Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Printable Version
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Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - cardcrimson - 12-15-2020
Expectations.
During Shaw's tenure, his teams have only out-performed preseason expectations twice. According to the AP pre and post season polls, only in 2012 and 2015 did we end up ranked higher at the end of the season than we were at the beginning. Both years we started at #21, and in 2012 we ended up #7 and in 2015 #3. Three times we started ranked and ended the season unranked, including 2014 where we started 11th and 2018 where we started 13th.
Evolution.
Shaw's first bowl team in 2011 averaged 278 in the air, and 211 on the ground; scored 43 per game and gave up 22. This year, we're averaging 258 in the air and 134 on the ground; scoring 26 per game and giving up 29.
Saban's first NC team in 2009 averaged 187 in the air, and 215 on the ground; scored 32 per game and gave up 12. This year, the Tide is averaging 347 in the air and 190 on the ground; scoring 50 per game and giving up 17.
While it's easy to argue that Shaw is the winningest coach in Stanford history, has two Rose Bowl wins, and has a great record against Cal; it's equally easy to argue the his tenure has been rife with not exceeding expectations and de-evolution.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - SamuelMcF - 12-15-2020
Cool.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - martyup - 12-15-2020
We're damn lucky to have him.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Phogge - 12-15-2020
Thanks Darwin.
lex24 - lex24 - 12-15-2020
(12-15-2020, 07:26 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Expectations.
During Shaw's tenure, his teams have only out-performed preseason expectations twice. According to the AP pre and post season polls, only in 2012 and 2015 did we end up ranked higher at the end of the season than we were at the beginning. Both years we started at #21, and in 2012 we ended up #7 and in 2015 #3. Three times we started ranked and ended the season unranked, including 2014 where we started 11th and 2018 where we started 13th.
Evolution.
Shaw's first bowl team in 2011 averaged 278 in the air, and 211 on the ground; scored 43 per game and gave up 22. This year, we're averaging 258 in the air and 134 on the ground; scoring 26 per game and giving up 29.
Saban's first NC team in 2009 averaged 187 in the air, and 215 on the ground; scored 32 per game and gave up 12. This year, the Tide is averaging 347 in the air and 190 on the ground; scoring 50 per game and giving up 17.
While it's easy to argue that Shaw is the winningest coach in Stanford history, has two Rose Bowl wins, and has a great record against Cal; it's equally easy to argue the his tenure has been rife with not exceeding expectations and de-evolution.
Yes it is easy to say that Shaw is the winningest coach, has 3 Pac 12 Championshps (which equals the number of Championships in the preceding 50 plus years) and 2 RB Championships (same number as previous 50) Because they are unassailable facts. The “expectations” for Stanford football for the previous 50 years was to hope to go over .500 and sneak into a low level bowl game (at least since those started).
And I get the Crimson is for Bama. But you cannot compare Alabama football to Stanford football. They are different universes. In every way.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Farm93 - 12-15-2020
When your summary of the success fails to include his domination over UCLA, one of the three Pac-12 titles (you only mentioned the two Rose Bowls), and a 4th Pac-12 North 1st place finish you know the coach has done a lot of amazing things.
Using stats this year against Saban is bonkers.
Saban got to a place where a large percentage of the team has had COVID. They players get to practice as if COVID really is not a thing, and play in stadiums with 20K+ fans in the stands.
Stanford played in empty stadiums. Had to play, practice and live on the road for 3 weeks. Oh, and lost their QB because of a testing error that definitely was a factor in the only 2 losses. Oh, and I should mention...Did Bama need to practice in a parking lot or a public park?
To compare Bama to Stanford this season? Come on.
Why not compare Shaw to others seen as coaching gurus. Folks like Harbaugh, Kelly, Franklin, Leech, Sumlin.
Let's remember that the guys (players and coaches) risked their health, lived away from their friends and family for months and have now spent a month in hotels.
Let's use this holiday season to be thankful for their dedication to entertaining alums, winning the Axe and staying healthy.
Plenty of time to return to the grumbling in 2021 once we all get access to a vaccine.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - old spanish trail - 12-15-2020
(12-15-2020, 10:02 PM)Farm93 Wrote: When your summary of the success fails to include his domination over UCLA, one of the three Pac-12 titles (you only mentioned the two Rose Bowls), and a 4th Pac-12 North 1st place finish you know the coach has done a lot of amazing things._____________________________________________________________________________
Using stats this year against Saban is bonkers.
Saban got to a place where a large percentage of the team has had COVID. They players get to practice as if COVID really is not a thing, and play in stadiums with 20K+ fans in the stands.
Stanford played in empty stadiums. Had to play, practice and live on the road for 3 weeks. Oh, and lost their QB because of a testing error that definitely was a factor in the only 2 losses. Oh, and I should mention...Did Bama need to practice in a parking lot or a public park?
To compare Bama to Stanford this season? Come on.
Why not compare Shaw to others seen as coaching gurus. Folks like Harbaugh, Kelly, Franklin, Leech, Sumlin.
Let's remember that the guys (players and coaches) risked their health, lived away from their friends and family for months and have now spent a month in hotels.
Let's use this holiday season to be thankful for their dedication to entertaining alums, winning the Axe and staying healthy.
Plenty of time to return to the grumbling in 2021 once we all get access to a vaccine.
Good on ya, Farm.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - cardcrimson - 12-15-2020
(12-15-2020, 10:12 PM)old spanish trail Wrote: [quote="Farm93" pid='301525' dateline='1608094977']
To compare Bama to Stanford this season? Come on.
Why not compare Shaw to others seen as coaching gurus. Folks like Harbaugh, Kelly, Franklin, Leech, Sumlin.
I guess I should have used last year's stats, when we were four and eight. . . .
Two things, I was surprised that Shaw's teams seemed to consistently underperform their preseason rankings, and how much Saban's teams have adjusted over the decade.
(12-15-2020, 09:59 PM)lex24 Wrote: And I get the Crimson is for Bama. But you cannot compare Alabama football to Stanford football. They are different universes. In every way.
Wrong O Mary Lou
or even better
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5b83c371-c156-48fe-b97f-1ea10bd2cc2a
Try the school with the original red color "mascot"
And apparently I wasn't clear enough. I'm not comparing Stanford to Alabama. I'm comparing the evolution of Alabama football over the last decade to the lack of evolution of Stanford football over the last decade. Alabama went from a dominant, stifling defense and a mediocre offense, to a stout defense with a wildly effective offense. Starting quarterbacks the likes of McElroy, McCarron, Sims, and Coker to Hurts, Tua, and Jones. It's been an incredible transformation of philosophy and scheme over the years, and obviously successful. . . .
lex24 - lex24 - 12-15-2020
(12-15-2020, 10:22 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(12-15-2020, 10:12 PM)old spanish trail Wrote: [quote="Farm93" pid='301525' dateline='1608094977']
To compare Bama to Stanford this season? Come on.
Why not compare Shaw to others seen as coaching gurus. Folks like Harbaugh, Kelly, Franklin, Leech, Sumlin.
I guess I should have used last year's stats, when we were four and eight. . . .
Two things, I was surprised that Shaw's teams seemed to consistently underperform their preseason rankings, and how much Saban's teams have adjusted over the decade.
(12-15-2020, 09:59 PM)lex24 Wrote: And I get the Crimson is for Bama. But you cannot compare Alabama football to Stanford football. They are different universes. In every way.
Wrong O Mary Lou
or even better
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5b83c371-c156-48fe-b97f-1ea10bd2cc2a
Try the school with the original red color "mascot"
And apparently I wasn't clear enough. I'm not comparing Stanford to Alabama. I'm comparing the evolution of Alabama football over the last decade to the lack of evolution of Stanford football over the last decade. Alabama went from a dominant, stifling defense and a mediocre offense, to a stout defense with a wildly effective offense. Starting quarterbacks the likes of McElroy, McCarron, Sims, and Coker to Hurts, Tua, and Jones. It's been an incredible transformation of philosophy and scheme over the years, and obviously successful. . . .
Sorry about that Crimson. I’ll pahk your cah now..... :).
And while I get the point you are trying to make, when you get the pick of the litter every year, you can do darn well what you please.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Hulk01 - 12-16-2020
Alabama's assistant coaches are paid a total of $8.85 million a year.
At Michigan, that number is $6.27 million.
At Washington, $5.06 million.
At Wisconsin, $4.19 million.
At Colorado, $3.3 million.
Like every program in the country, Alabama gets what it pays for
and other programs suffer by comparison to it.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - slide - 12-16-2020
(12-16-2020, 08:28 AM)Hulk01 Wrote: Alabama's assistant coaches are paid a total of $8.85 million a year.
At Michigan, that number is $6.27 million.
At Washington, $5.06 million.
At Wisconsin, $4.19 million.
At Colorado, $3.3 million.
Like every program in the country, Alabama gets what it pays for
and other programs suffer by comparison to it.
Hulk -- what is your guess on the Stanford number? may be $2M?
we know Shaw is $4.5+M and recently extended...
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - winflop - 12-16-2020
(12-15-2020, 08:59 PM)martyup Wrote: We're damn lucky to have him.
We've been damn lucky to have him. I'm not sure that is still the case.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Hulk01 - 12-16-2020
(12-16-2020, 09:11 AM)slide Wrote:(12-16-2020, 08:28 AM)Hulk01 Wrote: Alabama's assistant coaches are paid a total of $8.85 million a year.
At Michigan, that number is $6.27 million.
At Washington, $5.06 million.
At Wisconsin, $4.19 million.
At Colorado, $3.3 million.
Like every program in the country, Alabama gets what it pays for
and other programs suffer by comparison to it.
Hulk -- what is your guess on the Stanford number? may be $2M?
we know Shaw is $4.5+M and recently extended...
I assume we are third in the conference for assistant coaches' salaries, adjusted for cost of living.
Those numbers correlate almost perfectly with the respective school's Pac 12 win-loss records over the last decade.
Utah and Washington State slightly underperform, ASU overperforms.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - JJJ - 12-16-2020
I didn’t think this article was worth starting another thread so I’ll put it here.
Sean Payton thinks Shaw ought to get more NFL calls.
Quote:Payton brought up the case of Stanford head coach David Shaw, whom he worked with on the Philadelphia Eagles’ staff in 1997. Shaw has said that he doesn’t want to leave the college game, but as Payton noted, Steve Spurrier and Nick Saban and first-year Carolina Panthers head coach Matt Rhule all said they didn’t want to leave the college game — until teams made it crystal clear that they wanted them, and stepped up their compensation to make it impossible for those men to say no.
“Why is it that a young, talented coach, Stanford graduate, West Coast offense, offensive guy, and I always begin with David because I know him and I know how talented he is,” Payton said. “Now he may turn down all of those opportunities, but you know what, he didn’t have those opportunities where someone said, ‘We have to have him.’ Because someone said, ‘We have to have Nick’ or Steve or one of these other college coaches or Matt, and don’t get me started.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/sean-payton-new-orleans-saints-outspoken-000323098.html
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - 82lsju - 12-16-2020
(12-16-2020, 09:11 AM)slide Wrote:(12-16-2020, 08:28 AM)Hulk01 Wrote: Alabama's assistant coaches are paid a total of $8.85 million a year.
At Michigan, that number is $6.27 million.
At Washington, $5.06 million.
At Wisconsin, $4.19 million.
At Colorado, $3.3 million.
Like every program in the country, Alabama gets what it pays for
and other programs suffer by comparison to it.
Hulk -- what is your guess on the Stanford number? may be $2M?
we know Shaw is $4.5+M and recently extended...
here's the numbers from USA Today for public Universities
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/football/assistant?utm_email=14F514FCF585D5B4B44B24C942&g2i_eui=%2fM6OhYDmKiHoQEAxq86NTADY8x1sTmfL&g2i_source=newsletter&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fsports.usatoday.com%2fncaa%2fsalaries%2ffootball%2fassistant&utm_campaign=bang-mult-nl-pac-12-hotline-nl
in the Pac-12
UW $5.1m
OU $4.8m
UU $4.3m
UCLA $4.3m
ASU $3.7m
WSU $3.6m
Cal $3.6m
OSU $3.4m
CU $3.3m
UA $3.1m
USC ??
LSJU ??
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Hulk01 - 12-16-2020
And here is the list, adjusted for cost of living:
1. Oregon
2. Utah
3. Washington
4. WSU
5. ASU
6. UCLA
7. Oregon State
8. Arizona
9. Colorado
10. California
I assume the actual list would move USC into the top spot.
Less clear about Stanford, but I suspect third behind Oregon.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - BostonCard - 12-16-2020
Minor nit, the numbers should be adjusted for cost of living, which adjusts geographically, not inflation, which adjusts temporally.
Also, ASU is listed twice and Cal is missing.
BC
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Hulk01 - 12-16-2020
When you adjust for cost of living, there is quite a gap in overall coaches' pay.
Oregon pays over 30 per more in assistant coaches' salaries than Cal,
and the cost of living in Eugene is ~22 percent lower than in Berkeley.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - slide - 12-16-2020
(12-16-2020, 12:13 PM)82lsju Wrote: Hulk -- what is your guess on the Stanford number? may be $2M?
we know Shaw is $4.5+M and recently extended...
here's the numbers from USA Today for public Universities
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/football/assistant?utm_email=14F514FCF585D5B4B44B24C942&g2i_eui=%2fM6OhYDmKiHoQEAxq86NTADY8x1sTmfL&g2i_source=newsletter&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fsports.usatoday.com%2fncaa%2fsalaries%2ffootball%2fassistant&utm_campaign=bang-mult-nl-pac-12-hotline-nl
in the Pac-12
UW $5.1m
OU $4.8m
UU $4.3m
UCLA $4.3m
ASU $3.7m
WSU $3.6m
Cal $3.6m
OSU $3.4m
CU $3.3m
UA $3.1m
USC ??
LSJU ??
[/quote]
thanks Eric and Hulk.
my guess is we'd be closer to 9th in the Pac-12 in assistant's pay as opposed to 3rd. 3rd in Pac is $4.3m/10 ($430,000 per coach). I'd guess again that figure would be close to our highest paid assistant coach with the lowest in the $150,000 range.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - JJJ - 12-16-2020
This may already be incorporated in one adjustment or another, but I was told that housing provided by the university was one of the big selling points for a Stanford assistant (especially given the cost of getting a comparable place on your own dime).