11-15-2019

I think Garrett deserves a 10 game suspension, but given the fact that Brady got only a 4 game suspension for cheating, witness tampering, and destruction of evidence, with no criminal charges, the proportional penalty for Garrett would also be 4 games, which is way too little.

Pouncey kicked Garrett’s helmet while Garrett was on the ground. Granted, Garrett’s helmet was still on, but kicking someone’s head while they are on the ground is incredibly dangerous. He, too, should be suspended.

The only person who did everything exactly right was David DeCastro.

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - cardcrimson - 11-15-2019

(11-15-2019, 08:03 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote: Pouncey kicked Garrett’s helmet while Garrett was on the ground. Granted, Garrett’s helmet was still on, but kicking someone’s head while they are on the ground is incredibly dangerous. He, too, should be suspended.

He was. For three games, I believe.

(11-15-2019, 03:57 PM)ColoradoTree Wrote: And in terms of who instigated it, you can easily argue that Garrett did by dragging Rudolph down when he saw the ball get passed. Not the initial wrap-up, but then dragging him to the ground when he knew the ball was out. But ultimately, it doesn't matter much who starts a fight, it matters who uses the weapon. A QB getting pissed about a defensive lineman taking him down in what he saw as a bit late? That happens. Some extracurricular pushing and shoving? Happens. Garrett could have gotten up, laughed it off and gotten back to the line of scrimmage. Rudolph may have crossed a line of his own by grabbing at Garrett's helmet, but to that point, Rudolph hadn't hurt Garrett at all. Instead, the man who was far bigger and stronger ripped off Rudolph's helmet, and even where DeCastro was in the middle, he chose to do something that could have seriously injured Rudolph or even ended his career. (That helmet is damn heavy, and Rudolph has a concussion history.) Garrett could have tossed the helmet aside after he ripped it off. Instead, he used it as a weapon.

Agree completely. For anyone blaming Rudolph is woefully misguided. I'd use stronger terms, but hey, I'd be accused of violating the Cardboard rules.

(11-15-2019, 12:19 PM)shakrat Wrote: As I see the video, when Garrett and Rudoph go down together, it's Rudoph who first tries to get Garrett's helmet off (1:20 in the below video) and then runs after Garrett as DeCastro tries to hustle him away. Garrett was wrong to retaliate and escalate, but Rudoph was acting like a punk. I especially didn't appreciate him throwing his arms up, like "where's the flag?" (1:36) when he's the one who started this particular episode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eef-l5pcEIk

Go down together? I think you meant to say, when Garrett hit Rudolph late, then body slammed him into the turf. . . .

Just so we're clear, in your opinion, acting like a punk warrants having someone deliberately attack you with a deadly weapon. What on earth are they teaching on college campuses, including Stanford, these days?

lex24 - lex24 - 11-15-2019

AYYKM. He hit him in the head HARD with a helmet. Could have killed him. Too severe? I think he should be arrested. (BTW - there has been assault charges brought against NHL players).
I dont give a sh-t what Rudolph did. The “response” was criminal.

As for Ray Rice, he should have been prosecuted. But I fail to see how his acts have anything to do with this.

quote="CardinalSagehen" pid='260974' dateline='1573864031']
I'm sitting in an office right now. If two people got into a physical altercation here, they'd probably both be fired on the spot. (Of course, they'd still have the option to seek employment in their line of work at another company, unlike in the NFL.)

Football is different - it's a violent sport and fights are to be expected. They even occur among teammates during practice. I'm not saying that it's okay, or that there shouldn't be a punishment, but Garrett's punishment struck me as a bit too severe. Ray Rice gets two games for beating the crap out of a woman, while Garrett gets half a season or more for escalating a fight in the heat of battle (albeit very egregiously) with a grown man who was kind of asking for it.

Count me among those who think that Rudolph was acting like a punk and deserved a strong rebuke and maybe a one-game suspension. It takes two to tango.
[/quote]

RE: lex24 - needle - 11-15-2019

Quote:Football is different - it's a violent sport and fights are to be expected. They even occur among teammates during practice. I'm not saying that it's okay, or that there shouldn't be a punishment, but Garrett's punishment struck me as a bit too severe. Ray Rice gets two games for beating the crap out of a woman, while Garrett gets half a season or more for escalating a fight in the heat of battle (albeit very egregiously) with a grown man who was kind of asking for it.

I agree 100%. This is nowhere close to a federal case (you know what I mean), especially considering that Rudolph a.) was the first to grab helmet and b.) was charging at Garrett at the time the helmet got swung.

I would like to see Garrett's suspension reduced to four games. What he did, while dangerous, was not as flat out vicious as what Albert Haynesworth did (stomping on a player's head while the other player was on the ground defenseless). Haynesworth got six games for that borderline criminal act.

RE: lex24 - cardcrimson - 11-15-2019

(11-15-2019, 09:27 PM)needle Wrote:
Quote:Football is different - it's a violent sport and fights are to be expected. They even occur among teammates during practice. I'm not saying that it's okay, or that there shouldn't be a punishment, but Garrett's punishment struck me as a bit too severe. Ray Rice gets two games for beating the crap out of a woman, while Garrett gets half a season or more for escalating a fight in the heat of battle (albeit very egregiously) with a grown man who was kind of asking for it.

I agree 100%. This is nowhere close to a federal case (you know what I mean), especially considering that Rudolph a.) was the first to grab helmet and b.) was charging at Garrett at the time the helmet got swung.

I would like to see Garrett's suspension reduced to four games. What he did, while dangerous, was not as flat out vicious as what Albert Haynesworth did (stomping on a player's head while the other player was on the ground defenseless). Haynesworth got six games for that borderline criminal act.

Damon Killian are we? Or perhaps Jonathan E.?

RE: lex24 - CardinalSagehen - 11-15-2019

(11-15-2019, 08:51 PM)lex24 Wrote: AYYKM. He hit him in the head HARD with a helmet. Could have killed him. Too severe? I think he should be arrested. (BTW - there has been assault charges brought against NHL players).
I dont give a sh-t what Rudolph did. The “response” was criminal.

I didn't see any of this last night. I took another look and I'll retract my point that Garrett got a bit too much of a penalty. I was wrong there. Saying he used deadly force is a bit dramatic, though.

I still think Rudolph deserved a penalty - much lighter than Garrett's, but he deserved something for being involved in escalating a very ugly scene. He is not blameless.

In general, NFL penalties seem fairly arbitrary and inconsistent.

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - Canalejas - 11-15-2019

Garret obviously overreacted at every part. First retaliating after the initial helmet grab by Rudolph and later swinging the helmet when Rudolph re-engaged by charging at Garret. But I don't think the tackle that started it all was late. I don't see why people are calling it a late hit. Holding on a little too long and going to the ground unnecessarily, yes. Which I guess could have been flagged as roughing the passer? But the hit itself wasn't late.

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - BostonCard - 11-15-2019

You know it is bad when Vontaze Burfict is rejecting comparisons to what Garret did.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28090386/vontaze-burfict-rejects-myles-garrett-comparison-blasts-roger-goodell

Burfict, remember, is suspended 12 games for a head to head hit. Burfict is a repeat offender, of course (in fact, he has been suspended two other times), but in isolation, he's got a point; Garret grabbing swinging a helmet at someone is way worse than the head to head hit.

BC

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - shakrat - 11-16-2019

(11-15-2019, 10:24 PM)Canalejas Wrote: Garret obviously overreacted at every part. First retaliating after the initial helmet grab by Rudolph and later swinging the helmet when Rudolph re-engaged by charging at Garret. But I don't think the tackle that started it all was late. I don't see why people are calling it a late hit. Holding on a little too long and going to the ground unnecessarily, yes. Which I guess could have been flagged as roughing the passer? But the hit itself wasn't late.

Agreed on both points.

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - cardcrimson - 11-16-2019

(11-16-2019, 05:40 AM)shakrat Wrote:
(11-15-2019, 10:24 PM)Canalejas Wrote: Garret obviously overreacted at every part. First retaliating after the initial helmet grab by Rudolph and later swinging the helmet when Rudolph re-engaged by charging at Garret. But I don't think the tackle that started it all was late. I don't see why people are calling it a late hit. Holding on a little too long and going to the ground unnecessarily, yes. Which I guess could have been flagged as roughing the passer? But the hit itself wasn't late.

Agreed on both points.

Okay, I see your points. Rudolph had it coming.

So did the school bully that got shot. That provocatively dressed coed deserved to get raped, too.

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - Canalejas - 11-16-2019

(11-16-2019, 09:14 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:
(11-16-2019, 05:40 AM)shakrat Wrote:
(11-15-2019, 10:24 PM)Canalejas Wrote: Garret obviously overreacted at every part. First retaliating after the initial helmet grab by Rudolph and later swinging the helmet when Rudolph re-engaged by charging at Garret. But I don't think the tackle that started it all was late. I don't see why people are calling it a late hit. Holding on a little too long and going to the ground unnecessarily, yes. Which I guess could have been flagged as roughing the passer? But the hit itself wasn't late.

Agreed on both points.

Okay, I see your points. Rudolph had it coming.

So did the school bully that got shot. That provocatively dressed coed deserved to get raped, too.

WTF?

You know it's possible for both players to be in the wrong, for there to be a vast difference in the degree of their transgressions (since it's clear Garret and later Pouncey went nuclear,) and for you to argue without creating a strawman, right?

To point out what Rudolph did is not to say that he deserved the helmet to the head.

That rape analogy was in really poor taste, too. You should be ashamed, dude.

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - SF_Cardinal_Fan - 11-16-2019

The power of emotion.

RE: OT: Myles Garrett - winflop - 11-16-2019

Rudolph tried to rip off Garrett's helment - and almost did. He should sit for a game or two.

Garrett should shit for the rest of this season and some of next season too. Not going to get into moral relativism arguments compared to other punishments. That was abhorrent and I don't care that he was remorseful after the fact.

Three games for Pouncey sounds about right. You don't kick a guy in the head