Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - Printable Version

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Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - gailtate - 11-18-2019

What happens off the field this off-season will determine what happens on the field next season. And, as I suspect most of us agree, incremental adjustments won't cut it. The fix calls for a major overhaul.

But the inconvenient truth is that implementation of the very shakeup needed right now seems antithetical to David Shaw's apparent reluctance to see anything outside his blinkered view. I'm not convinced he sees a fundamental problem.

I salute Shaw for unprecedented accomplishments as head coach during the first half of his Stanford tenure. In my view he delivered a near miraculous return on what he inherited in 2011. Counter to what many have said, it was anything but auto-pilot coaching. Honestly, I did NOT expect such spectacular results when he was hired and I'm not sure anyone else did, either. We have all seen that given great talent, great assistants, a great recruiting system and a nationally-renowned S&C program, Shaw proved that he can win at a championship level.

Fast-forward to the obvious in 2019: a program in decline by virtue of concurrent declines in areas that propelled his success in the first five years, 1) player talent and development, 2) team health, and 3) assistant coaching. It's apparent that Stanford no longer recruits the caliber (or the number) of athletes it did during the Harbaugh and early-Shaw era. Obviously, Stanford no longer employs as many first-rate assistants as it did during those years, ones capable of developing the athletes it signs. And, perhaps worst of all, an obvious and alarming rate of injuries coincides with clearly diminished S&C leadership. These declines occured on Shaw's watch. They are his problems to fix.

What this coach does to return to "Early-Shaw" success will start becoming apparent in 2020. Results on the field will be conspicuous, either way.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - d4cohn - 11-18-2019

(11-18-2019, 03:44 PM)gailtate Wrote:  What happens off the field this off-season will determine what happens on the field next season. And, as I suspect most of us agree, incremental adjustments won't cut it. The fix calls for a major overhaul.

But the inconvenient truth is that implementation of the very shakeup needed right now seems antithetical to David Shaw's apparent reluctance to see anything outside his blinkered view. I'm not convinced he sees a fundamental problem.

I salute Shaw for unprecedented accomplishments as head coach during the first half of his Stanford tenure. In my view he delivered a near miraculous return on what he inherited in 2011. Counter to what many have said, it was anything but auto-pilot coaching. Honestly, I did NOT expect such spectacular results when he was hired and I'm not sure anyone else did, either. We have all seen that given great talent, great assistants, a great recruiting system and a nationally-renowned S&C program, Shaw proved that he can win at a championship level.

Fast-forward to the obvious in 2019: a program in decline by virtue of concurrent declines in areas that propelled his success in the first five years, 1) player talent and development, 2) team health, and 3) assistant coaching. It's apparent that Stanford no longer recruits the caliber (or the number) of athletes it did during the Harbaugh and early-Shaw era. Obviously, Stanford no longer employs as many first-rate assistants as it did during those years, ones capable of developing the athletes it signs. And, perhaps worst of all, an obvious and alarming rate of injuries coincides with clearly diminished S&C leadership. These declines occured on Shaw's watch. They are his problems to fix.

What this coach does to return to "Early-Shaw" success will start becoming apparent in 2020. Results on the field will be conspicuous, either way.

I think this was a very measured take, and even though I have been on this board, and still am, a big supporter of Coach Shaw, I agree with you that changes are needed in our S&C. I might disagree with you on the degree to which #1 and #3 led to this current season (I am of the opinion that #2 led to the vast majority of our problems this year and last, but there have been roster management issues in terms of utilizing our full allotment of scholarships that BC has pointed out.)

As I pointed out in a thread last week, I think Coach Shaw is more willing to make changes than people may realize/think. I think "the issue" (which I don't think is an issue) has been that Coach Shaw has made the changes more quietly (such as the shift in offensive philosophy over the last two years, the hiring of a new OL coach etc.) without calling attention to the moves. I think this approach is doing right by the players, coaches (current and former) and other members of the program, by not calling public attention to others' mistakes/deficiencies. It may not be visible, apparent or satisfying to the fans to not announce the changes/problems more publicly, but I think Coach Shaw's approach has been better in terms of the program long term. While I recognize there are more approaches than the one used by Coach Shaw versus the approach used by Mike Leach, I certainly wouldn't want our HC to take Mike Leach's approach. 

The other thing that I appreciate is that you recognized Coach Shaw's accomplishments in balancing your critique. My issue has not been with the critiques of this season/recent history so much as the one-sided critiques of Coach Shaw, glossing over his record (particularly as it compares historically in our program), the attribution of all of Coach Shaw's success to Coach Harbaugh etc.

So great post, and I think this added well to the discussion.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - Phogge - 11-18-2019

Hard to envision six wins. Oregon State is getting better but loses Luton. If UDub keeps Eason and Ahmad they will be tough at home. UCLA seemed on an upswing and then laid an egg Saturday so who knows. SC has about nine QB's who can play. Cal will lose Weaver and a bunch of a very good DB's. The Pirate will find somebody to toss six or seven TD's vs Stanford. Mills will need to toss eight. Arizona is a wreck but gets SU in Tucson. The Domers will be loaded. Colorado improves but loses Montez. William and Mary have reconciled, BYU is on a mission and Butter II proves to Shaw that he has more talent than the LDS kid plus a stable of athletes.

5-7, if healthy. They need a big, fast powerful back and they ain't got one.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - gailtate - 11-18-2019

(11-18-2019, 04:22 PM)d4cohn Wrote:  

(11-18-2019, 03:44 PM)gailtate Wrote:  What happens off the field this off-season will determine what happens on the field next season. And, as I suspect most of us agree, incremental adjustments won't cut it. The fix calls for a major overhaul.

But the inconvenient truth is that implementation of the very shakeup needed right now seems antithetical to David Shaw's apparent reluctance to see anything outside his blinkered view. I'm not convinced he sees a fundamental problem.

I salute Shaw for unprecedented accomplishments as head coach during the first half of his Stanford tenure. In my view he delivered a near miraculous return on what he inherited in 2011. Counter to what many have said, it was anything but auto-pilot coaching. Honestly, I did NOT expect such spectacular results when he was hired and I'm not sure anyone else did, either. We have all seen that given great talent, great assistants, a great recruiting system and a nationally-renowned S&C program, Shaw proved that he can win at a championship level.

Fast-forward to the obvious in 2019: a program in decline by virtue of concurrent declines in areas that propelled his success in the first five years, 1) player talent and development, 2) team health, and 3) assistant coaching. It's apparent that Stanford no longer recruits the caliber (or the number) of athletes it did during the Harbaugh and early-Shaw era. Obviously, Stanford no longer employs as many first-rate assistants as it did during those years, ones capable of developing the athletes it signs. And, perhaps worst of all, an obvious and alarming rate of injuries coincides with clearly diminished S&C leadership. These declines occured on Shaw's watch. They are his problems to fix.

What this coach does to return to "Early-Shaw" success will start becoming apparent in 2020. Results on the field will be conspicuous, either way.

I think this was a very measured take, and even though I have been on this board, and still am, a big supporter of Coach Shaw, I agree with you that changes are needed in our S&C. I might disagree with you on the degree to which #1 and #3 led to this current season (I am of the opinion that #2 led to the vast majority of our problems this year and last, but there have been roster management issues in terms of utilizing our full allotment of scholarships that BC has pointed out.)

As I pointed out in a thread last week, I think Coach Shaw is more willing to make changes than people may realize/think. I think "the issue" (which I don't think is an issue) has been that Coach Shaw has made the changes more quietly (such as the shift in offensive philosophy over the last two years, the hiring of a new OL coach etc.) without calling attention to the moves. I think this approach is doing right by the players, coaches (current and former) and other members of the program, by not calling public attention to others' mistakes/deficiencies. It may not be visible, apparent or satisfying to the fans to not announce the changes/problems more publicly, but I think Coach Shaw's approach has been better in terms of the program long term. While I recognize there are more approaches than the one used by Coach Shaw versus the approach used by Mike Leach, I certainly wouldn't want our HC to take Mike Leach's approach. 

The other thing that I appreciate is that you recognized Coach Shaw's accomplishments in balancing your critique. My issue has not been with the critiques of this season/recent history so much as the one-sided critiques of Coach Shaw, glossing over his record (particularly as it compares historically in our program), the attribution of all of Coach Shaw's success to Coach Harbaugh etc.

So great post, and I think this added well to the discussion.

Wish I shared your optimism. I fear that Stanford's New Year's Day bowls are a thing of the past. But, hey, it was a great run.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - ADPinWDC - 11-18-2019

Not much consolation, but very similar AND DARKER musings in this post among the KAL Dirty Bears 
https://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2019/11/17/20969410/california-golden-bears-usc-trojans-football-2019-justin-wilcox

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - BostonCard - 11-18-2019

We have exactly five players exhausting eligibility at the end of this year: Scarlett, Toohill, IBS, Beecher, McNitzky.  Losing Toohill will obviously be a big loss, and we will miss Scarlett, but the other players, but that is very little loss compared to most years.  The big question is which players will leave before exhausting eligibility.  Adebo, Costello, Parkinson, and Little are the "big four", but part of the reason we've struggled this year is their contribution has been much less than we expected.  Little has been injured all year, Cosello has missed about half the games and not been himself for most of the rest, Parkinson and Adebo have disappointed compared to the hype (and Adebo is done for the season).  I still think we have to prepare for most, if not all, of them to declare for the NFL, but the sting might not be as great as I was worried about. There will probably also be some attrition from players who will decide to declare for real life or who will grad transfer.

Still, we will bring back more players with starting experience than we do in a typical year, and returning starters tends to be one of the better metrics for year-to-year improvement.

Then there are the injured players who we lost for large portions of the season, who (hopefully) will be available to play.  I am thinking specifically of our sophomore middle linebackers (JMF and Miezan) plus Robinson, our guards (Hamilton, Hattis, and Powell).

I think there is reason to be cautiously optimistic for next season.  The big key will be ensuring that our d-linemen come back.  While Swann, Williams, and Booker weren't world beaters, they were solid.  Reid and the two Foxes will be solid at OLB, and if JMF, Miezen, and Robinson can stay healthy, ILB will be better.  Still concerned about safety even if Antoine comes back healthy, and CB will probably be a step back assuming we lose Adebo.  Again, lots of ifs, but you can see an above average Pac-12 defense in there if you squint hard enough. For those considering laughing at that statement, this year, Stanford has the 7th best scoring defense, 7th best total defense (in yards per game), 8th best rushing defense in yards per cary, and 8th best pass efficiency defense in the conference.  Those aren't great numbers, of course, but given what's returning a modest improvement should land us in the top half of the conference.

On offense, a lot will depend on Mills' knee, assuming Costello leaves.  If he can remain healthy, we do have a decent nucleus, with only Scarlett, Parkinson, Costello, and Little likely to leave (and Little basically didn't play).  We return all our receivers; Jones and Peat should be no worse at running back than Scarlett, and if nothing else, we probably won't be playing three freshmen at the offensive line.  An OL of Rouse, Hamilton, Dalman, Hattis, and Sarell, backed up by Bragg, Miller, Nugent, Powell, Hornibook, and presumably Hattis sliding back outside or a true frosh, gives us almost a two-deep without resorting to true freshmen.  Bottom line, I could see this group doing pretty well offensively.

So, the key is injuries.  If you believe that past is prologue, and that the last two years are a direct result of a change in our strength and conditioning program which will predict more injuries next year, then of course how far we go will be dependent on which position group gets hit by the injury bug.  If Costello is gone, and Mills spends the year injured (and McKee is out of shape when he comes back), we could be, in a word, screwed.  Likewise, if some of our weaker position groups, like safety, get struck, we could also be screwed.  If, on the other hand, you believe that injuries are mostly a stochastic process, then you might expect some reversion to the mean, and surmise that chances are that next year won't be as bad as this year.  If that's the case, I could see a return to being an above average Pac-12 team.  The schedule is not exactly favorable, but I could see an 8-9 win season if I look hard enough and we get a few breaks.  I'd probably set the midpoint at a 6 win season, if for no other reason that I'm actually inclined to believe that our injuries may not be a coincidence, and because I'm assuming Costello leaves and have not been sold on the durability of Mills' knee.  I could see the bottom falling out again next year, but I wouldn't bet on it being a continuation of a trend 2020 < 2019 < 2018 << 2015.

BC

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - SamuelMcF - 11-18-2019

(11-18-2019, 06:29 PM)ADPinWDC Wrote:  Not much consolation, but very similar AND DARKER musings in this post among the KAL Dirty Bears 
https://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2019/11/17/20969410/california-golden-bears-usc-trojans-football-2019-justin-wilcox

WOW. Looks like their offense is atrocious, and their defense is solid. I can see a total low-scoring slogfest of a Big Game...and Vegas agrees. Current O/U of 42, though most of the money is on Over right now.

gailtate Wrote:Wish I shared your optimism. I fear that Stanford's New Year's Day bowls are a thing of the past. But, hey, it was a great run.

Unfortunately agree. Being an undergrad from '12-'16 was amazing, but completely spoiled me and my friends. High-achieving Stanford football was all we knew.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - Goose - 11-18-2019

(11-18-2019, 06:40 PM)BostonCard Wrote:  I'd probably set the midpoint at a 6 win season, if for no other reason that I'm actually inclined to believe that our injuries may not be a coincidence, and because I'm assuming Costello leaves and have not been sold on the durability of Mills' knee.  I could see the bottom falling out again next year, but I wouldn't bet on it being a continuation of a trend 2020 < 2019 < 2018 << 2015.


BC

I never believed that our relatively injury free run was totally, or even mostly, related to the S&C program, just as I don't believe the last few years has been caused by the S&C program. If there were a "magic formula" to S&C, everybody would use it by now. The Cal and U$C boards are also excoriating their S&C programs. In no case is anybody saying exactly what changed, or what is wrong with the programs, but they are sure it is something. This is even more irrational than the usual message board criticism of the Offensive and/or Defensive Coordinators. At least in those cases, people sometimes attempt to say what they think is being done incorrectly. With S&C, it is always unspecified.

I am actually a bit more worried that Costello stays than if he leaves. If he does, we will have a QB controversy of major proportions for sure. Costello obviously didn't help himself this year as far as the NFL goes. I am almost sure Shaw wouldn't suggest he is not welcome to come back next year. Is a healthy Costello better than a healthy Mills? Right now, I think most would favor Mills. I am of that opinion myself, but I am certainly concerned about durability. OTOH, if Costello goes to the NFL or grad transfers, and Mills is as fragile as he has been, that is bad too.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - cardcrimson - 11-18-2019

(11-18-2019, 06:29 PM)ADPinWDC Wrote:  Not much consolation, but very similar AND DARKER musings in this post among the KAL Dirty Bears 
https://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2019/11/17/20969410/california-golden-bears-usc-trojans-football-2019-justin-wilcox

Watched a little of the game Saturday night. Garbers injury really hurt. That said, Modster was moving the Bears for a go ahead score, then two really bad drops and they settle for a FG. The Bears then hold USC to a three and out and I turn off the TV.

I expected to wake up to Bear fans reveling in a victory, and instead was stunned that they completely collapsed from that point on.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - Phogge - 11-18-2019

BC, the season began and the two frosh ILB’s were hurt. They have almost no game experience. Expecting them to be productive is a big stretch. The safety play has been horrible for two years. Why should we expect that to be any better (ok, can’t be worse). Unless Lance has a lobotomy he won’t bring much blitzing and the CB’s have shown that without that they can’t cover.

Jones and Peat could be nice chess pieces if Stanford had a back to carry a load. Plus no confidence in Shawvita when he does things like telegraph screen passes by substituting Higgins and Stewart in.

So they will have to throw, throw, throw. Since Shaw is CS and punts from inside the 40 and settles for field goals hard to beat Wazzu, SC and Oregon.

Enough rant. Then Farhan hires his buddy who a raving lunatic and I get real depressed. More rant

All this could be upended if Shaw recruited a Kyler Murray clone but the chances of that are about as good as Gabe Kapler being invited to dinner by Ann Killion.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - JohnR34231 - 11-19-2019

One of the unfortunate things about the 2010-2015 run is that it raised Stanford fans expectations beyond what the team is capable of consistently delivering, especially given the limitations that Stanford puts on its football program.

I think Shaw is capable of getting the team back to the type of records it had 2016-2018, but I doubt if he is capable of another 2010-2015 run.

Woud any coach be? Well, we'll see as time unfolds, but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe some day.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - ChicagoCard - 11-19-2019

Does Curtis Robinson have eligibility left after this year?

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - Hulk01 - 11-19-2019

These are the Stanford football signees, by class,
who received at least two ‘“elite” offers

Harbs
2008 
Andrew Luck (Alabama, LSU, FSU)
2009
Shayne Skov (SC)
Jamal-Rashad Patterson (Alabama, Michigan)
Tyler Gaffney (SC, ND)
2010 
Henry Anderson (FSU, Michigan, Oregon)
2011
James Vaughters (Alabama, Ohio State, SC, FSU, ND, Georgia)
Wayne Lyons (Alabama, SC, ND, FSU, Michigan)

Shaw
2012

Noor Davis (Alabama, Ohio State, SC, LSU, ND, Georgia, FSU)
Andrus Peat (Alabama, Texas, SC, Oregon, ND, FSU, Michigan)
Jordan Watkins (Alabama, Ohio State, ND, Georgia, LSU, FSU)
Kyle Murphy (Alabama, SC, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Josh Garnett (SC, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Barry Sanders (Alabama, FSU, ND)
Nick Davion (Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan)
Aziz Shittu (SC, Michigan)
2013
Peter Kalambayi (Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan)
Greg Taboada (Alabama, FSU, Oregon)
Austin Hooper (ND, Oregon)
2014
Christian McCaffrey (Alabama, Ohio State, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Solomon Thomas (Alabama, Ohio State, Texas, ND)
Brandon Simmons (Ohio State, SC, Michigan, LSU)
Casey Tucker (SC, Michigan, ND)
Keller Chryst (SC, others not disclosed)
Dalton Schultz (SC, ND)
Joey Alfieri (SC, Oregon)
Bobby Okereke (SC, Oregon)
2015
Bryce Love (Ohio State, Georgia)
Justin Reid (LSU, ND)
Dylan Jackson (Alabama, LSU)
Ben Edwards (Ohio State, ND)
Cameron Scarlett (Oregon, ND)
2016 
Curtis Robinson (Ohio State, SC, Oregon, Michigan, ND)
Kaden Smith (Alabama, Texas, LSU, Georgia, Michigan)
Clark Yarbrough (Clemson, LSU, Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma)
Andrew Pryts (Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, ND)
Michael Williams (Ohio State, Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan)
Devery Hamilton (Clemson, Ohio State, LSU, Michigan)
Obi Eboh (Ohio State, Texas, Oklahoma)
K.J. Costello (Alabama, SC, Michigan)
Simi Fehoko (Clemson, Michigan)
2017 
Ryan Johnson (Alabama, Clemson, Oklahoma, LSU, SC, Georgia, Florida, ND, Michigan)
Daylan Wade-Perry (Alabama, Ohio State, FSU, Oklahoma, ND, Michigan)
Foster Sarell (Alabama, Oklahoma, ND, SC, Michigan, Oregon)
Davis Mills (Alabama, FSU, SC, Michigan, Georgia)
Paulson Adebo (Oklahoma, Georgia, SC, Texas, ND)
Walker Little (Alabama, Oklahoma, Michigan, Florida)
Colby Parkinson (SC, Michigan, Georgia)
Osiris St. Brown (SC, Michigan, ND)
Sione Heimuli-Lund (LSU, SC, Michigan)
Stuart Head (Alabama, Clemson, ND)
Connor Wedington (Oregon, ND)
2018
Andres Fox (Alabama, LSU, Florida, FSU, Georgia, ND, SC)
Thomas Booker (FSU, Michigan, ND, Ohio State, Clemson)
Jack West  (Alabama, SC, Michigan)
Tanner McKee (Alabama, Georgia, Texas)(2020 arrival)
Michael Wilson (Oregon, ND)
2019
Elijah Higgins (Ohio State, Texas, Florida, Michigan, ND, Oregon, SC)
Stephen Herron (Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan, Texas)
Walter Rouse (Ohio State, Oklahoma, Michigan, ND, Florida)
Branson Bragg (LSU, SC, Michigan, Oklahoma, Texas)
Joseph Pakola (Georgia, Florida, SC, Oregon, ND)
Austin Jones (Florida, ND, Oregon) 
Salim Turner-Muhammad (Georgia, Michigan, ND)
Tristan Sinclair (ND, SC)
Jake Hornibrook (Clemson, Oregon)
Barrett Miller (Michigan, Oregon)
2020
Myles Hinton (Alabama, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Georgia, Florida, Michigan, SC)
Ayden Hector (Alabama, FSU, Florida, Oregon, SC)
Lukas Ungar (Clemson, Ohio State, LSU, Georgia, Michigan)
Bryce Farrell (Michigan, Florida, ND, SC)
John Humphreys (FSU, ND, Oregon, SC)
Marvin Mims (Ohio State, Oklahoma, ND)
Drake Metcalf (FSU, Oregon, SC)
Connor McLaughlin (FlState, SC)
Brandon Jones (Michgan, SC)
Omari Porter (Michigan, Oregon)

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - JohnR34231 - 11-19-2019

Very suprised that David De Castro didn't receive elite offers.
I checked, though, and he didn't.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - cardcrimson - 11-19-2019

(11-19-2019, 05:24 AM)Hulk01 Wrote:  These are the Stanford football signees, by class,
who received at least two ‘“elite” offers

Harbs
2008 
Andrew Luck (Alabama, LSU, FSU)
2009
Shayne Skov (SC)
Jamal-Rashad Patterson (Alabama, Michigan)
Tyler Gaffney (SC, ND)
2010 
Henry Anderson (FSU, Michigan, Oregon)
2011
James Vaughters (Alabama, Ohio State, SC, FSU, ND, Georgia)
Wayne Lyons (Alabama, SC, ND, FSU, Michigan)

Shaw
2012

Noor Davis (Alabama, Ohio State, SC, LSU, ND, Georgia, FSU)
Andrus Peat (Alabama, Texas, SC, Oregon, ND, FSU, Michigan)
Jordan Watkins (Alabama, Ohio State, ND, Georgia, LSU, FSU)
Kyle Murphy (Alabama, SC, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Josh Garnett (SC, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Barry Sanders (Alabama, FSU, ND)
Nick Davion (Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan)
Aziz Shittu (SC, Michigan)
2013
Peter Kalambayi (Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan)
Greg Taboada (Alabama, FSU, Oregon)
Austin Hooper (ND, Oregon)
2014
Christian McCaffrey (Alabama, Ohio State, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Solomon Thomas (Alabama, Ohio State, Texas, ND)
Brandon Simmons (Ohio State, SC, Michigan, LSU)
Casey Tucker (SC, Michigan, ND)
Keller Chryst (SC, others not disclosed)
Dalton Schultz (SC, ND)
Joey Alfieri (SC, Oregon)
Bobby Okereke (SC, Oregon)
2015
Bryce Love (Ohio State, Georgia)
Justin Reid (LSU, ND)
Dylan Jackson (Alabama, LSU)
Ben Edwards (Ohio State, ND)
Cameron Scarlett (Oregon, ND)
2016 
Curtis Robinson (Ohio State, SC, Oregon, Michigan, ND)
Kaden Smith (Alabama, Texas, LSU, Georgia, Michigan)
Clark Yarbrough (Clemson, LSU, Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma)
Andrew Pryts (Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, ND)
Michael Williams (Ohio State, Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan)
Devery Hamilton (Clemson, Ohio State, LSU, Michigan)
Obi Eboh (Ohio State, Texas, Oklahoma)
K.J. Costello (Alabama, SC, Michigan)
Simi Fehoko (Clemson, Michigan)
2017 
Ryan Johnson (Alabama, Clemson, Oklahoma, LSU, SC, Georgia, Florida, ND, Michigan)
Daylan Wade-Perry (Alabama, Ohio State, FSU, Oklahoma, ND, Michigan)
Foster Sarell (Alabama, Oklahoma, ND, SC, Michigan, Oregon)
Davis Mills (Alabama, FSU, SC, Michigan, Georgia)
Paulson Adebo (Oklahoma, Georgia, SC, Texas, ND)
Walker Little (Alabama, Oklahoma, Michigan, Florida)
Colby Parkinson (SC, Michigan, Georgia)
Osiris St. Brown (SC, Michigan, ND)
Sione Heimuli-Lund (LSU, SC, Michigan)
Stuart Head (Alabama, Clemson, ND)
Connor Wedington (Oregon, ND)
2018
Andres Fox (Alabama, LSU, Florida, FSU, Georgia, ND, SC)
Thomas Booker (FSU, Michigan, ND, Ohio State, Clemson)
Jack West  (Alabama, SC, Michigan)
Tanner McKee (Alabama, Georgia, Texas)(2020 arrival)
Michael Wilson (Oregon, ND)
2019
Elijah Higgins (Ohio State, Texas, Florida, Michigan, ND, Oregon, SC)
Stephen Herron (Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan, Texas)
Walter Rouse (Ohio State, Oklahoma, Michigan, ND, Florida)
Branson Bragg (LSU, SC, Michigan, Oklahoma, Texas)
Joseph Pakola (Georgia, Florida, SC, Oregon, ND)
Austin Jones (Florida, ND, Oregon) 
Salim Turner-Muhammad (Georgia, Michigan, ND)
Tristan Sinclair (ND, SC)
Jake Hornibrook (Clemson, Oregon)
Barrett Miller (Michigan, Oregon)
2020
Myles Hinton (Alabama, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Georgia, Florida, Michigan, SC)
Ayden Hector (Alabama, FSU, Florida, Oregon, SC)
Lukas Ungar (Clemson, Ohio State, LSU, Georgia, Michigan)
Bryce Farrell (Michigan, Florida, ND, SC)
John Humphreys (FSU, ND, Oregon, SC)
Marvin Mims (Ohio State, Oklahoma, ND)
Drake Metcalf (FSU, Oregon, SC)
Connor McLaughlin (FlState, SC)
Brandon Jones (Michgan, SC)
Omari Porter (Michigan, Oregon)

With all those stud recruits of late, why has our program declined to 4-6? If not the players, then what?

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - cardcoug - 11-19-2019

Thanks for that, Hulk. It seems like its become a sort of axiom among many on here that Stanford just "doesnt have the athletes" to keep up and doesnt recruit as well now as in the past. But look at the average recruit rankings over time and there just isnt a trendline to support that; compare us to the rest of the pac 12 and we clearly bring in more high caliber athletes than 2/3 of the conference. Whatever the source of our troubles is, its not: "Shaw cant recruit elite athletes (anymore)."

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - Phogge - 11-19-2019

Gardner and Reynolds were two star. Lancaster and others were three star. Ratings have weight but there are other factors. The most important part of recruiting is having people who can judge talent regardless of star ratings.

Then there is the old "coach em up." Obviously some do it better than others. Wazzu's offensive staff for example.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - OutsiderFan - 11-19-2019

I made a post before the beginning of this season essentially making the point Hulk just made. Stanford has much better talent than a lot of fans want to believe. It can be argued there isn't much truly edit talent, but few teams have that.

The injuries to the OL, QBs, LBs, and DBs have certainly been quite a challenge, but there is no way anyone can make a credible case that Stanford is a well-coached team doing a good job developing its players.  

When you see things like clock mismanagement, OL recruiting deficiencies coming home to roost, failure to translate 500 yards into more than 22 points, it points to a lack of situational awareness and urgency that when applied to all areas of the program is going to be very detrimental.

It's time for new coordinators who have strong track records of performance, but there is a lot more that needs to change beyond this, IMO. I'm not going to decry the S&C program at this point. Injuries are just too much of a random variable to blame S&C at this point. Is someone going to explain why the RBs, WRs, TEs, and DL have all avoided injury for most part, and why the OL, QB, LB, and DBs have?

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - PAsportsfan - 11-19-2019

(11-19-2019, 08:04 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  

(11-19-2019, 05:24 AM)Hulk01 Wrote:  These are the Stanford football signees, by class,
who received at least two ‘“elite” offers

Harbs
2008 
Andrew Luck (Alabama, LSU, FSU)
2009
Shayne Skov (SC)
Jamal-Rashad Patterson (Alabama, Michigan)
Tyler Gaffney (SC, ND)
2010 
Henry Anderson (FSU, Michigan, Oregon)
2011
James Vaughters (Alabama, Ohio State, SC, FSU, ND, Georgia)
Wayne Lyons (Alabama, SC, ND, FSU, Michigan)

Shaw
2012

Noor Davis (Alabama, Ohio State, SC, LSU, ND, Georgia, FSU)
Andrus Peat (Alabama, Texas, SC, Oregon, ND, FSU, Michigan)
Jordan Watkins (Alabama, Ohio State, ND, Georgia, LSU, FSU)
Kyle Murphy (Alabama, SC, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Josh Garnett (SC, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Barry Sanders (Alabama, FSU, ND)
Nick Davion (Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan)
Aziz Shittu (SC, Michigan)
2013
Peter Kalambayi (Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan)
Greg Taboada (Alabama, FSU, Oregon)
Austin Hooper (ND, Oregon)
2014
Christian McCaffrey (Alabama, Ohio State, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Solomon Thomas (Alabama, Ohio State, Texas, ND)
Brandon Simmons (Ohio State, SC, Michigan, LSU)
Casey Tucker (SC, Michigan, ND)
Keller Chryst (SC, others not disclosed)
Dalton Schultz (SC, ND)
Joey Alfieri (SC, Oregon)
Bobby Okereke (SC, Oregon)
2015
Bryce Love (Ohio State, Georgia)
Justin Reid (LSU, ND)
Dylan Jackson (Alabama, LSU)
Ben Edwards (Ohio State, ND)
Cameron Scarlett (Oregon, ND)
2016 
Curtis Robinson (Ohio State, SC, Oregon, Michigan, ND)
Kaden Smith (Alabama, Texas, LSU, Georgia, Michigan)
Clark Yarbrough (Clemson, LSU, Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma)
Andrew Pryts (Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, ND)
Michael Williams (Ohio State, Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan)
Devery Hamilton (Clemson, Ohio State, LSU, Michigan)
Obi Eboh (Ohio State, Texas, Oklahoma)
K.J. Costello (Alabama, SC, Michigan)
Simi Fehoko (Clemson, Michigan)
2017 
Ryan Johnson (Alabama, Clemson, Oklahoma, LSU, SC, Georgia, Florida, ND, Michigan)
Daylan Wade-Perry (Alabama, Ohio State, FSU, Oklahoma, ND, Michigan)
Foster Sarell (Alabama, Oklahoma, ND, SC, Michigan, Oregon)
Davis Mills (Alabama, FSU, SC, Michigan, Georgia)
Paulson Adebo (Oklahoma, Georgia, SC, Texas, ND)
Walker Little (Alabama, Oklahoma, Michigan, Florida)
Colby Parkinson (SC, Michigan, Georgia)
Osiris St. Brown (SC, Michigan, ND)
Sione Heimuli-Lund (LSU, SC, Michigan)
Stuart Head (Alabama, Clemson, ND)
Connor Wedington (Oregon, ND)
2018
Andres Fox (Alabama, LSU, Florida, FSU, Georgia, ND, SC)
Thomas Booker (FSU, Michigan, ND, Ohio State, Clemson)
Jack West  (Alabama, SC, Michigan)
Tanner McKee (Alabama, Georgia, Texas)(2020 arrival)
Michael Wilson (Oregon, ND)
2019
Elijah Higgins (Ohio State, Texas, Florida, Michigan, ND, Oregon, SC)
Stephen Herron (Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan, Texas)
Walter Rouse (Ohio State, Oklahoma, Michigan, ND, Florida)
Branson Bragg (LSU, SC, Michigan, Oklahoma, Texas)
Joseph Pakola (Georgia, Florida, SC, Oregon, ND)
Austin Jones (Florida, ND, Oregon) 
Salim Turner-Muhammad (Georgia, Michigan, ND)
Tristan Sinclair (ND, SC)
Jake Hornibrook (Clemson, Oregon)
Barrett Miller (Michigan, Oregon)
2020
Myles Hinton (Alabama, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Georgia, Florida, Michigan, SC)
Ayden Hector (Alabama, FSU, Florida, Oregon, SC)
Lukas Ungar (Clemson, Ohio State, LSU, Georgia, Michigan)
Bryce Farrell (Michigan, Florida, ND, SC)
John Humphreys (FSU, ND, Oregon, SC)
Marvin Mims (Ohio State, Oklahoma, ND)
Drake Metcalf (FSU, Oregon, SC)
Connor McLaughlin (FlState, SC)
Brandon Jones (Michgan, SC)
Omari Porter (Michigan, Oregon)

With all those stud recruits of late, why has our program declined to 4-6? If not the players, then what?

There you go again stating the obvious. How dare you. 

HAHA.

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RE: Seeing the obvious: 2020 vision - teejers1 - 11-19-2019

(11-19-2019, 08:04 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  

(11-19-2019, 05:24 AM)Hulk01 Wrote:  These are the Stanford football signees, by class,
who received at least two ‘“elite” offers

Harbs
2008 
Andrew Luck (Alabama, LSU, FSU)
2009
Shayne Skov (SC)
Jamal-Rashad Patterson (Alabama, Michigan)
Tyler Gaffney (SC, ND)
2010 
Henry Anderson (FSU, Michigan, Oregon)
2011
James Vaughters (Alabama, Ohio State, SC, FSU, ND, Georgia)
Wayne Lyons (Alabama, SC, ND, FSU, Michigan)

Shaw
2012

Noor Davis (Alabama, Ohio State, SC, LSU, ND, Georgia, FSU)
Andrus Peat (Alabama, Texas, SC, Oregon, ND, FSU, Michigan)
Jordan Watkins (Alabama, Ohio State, ND, Georgia, LSU, FSU)
Kyle Murphy (Alabama, SC, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Josh Garnett (SC, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Barry Sanders (Alabama, FSU, ND)
Nick Davion (Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan)
Aziz Shittu (SC, Michigan)
2013
Peter Kalambayi (Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan)
Greg Taboada (Alabama, FSU, Oregon)
Austin Hooper (ND, Oregon)
2014
Christian McCaffrey (Alabama, Ohio State, Oregon, ND, Michigan)
Solomon Thomas (Alabama, Ohio State, Texas, ND)
Brandon Simmons (Ohio State, SC, Michigan, LSU)
Casey Tucker (SC, Michigan, ND)
Keller Chryst (SC, others not disclosed)
Dalton Schultz (SC, ND)
Joey Alfieri (SC, Oregon)
Bobby Okereke (SC, Oregon)
2015
Bryce Love (Ohio State, Georgia)
Justin Reid (LSU, ND)
Dylan Jackson (Alabama, LSU)
Ben Edwards (Ohio State, ND)
Cameron Scarlett (Oregon, ND)
2016 
Curtis Robinson (Ohio State, SC, Oregon, Michigan, ND)
Kaden Smith (Alabama, Texas, LSU, Georgia, Michigan)
Clark Yarbrough (Clemson, LSU, Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma)
Andrew Pryts (Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, ND)
Michael Williams (Ohio State, Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan)
Devery Hamilton (Clemson, Ohio State, LSU, Michigan)
Obi Eboh (Ohio State, Texas, Oklahoma)
K.J. Costello (Alabama, SC, Michigan)
Simi Fehoko (Clemson, Michigan)
2017 
Ryan Johnson (Alabama, Clemson, Oklahoma, LSU, SC, Georgia, Florida, ND, Michigan)
Daylan Wade-Perry (Alabama, Ohio State, FSU, Oklahoma, ND, Michigan)
Foster Sarell (Alabama, Oklahoma, ND, SC, Michigan, Oregon)
Davis Mills (Alabama, FSU, SC, Michigan, Georgia)
Paulson Adebo (Oklahoma, Georgia, SC, Texas, ND)
Walker Little (Alabama, Oklahoma, Michigan, Florida)
Colby Parkinson (SC, Michigan, Georgia)
Osiris St. Brown (SC, Michigan, ND)
Sione Heimuli-Lund (LSU, SC, Michigan)
Stuart Head (Alabama, Clemson, ND)
Connor Wedington (Oregon, ND)
2018
Andres Fox (Alabama, LSU, Florida, FSU, Georgia, ND, SC)
Thomas Booker (FSU, Michigan, ND, Ohio State, Clemson)
Jack West  (Alabama, SC, Michigan)
Tanner McKee (Alabama, Georgia, Texas)(2020 arrival)
Michael Wilson (Oregon, ND)
2019
Elijah Higgins (Ohio State, Texas, Florida, Michigan, ND, Oregon, SC)
Stephen Herron (Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Ohio State, Oregon, Michigan, Texas)
Walter Rouse (Ohio State, Oklahoma, Michigan, ND, Florida)
Branson Bragg (LSU, SC, Michigan, Oklahoma, Texas)
Joseph Pakola (Georgia, Florida, SC, Oregon, ND)
Austin Jones (Florida, ND, Oregon) 
Salim Turner-Muhammad (Georgia, Michigan, ND)
Tristan Sinclair (ND, SC)
Jake Hornibrook (Clemson, Oregon)
Barrett Miller (Michigan, Oregon)
2020
Myles Hinton (Alabama, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Georgia, Florida, Michigan, SC)
Ayden Hector (Alabama, FSU, Florida, Oregon, SC)
Lukas Ungar (Clemson, Ohio State, LSU, Georgia, Michigan)
Bryce Farrell (Michigan, Florida, ND, SC)
John Humphreys (FSU, ND, Oregon, SC)
Marvin Mims (Ohio State, Oklahoma, ND)
Drake Metcalf (FSU, Oregon, SC)
Connor McLaughlin (FlState, SC)
Brandon Jones (Michgan, SC)
Omari Porter (Michigan, Oregon)

With all those stud recruits of late, why has our program declined to 4-6? If not the players, then what?

I'm sure D4Cohn (or one or two others) will enlighten you, CC.

P.S.  Mims bailed, yes?

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