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Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - bl82 - 10-08-2020

I'm assuming that our starting lineup for 20-21 is pretty much set, assuming everyone is healthy:
1 - Davis
2 - Wills
3/4 - Williams
3/4 - Jones
4/5 - da Silva

When I started thinking about the rotation, I quickly became concerned about our backcourt depth and observed that several of our subs may be interchangeable, at least initially.

One or both of our freshmen combo guards, Taitz and O'Connell, needs to step up as the backup PG. Sure, Wills can eat up some minutes by moving over to PG in a pinch, but we need one or both of the frosh able to combine for 5-10 minutes per night. Not only that, but Taitz and O'Connell are also the first subs in for a SG, to the extent we can differentiate between PG and SG. I'm thinking Taitz may have more developed SG skills, but who knows what will happen to O'Connell once he is able to devote 100% of his time to basketball.

A third backcourt thought is that perhaps Williams or Jones can give us wing/perimeter minutes in some type of configuration that includes several forwards who can handle the ball. Here is where the idea of Williams as a point forward becomes particularly intriguing.

Turning to the forward positions, I'm distinguishing between combo forwards like Williams and Jones and more pure post players, like Kisunas and Keefe. In an ideal world, da Silva is a more flexible 3/4/5 forward, but necessity dictates that we need him more at the 5 than the 3.

For now I'm slotting Delaire and Murrell as 3/4 combo forwards like Williams and Jones, though these two may shade more toward the 4 with Williams and Jones shading more toward the 3.

While Keefe's body type makes him a 4, his skill set (500 perimeter jumpers a day, James!) dictates that he is not much of an offensive threat away from the hoop, though his perimeter defense means that he is more flexible than Kisunas in terms of how he can switch, where we can use him, etc.

This leaves Kisunas as our only true 5, unless Fitzmorris has made some sort of great leap forward.

So, in terms of subs:
1/2 - Taitz/O'Connell
3/4 - Delaire/Murrell (I have a sense this could be the year Delaire could make a big leap forward)
4/5 - Keefe (small) or Kisunas (big)

An interesting question arises if Wills, Jones and Williams are all excellent rebounders for their position/size. Does this mean that we periodically stack our lineup with four combo forwards and keep Keefe and Kisunas on the bench unless we need extra beef?

Our rotation will have to include one or more of the frosh guards, accommodate both Delaire and Murrell and probably slot in Keefe and Kisunas based more on matchups than anything else.

We may be smaller and more flexible this year. Let's hope health issues don't complicate any of this.

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - donkey687 - 10-08-2020

Our lack of depth in the backcourt is scary. The frosh better be able to play and Davis and Wills better stay healthy.
I think positions can be interchangeable to some extent.  Williams better be capable of guarding guards as we will likely have lineups with only one true guard. I think Delaire will play a lot as he was really developing.  We may have a 7-8 man rotation that doesn't focus on positional substitutions (i.e. a big may come in and a small comes out with everyone rotating a spot).

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - GK3 - 10-08-2020

(10-08-2020, 11:03 AM)bl82 Wrote:  I'm assuming that our starting lineup for 20-21 is pretty much set, assuming everyone is healthy:
1 - Davis
2 - Wills
3/4 - Williams
3/4 - Jones
4/5 - da Silva

When I started thinking about the rotation, I quickly became concerned about our backcourt depth and observed that several of our subs may be interchangeable, at least initially.

One or both of our freshmen combo guards, Taitz and O'Connell, needs to step up as the backup PG.  Sure, Wills can eat up some minutes by moving over to PG in a pinch, but we need one or both of the frosh able to combine for 5-10 minutes per night.  Not only that, but Taitz and O'Connell are also the first subs in for a SG, to the extent we can differentiate between PG and SG.  I'm thinking Taitz may have more developed SG skills, but who knows what will happen to O'Connell once he is able to devote 100% of his time to basketball.

A third backcourt thought is that perhaps Williams or Jones can give us wing/perimeter minutes in some type of configuration that includes several forwards who can handle the ball.  Here is where the idea of Williams as a point forward becomes particularly intriguing.

Turning to the forward positions, I'm distinguishing between combo forwards like Williams and Jones and more pure post players, like Kisunas and Keefe.  In an ideal world, da Silva is a more flexible 3/4/5 forward, but necessity dictates that we need him more at the 5 than the 3.

For now I'm slotting Delaire and Murrell as 3/4 combo forwards like Williams and Jones, though these two may shade more toward the 4 with Williams and Jones shading more toward the 3.

While Keefe's body type makes him a 4, his skill set (500 perimeter jumpers a day, James!) dictates that he is not much of an offensive threat away from the hoop, though his perimeter defense means that he is more flexible than Kisunas in terms of how he can switch, where we can use him, etc.

This leaves Kisunas as our only true 5, unless Fitzmorris has made some sort of great leap forward.

So, in terms of subs:
1/2 - Taitz/O'Connell
3/4 - Delaire/Murrell (I have a sense this could be the year Delaire could make a big leap forward)
4/5 - Keefe (small) or Kisunas (big)

An interesting question arises if Wills, Jones and Williams are all excellent rebounders for their position/size.  Does this mean that we periodically stack our lineup with four combo forwards and keep Keefe and Kisunas on the bench unless we need extra beef?

Our rotation will have to include one or more of the frosh guards, accommodate both Delaire and Murrell and probably slot in Keefe and Kisunas based more on matchups than anything else.

We may be smaller and more flexible this year.  Let's hope health issues don't complicate any of this.

I think we may also say Murrell at the 5.  Like DaSilva he can put the ball on the floor and beat bigger slower guys, plus present a major rim defender the other guys have to deal with.

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - SamuelMcF - 10-08-2020

What a relief it will be to actually have a 10+ player rotation :)

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - Brickcity - 10-08-2020

(10-08-2020, 11:31 AM)donkey687 Wrote:  Our lack of depth in the backcourt is scary. The frosh better be able to play and Davis and Wills better stay healthy.
I think positions can be interchangeable to some extent.  Williams better be capable of guarding guards as we will likely have lineups with only one true guard. I think Delaire will play a lot as he was really developing.  We may have a 7-8 man rotation that doesn't focus on positional substitutions (i.e. a big may come in and a small comes out with everyone rotating a spot).

Call me an optimist, but I have a feeling that McConnell and Taitz will be able to provide quality minutes out of the gate. They strike me as hard-nosed, skilled players. The only fly in the ointment is if they struggle with the speed of the game at first. But, they should adapt quickly.

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - GK3 - 10-09-2020

(10-08-2020, 09:28 PM)Brickcity Wrote:  
(10-08-2020, 11:31 AM)donkey687 Wrote:  Our lack of depth in the backcourt is scary. The frosh better be able to play and Davis and Wills better stay healthy.
I think positions can be interchangeable to some extent.  Williams better be capable of guarding guards as we will likely have lineups with only one true guard. I think Delaire will play a lot as he was really developing.  We may have a 7-8 man rotation that doesn't focus on positional substitutions (i.e. a big may come in and a small comes out with everyone rotating a spot).

Call me an optimist, but I have a feeling that McConnell and Taitz will be able to provide quality minutes out of the gate. They strike me as hard-nosed, skilled players. The only fly in the ointment is if they struggle with the speed of the game at first. But, they should adapt quickly.

+1  I haven't seen very many clips of Taitz play, but O'Connell is clearly an excellent athlete and clearly has spent some time in the weight room.  He won't be a guy who gets knocked around too much.  His clips show him more than willing to take it to the basket and score through contact.  Also seems to have a nice mid range jumper taken off the dribble.  He was 175 in high school and would not be surprised to see him closer to 185 when he takes the floor at Stanford.  Has the body to easily handle the extra weight.  His brother ended up 6'2" and 195.  Strength and quickness are necessary attributes of a high level lacrosse player and he certainly falls into that category.  FWLIW I remain convinced he will play a lot at Stanford.

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - BobK - 10-09-2020

https://twitter.com/mchat24/status/1313163992156700672?s=21

Weight gains posted by our S&C coach

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - Brickcity - 10-09-2020

(10-09-2020, 08:07 AM)BobK Wrote:  https://twitter.com/mchat24/status/1313163992156700672?s=21

Weight gains posted by our S&C coach

Fantastic to see these transformations. I'd love to see Murrell add another 10-15 before the start of next season, which seems entirely possible.

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - SamuelMcF - 10-09-2020

(10-09-2020, 07:28 AM)GK3 Wrote:  +1  I haven't seen very many clips of Taitz play, but O'Connell is clearly an excellent athlete and clearly has spent some time in the weight room.  He won't be a guy who gets knocked around too much.  His clips show him more than willing to take it to the basket and score through contact.  Also seems to have a nice mid range jumper taken off the dribble.  He was 175 in high school and would not be surprised to see him closer to 185 when he takes the floor at Stanford.  Has the body to easily handle the extra weight.  His brother ended up 6'2" and 195.  Strength and quickness are necessary attributes of a high level lacrosse player and he certainly falls into that category.  FWLIW I remain convinced he will play a lot at Stanford.

O'Connell's team - Blair Academy in NJ - was loaded. The starting five featured a fellow 2020 committed to UVA, another committed to Penn, two 2021s with major P5 offers including PG Jaylen Blakes whom we are/were recruiting (not sure anymore now that we got Isa Silva), and a 2022 whale rotating in regularly. O'Connell was the second-leading scorer (18ppg vs the leader's 19 ppg), leading assister (5apg), and pulled down 5 rebounds a game as a PG. He transferred in as a senior and took a bonafide P5 prospect's starting PG job. (That's how we found him, by the way. Staff went to watch Jaylen Blakes and went "who is this senior who took his job?")

After watching his film post-commitment, 247sports immediately gave him a 4* rating as the #100 prospect in the country. (Funnily enough, that's higher than Tyrell Terry.) If anything he'll certainly be way more able to handle a beating - listed right now at 6'2" 180, and formerly a top-100 lacrosse prospect. He's got 20-25lbs on Terry at this stage, and doesn't have to be our leading scoring threat. Just has to play solid D (Terry couldn't as much, given size limitations) and stir the drink/keep TOs to a minimum.

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - Spiny_Norman - 10-09-2020

(10-09-2020, 08:07 AM)BobK Wrote:  https://twitter.com/mchat24/status/1313163992156700672?s=21

Weight gains posted by our S&C coach

This comment to that post jumped out at me.

[twitter]https://twitter.com/tyterry05/status/1314355872987000833[/twitter]

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - GK3 - 10-09-2020

(10-09-2020, 11:01 AM)Spiny_Norman Wrote:  
(10-09-2020, 08:07 AM)BobK Wrote:  https://twitter.com/mchat24/status/1313163992156700672?s=21

Weight gains posted by our S&C coach

This comment to that post jumped out at me.

[twitter]https://twitter.com/tyterry05/status/1314355872987000833[/twitter]

Understandable as I do not think TT had any idea he would end up a likely 1st round pick after one year.  His goal was to make it to the NBA period as I understand it.  He ends up at a school whose coach really understands the position, was willing to turn the team over to a Freshman and start another at forward.  Haase really allowed TT to show what he could do and Terry took advantage of the opportunity.  When he first launched one of those very deep 3 pt shots I thought what is he doing?  Then it went in as did a lot of others and Haase didn't have a quick hook when he made a mistake.  A lot for Tyrell to like about his experience at Stanford and I must assume he got along well with his teammates.

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - winflop - 10-10-2020

(10-08-2020, 11:03 AM)bl82 Wrote:  I'm assuming that our starting lineup for 20-21 is pretty much set, assuming everyone is healthy:
1 - Davis

This is what concerns me more than anything else. He's not a PG, not a good ball-handler. Neither is Wills.

I'm looking for the results to exceed the talent. Hasn't happened yet under Haase (nor did it ever happen under his predecessor except for one good week in his only NCAA appearance).

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - Brickcity - 10-10-2020

(10-10-2020, 05:44 PM)winflop Wrote:  
(10-08-2020, 11:03 AM)bl82 Wrote:  I'm assuming that our starting lineup for 20-21 is pretty much set, assuming everyone is healthy:
1 - Davis

This is what concerns me more than anything else. He's not a PG, not a good ball-handler. Neither is Wills.

I'm looking for the results to exceed the talent. Hasn't happened yet under Haase (nor did it ever happen under his predecessor except for one good week in his only NCAA appearance).

I share your concern. It wouldn't shock me if Mike McConnell - assuming he flourishes early - becomes our starting point guard at some point during the season. That would move Davis or Wills to the bench. However, my guess is that Haase would have a three-man rotation where each receives roughly equal playing time, with Taitz getting in a for a few minutes here and there.

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - SamuelMcF - 10-10-2020

(10-10-2020, 10:37 PM)Brickcity Wrote:  
(10-10-2020, 05:44 PM)winflop Wrote:  
(10-08-2020, 11:03 AM)bl82 Wrote:  I'm assuming that our starting lineup for 20-21 is pretty much set, assuming everyone is healthy:
1 - Davis

This is what concerns me more than anything else. He's not a PG, not a good ball-handler. Neither is Wills.

I'm looking for the results to exceed the talent. Hasn't happened yet under Haase (nor did it ever happen under his predecessor except for one good week in his only NCAA appearance).

I share your concern. It wouldn't shock me if Mike McConnell - assuming he flourishes early - becomes our starting point guard at some point during the season. That would move Davis or Wills to the bench. However, my guess is that Haase would have a three-man rotation where each receives roughly equal playing time, with Taitz getting in a for a few minutes here and there.

Where did this notion that Wills plays the 1 come from? He's a 2 who can easily defend 1-4. He's not a point guard. Never handles the ball up the court (unless Ty was getting trapped/full-court pressed).

I too believe O'Connell will play a significant role this season. As I wrote above, he certainly has the size and athleticism to not get knocked around as a freshman. Taitz is more of a combo guard (as is Daejon) but has played the point before.

All this said, Davis and Wills are way too effective on defense to sit much. I don't think there will be a "rotation" as much as O'Connell will likely end up a super sub, at least in the short term.

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - Brickcity - 10-10-2020

(10-10-2020, 11:11 PM)SamuelMcF Wrote:  
(10-10-2020, 10:37 PM)Brickcity Wrote:  
(10-10-2020, 05:44 PM)winflop Wrote:  
(10-08-2020, 11:03 AM)bl82 Wrote:  I'm assuming that our starting lineup for 20-21 is pretty much set, assuming everyone is healthy:
1 - Davis

This is what concerns me more than anything else. He's not a PG, not a good ball-handler. Neither is Wills.

I'm looking for the results to exceed the talent. Hasn't happened yet under Haase (nor did it ever happen under his predecessor except for one good week in his only NCAA appearance).

I share your concern. It wouldn't shock me if Mike McConnell - assuming he flourishes early - becomes our starting point guard at some point during the season. That would move Davis or Wills to the bench. However, my guess is that Haase would have a three-man rotation where each receives roughly equal playing time, with Taitz getting in a for a few minutes here and there.

Where did this notion that Wills plays the 1 come from? He's a 2 who can easily defend 1-4. He's not a point guard. Never handles the ball up the court (unless Ty was getting trapped/full-court pressed).

I too believe O'Connell will play a significant role this season. As I wrote above, he certainly has the size and athleticism to not get knocked around as a freshman. Taitz is more of a combo guard (as is Daejon) but has played the point before.

All this said, Davis and Wills are way too effective on defense to sit much. I don't think there will be a "rotation" as much as O'Connell will likely end up a super sub, at least in the short term.

You bring up the million dollar question that Haase has to answer...and that answer may change from game to game: do you go mainly with an elite defensive backcourt or do you go with a good defensive backcourt with a more highly functional offense (meaning: McConnell paired with DD or BW). If McConnell plays as well as I suspect he can, I guess I'd lean towards starting him. We saw what happened last year when Terry was in the game. 

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - winflop - 10-11-2020

(10-08-2020, 03:44 PM)SamuelMcF Wrote:  What a relief it will be to actually have a 10+ player rotation :)

Most successful teams have an 8 or 9-player rotation, with the remainder providing spot minutes at most.
(10-10-2020, 11:16 PM)Brickcity Wrote:  We saw what happened last year when Terry was in the game. 

Bingo! Maybe Davis has gotten better at ball control/possession, but it's hard to develop offensive rhythm when the guy running the offense turns it over 5 times a game.

RE: Men's Hoops rotation thoughts - VB Card - 10-11-2020

Quote:Where did this notion that Wills plays the 1 come from? He's a 2 who can easily defend 1-4. He's not a point guard. Never handles the ball up the court (unless Ty was getting trapped/full-court pressed).

I too believe O'Connell will play a significant role this season. As I wrote above, he certainly has the size and athleticism to not get knocked around as a freshman. Taitz is more of a combo guard (as is Daejon) but has played the point before.

All this said, Davis and Wills are way too effective on defense to sit much. I don't think there will be a "rotation" as much as O'Connell will likely end up a super sub, at least in the short term.
 

I agree with this^. I think people are expecting a little too much of O'Connell. I'm a big fan, but he's not going to average more than 5 ppg. When he's on the floor, he will strictly be a facilitator and our offense will run thru Oscar and Ziaire, with Spencer Jones running around looking for open 3's. Expecting O'Connell to have a Terry-like impact just won't work for this team, and it isn't even what we should want. We should want Ziaire and Oscar to be the focal point of the offense. Everyone else should be able to benefit from opposing defense's trying to shut those 2 down.