Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone?

Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - Printable Version

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Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - OutsiderFan - 09-30-2022

Earlier this week in the aftermath of the Niners losing Trent Williams and Azeez Al-Shaair for several weeks, on the heels of losing Trey Lance for the season and Elijah Mitchell for a coupe months, I told a friend my interest in NFL football was waning because it is becoming hard to root for a team that is never representative of what it was suppose to be, and stupid to me for these players to be paid so much money and routinely put in positions to miss so much time due to injury. Yes, athletes get injured in other sports, but the frequency and severity of football injuries is just at another level.

Then I saw a video clip of the Tua Tagovailoa head injury from last night. Obviously, Trent Williams isn't a QB, but Trey Lance is. Tua Tagoavailoa is. The common denominator is they are both young QBs being battered to pieces. It's not good for the game, to say nothing of the players themselves.

Listening to ESPN radio this week, I heard scoring is way down in the NFL through three weeks. Why might this be? Well, one reason is coaches are so terrified of players getting injured in preseason that the starters don't play much if at all, which makes Steve Young say the first month of the season is like pre-season in terms of offenses getting the work they need to be coordinated. Defenses being ahead of offenses would then lead to lower scoring, despite every rule in the book to the benefit of offenses. The Warriors had their first pre-season game today. Steph Curry played. The fact NFL coaches are too afraid to play starters in pre-season games says the sport has a problem. It not only is impacting player health, but low scoring and bad offensive showings like Niners 10 Broncos 11, does nothing but degrade the quality of the product. I should be rabidly anticipating Niners-Rams on MNF. I'm not. Maybe I'll watch, but I'm not feeling passion for it at all.

The QB position is the most important position in sports, and while there are rules to protect QBs, if the objective is to keep them playing, how does it make sense to allow them to be hit at all? If QBs had flags that had to be pulled to get a sack (hit behind LOS), we would potentially see a reality where QBs couldn't be hit at all. Makes the idea that Kyle Shanahan purposely ran Lance like a RB to take more hits, that much more stupid.

Anyway, maybe flags on QBs isn't the answer. Maybe the players are simply too big and fast for the sport to be played with actual human beings and keep my interest any longer. Maybe Troy Vincent was right when he said the future of football is flag.

I'm just really struggling with the fact something I have loved so much and has been a large part of my best relationships, is now turning me off with unregulated professionalization and free agency ruining of college football (Cal fans are now taking up collections to pay RB Jadyn Ott, to hopefully ward off him being poached by another school in the transfer portal who will offer him more "NIL" money), and the non-stop significant injuries I see happening to Niners players and players around the NFL.

Football was always an escape that brought me joy. Not so much anymore. I just wanted to vent and see if anyone has similar feelings about football these days, and see what others have to say about it. There is more going on here than just concern about CTE.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - 81alum - 09-30-2022

(09-30-2022, 06:58 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Earlier this week in the aftermath of the Niners losing Trent Williams and Azeez Al-Shaair for several weeks, on the heels of losing Trey Lance for the season and Elijah Mitchell for a coupe months, I told him my interest in NFL football was waning because it is becoming hard to root for a team that is never representative of what it was suppose to be, and stupid to me for these players to be paid so much money and routinely put in positions to miss so much time due to injury. Yes, athletes get injured in other sports, but the frequency and severity of football injuries is just at another level.

Then I saw a video clip of the Tua Tagovailoa head injury from last night. Obviously, Trent Williams isn't a QB, but Trey Lance is. Tua Tagoavailoa is. The common denominator is they are both young QBs being battered to pieces. It's not good for the game, to say nothing of the players themselves.

Listening to ESPN radio this week, I heard scoring is way down in the NFL through three weeks. Why might this be? Well, one reason is coaches are so terrified of players getting injured in preseason that the starters don't play much if at all, which makes Steve Young say the first month of the season is like pre-season in terms of offenses getting the work they need to be coordinated. Defenses being ahead of offenses would then lead to lower scoring, despite every rule in the book to the benefit of offenses. The Warriors had their first pre-season game today. Steph Curry played. The fact NFL coaches are too afraid to play starters in pre-season games says the sport has a problem. It not only is impacting player health, but low scoring and bad offensive showings like Niners 10 Broncos 11, does nothing but degrade the quality of the product. I should be rabidly anticipating Niners-Rams on MNF. I'm not. Maybe I'll watch, but I'm not feeling passion for it at all.

The QB position is the most important position in sports, and while there are rules to protect QBs, if the objective is to keep them playing, how does it make sense to allow them to be hit at all? If QBs had flags that had to be pulled to get a sack (hit behind LOS), we would potentially see a reality where QBs couldn't be hit at all. Makes the idea that Kyle Shanahan purposely ran Lance like a RB to take more hits, that much more stupid.

Anyway, maybe flags on QBs isn't the answer. Maybe the players are simply too big and fast for the sport to be played with actual human beings and keep my interest any longer. Maybe Troy Vincent was right when he said the future of football is flag.

I'm just really struggling with the fact something I have loved so much and has been a large part of my best relationships, is now turning me off with unregulated professionalization and free agency ruining of college football (Cal fans are now taking up collections to pay RB Jadyn Ott, to hopefully ward off him being poached by another school in the transfer portal who will offer him more "NIL" money), and the non-stop significant injuries I see happening to Niners players and players around the NFL.

Football was always an escape that brought me joy. Not so much anymore. I just wanted to vent and see if anyone has similar feelings about football these days, and see what others have to say about it. There is more going on here than just concern about CTE.

I'm afraid you captured my sentiments exactly. I have loved this game for more than half a century, but my passion for it is waning for all the reasons you cite. I'm not ready to give up yet, but I find myself watching less and less of it. There was a time when I watched every 49ers game, including the preseason games, and every Stanford game--even the most lopsided losses which I would stick out to the end. Now I skip about half the games and turn them off midway if my team is doing poorly. The "fanaticism" in my fandom is gone.

As for flag football--I've also been thinking a lot about that. I'll keep an open mind--what would we have to lose if the alternative is brain injury? The players with the most CTE issues are linemen, though, and I have no idea what flag football would do about blocking on the line, which is really the core of the entire game. The new game would not very much resemble the old game. It would have to be appreciated as something entirely different.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - needle - 09-30-2022

Change the rules to prohibit touching an opponent’s head for any reason. Flag football would probably follow from that, though there could possibly be other options.

I don’t think this new sport would be especially popular.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - gailtate - 09-30-2022

You can make the game safer. But you'll never make it safe. It's the basic nature of the game.
Not sure where I saw or heard this but "Football is America's iconic game for a reason. It's all about territory, violence and money."

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - lex24 - 09-30-2022

(09-30-2022, 06:58 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Earlier this week in the aftermath of the Niners losing Trent Williams and Azeez Al-Shaair for several weeks, on the heels of losing Trey Lance for the season and Elijah Mitchell for a coupe months, I told a friend my interest in NFL football was waning because it is becoming hard to root for a team that is never representative of what it was suppose to be, and stupid to me for these players to be paid so much money and routinely put in positions to miss so much time due to injury. Yes, athletes get injured in other sports, but the frequency and severity of football injuries is just at another level.

Then I saw a video clip of the Tua Tagovailoa head injury from last night. Obviously, Trent Williams isn't a QB, but Trey Lance is. Tua Tagoavailoa is. The common denominator is they are both young QBs being battered to pieces. It's not good for the game, to say nothing of the players themselves.

Listening to ESPN radio this week, I heard scoring is way down in the NFL through three weeks. Why might this be? Well, one reason is coaches are so terrified of players getting injured in preseason that the starters don't play much if at all, which makes Steve Young say the first month of the season is like pre-season in terms of offenses getting the work they need to be coordinated. Defenses being ahead of offenses would then lead to lower scoring, despite every rule in the book to the benefit of offenses. The Warriors had their first pre-season game today. Steph Curry played. The fact NFL coaches are too afraid to play starters in pre-season games says the sport has a problem. It not only is impacting player health, but low scoring and bad offensive showings like Niners 10 Broncos 11, does nothing but degrade the quality of the product. I should be rabidly anticipating Niners-Rams on MNF. I'm not. Maybe I'll watch, but I'm not feeling passion for it at all.

The QB position is the most important position in sports, and while there are rules to protect QBs, if the objective is to keep them playing, how does it make sense to allow them to be hit at all? If QBs had flags that had to be pulled to get a sack (hit behind LOS), we would potentially see a reality where QBs couldn't be hit at all. Makes the idea that Kyle Shanahan purposely ran Lance like a RB to take more hits, that much more stupid.

Anyway, maybe flags on QBs isn't the answer. Maybe the players are simply too big and fast for the sport to be played with actual human beings and keep my interest any longer. Maybe Troy Vincent was right when he said the future of football is flag.

I'm just really struggling with the fact something I have loved so much and has been a large part of my best relationships, is now turning me off with unregulated professionalization and free agency ruining of college football (Cal fans are now taking up collections to pay RB Jadyn Ott, to hopefully ward off him being poached by another school in the transfer portal who will offer him more "NIL" money), and the non-stop significant injuries I see happening to Niners players and players around the NFL.

Football was always an escape that brought me joy. Not so much anymore. I just wanted to vent and see if anyone has similar feelings about football these days, and see what others have to say about it. There is more going on here than just concern about CTE.

So, you are feeling guilty watching football. Stop watching. Easy answer.

It’s a violent game. Always has been, always will be. Those who play it understand the risks. As for QB’s there has never been a “safer” time. If you doubt that, go watch Jim Plunkett while with NE.

(09-30-2022, 07:59 AM)needle Wrote: Change the rules to prohibit touching an opponent’s head for any reason. Flag football would probably follow from that, though there could possibly be other options.

I don’t think this new sport would be especially popular.

That’s impossible. RBs lower their head, lineman are always going to have situations where they hit each other with the helmet.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - CardinalSagehen - 09-30-2022

Here is what one man recently connected to Stanford Football thinks.

[twitter]https://twitter.com/bransonbragg/status/1575700512321654784?s=20&t=CDmBNs98bt61sS8SqLPFkQ[/twitter]

Earlier in the day, before the game, Dr. Nowinski had tweeted this.
[twitter]https://twitter.com/ChrisNowinski1/status/1575578179581771776?s=20&t=hFO_dug3CRS0pMzR5Kw3Yg[/twitter]

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - lex24 - 09-30-2022

(09-30-2022, 10:44 AM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: Here is what one man recently connected to Stanford Football thinks.

[twitter]https://twitter.com/bransonbragg/status/1575700512321654784?s=20&t=CDmBNs98bt61sS8SqLPFkQ[/twitter]

Incidentally, earlier in the day, before the game, Dr. Nowinski had tweeted this.
[twitter]https://twitter.com/ChrisNowinski1/status/1575578179581771776?s=20&t=hFO_dug3CRS0pMzR5Kw3Yg[/twitter]

Tua shouldn’t have played. No question. But supposedly he did not sustain a concussion on Sunday. If that is wrong and he was concussed, the Dolphins should be severely punished. Big fine. And they forfeit a high away a high draft pick in ‘23. Also, look at filing charges against the Drs with the medical board.

Also, let’s have some transparency on the process. Coaches are, supposedly, not involved. And they shouldn’t be. But were they in reality? This is something that should be thoroughly investigated. In broad daylight. (If protocol was followed, Drs indicated no concussion AND there was no interference/involvement from the coach or front office, then there should be no penalty to the organization. But the Drs still should come under scrutiny.)

Then there is Herbert. Team down by 4 TDS with a couple minutes left. He’s playing with a fractured rib. And he trots out to finish game. Why? Cause according to Staley, he “insisted” on finishing the game. AYFKM? You don’t allow him the choice. You are the friggin head coach. He’s not just your QB. He’s the center of your franchise. There is risk of further injury. And no benefit. Coaching malpractice. Just incredibly idiotic.

This won’t be popular. But I think it’s true. Part of the reason we love football is the violence. Think of how fondly we feel about John Lynch. Or, as Niner fans, Ronnie Lott. They pulverized receivers. Can’t do today what they did. We knew the carnage - hell Lynch knocked out two ND receivers in that ‘92 game. I remember when the Niners played Pittsburgh in ‘81 and both Swann and Stallworth were knocked out.

We can pretend that we now know more. But seriously, was it ever “ok” to have a concussion. CTE has changed perceptions. A little. But the fact is football players are todays equivalents to Roman Gladiators. No one gets eaten, at least. (And it’s not as bad as UFC. To which I draw my admittedly rather arbitrary line).

My point is, that I find the gnashing of teeth a bit much. You know what the game is. If you watch it you are supporting the violence that goes with it. And no amount of “venting” will change that.

Football keeps getting more and more popular. Despite increased knowledge of the damage it inflicts. If that truly bothers you, stop watching. Because otherwise all you’re doing is trying to assuage your guilt by showing your “concern”. And talk is always cheap.

Just so it’s clear - I don’t hold myself above the fray. I love football. Part of the reason is the hard hitting. In other words the violent aspect. Not proud that I do. But such is the case.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - lex24 - 09-30-2022

Here is the NFL’s concussion protocol: https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/resources/fact-sheets/nfl-head-neck-and-spine-committee-s-concussion-diagnosis-and-management-protocol.

One part I’d like to see changed is which Dr makes the ultimate decision. It’s now the team Dr in consultation with the “Unaffiliated Neurotrama Consultant”. I’d think the UNC is better suited to make the decision. First, he or she is a neurologist or at least has some head trauma experience. Second, the UNC is supposedly independent and thus less prone, in my opinion, to be motivated by “team” considerations.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - cardcrimson - 09-30-2022

(09-30-2022, 10:57 AM)lex24 Wrote: Just so it’s clear - I don’t hold myself above the fray. I love football. Part of the reason is the hard hitting. In other words the violent aspect. Not proud that I do. But such is the case.

You would have been a great Roman. . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujchK0kAntg

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - WBB fan - 09-30-2022

I used to enjoy football, began going to college games when I was in middle school, and when we moved to the Bay Area in 1970, we began going to every Stanford home game, taking our then quite young children. But now I don't go at all, although my Stanford grad husband remains loyal and attends every game. As I've become more aware of CTE, my reaction is something needs to be done. And the injurty situation is just unacceptable. Yes, football has always been "violent," but I honestly believe it is more so today than in the past. And one thing that so many comments before this miss is that the players of today are much bigger, stronger, faster, etc. than in years past. That's not insignificant re the injury issue.

One thing that does make me think more positively about Stanford football than that of other schools is that my sense is that Shaw actually cares both about his players as people and also as students. Yes, I know that Shaw has been strongly criticized on the Cardboard, but frankly, I think he's a really good fit for Stanford in that he appreciates academics and wants players who feel the same way. I never felt that way about Harbaugh. He might have been a good football coach, but I never had the feeling that he "got" Stanford, that he had any understanding that his players were there to get an education as well as play football. Further, I believe that if a coach values education, he's less likely to put a player with a questionable concussion situation into a game, and if he cares about that player as a person, he's not going to let an already injured play demand to be put in. Sorry all you football fans, just my rant on this.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - lex24 - 09-30-2022

(09-30-2022, 02:12 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:
(09-30-2022, 10:57 AM)lex24 Wrote: Just so it’s clear - I don’t hold myself above the fray. I love football. Part of the reason is the hard hitting. In other words the violent aspect. Not proud that I do. But such is the case.

You would have been a great Roman. . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujchK0kAntg

Great movie. Great actor. “I Claudius” is one of Masterpiece Theatre's best series.

(09-30-2022, 03:09 PM)WBB fan Wrote: I used to enjoy football, began going to college games when I was in middle school, and when we moved to the Bay Area in 1970, we began going to every Stanford home game, taking our then quite young children. But now I don't go at all, although my Stanford grad husband remains loyal and attends every game. As I've become more aware of CTE, my reaction is something needs to be done. And the injurty situation is just unacceptable. Yes, football has always been "violent," but I honestly believe it is more so today than in the past. And one thing that so many comments before this miss is that the players of today are much bigger, stronger, faster, etc. than in years past. That's not insignificant re the injury issue.

One thing that does make me think more positively about Stanford football than that of other schools is that my sense is that Shaw actually cares both about his players as people and also as students. Yes, I know that Shaw has been strongly criticized on the Cardboard, but frankly, I think he's a really good fit for Stanford in that he appreciates academics and wants players who feel the same way. I never felt that way about Harbaugh. He might have been a good football coach, but I never had the feeling that he "got" Stanford, that he had any understanding that his players were there to get an education as well as play football. Further, I believe that if a coach values education, he's less likely to put a player with a questionable concussion situation into a game, and if he cares about that player as a person, he's not going to let an already injured play demand to be put in. Sorry all you football fans, just my rant on this.

I respect that you’ve stopped watching.

As for today vs the past, i think it’s actually less violent. Watch old games. I remember a Raider-Jets game where Ben Davidson picked up Namath and dumped him on his head. Think back to Deacon Jones. What was his signature move - the head slap. A shot to the o-lineman’s head. Done repeatedly. When a receiver went over the middle, if the pass was high and the DB had him lined up, the receiver would get blasted. Legally. Tatum (nicknamed “The Assassin”) on Stingley. Considered a legal hit at the time. Players didn’t get concussions back then. They “had their bell rung”. And trotted back out for more. (Think Lynch ‘92 vs ND.)

As you note, the collisions now involve much bigger and faster men. That makes things seem more violent. But it’s just physics. The old days were, imo, much worse in terms of what players could legally do to each other.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - 81alum - 09-30-2022

CTE is not the same thing as concussions, as I have pointed out before, and it does seem as if football is much more closely aligned with CTE than other sports. But at my current university the number of concussions per capita had football not in first place:

1) Women's gymnastics

2) Men's and women's soccer

3) Football

So let's bear in mind that there are multiple sports in which concussions are an issue, and football is not necessarily the worst of them. (At least until we get more research to clarify how all those sub-concussive events pile up to cause CTE in former football players.)

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - TonyLima - 09-30-2022

Sadly, I have forgotten the name of the pundit who made this suggestion. New rule: no one can touch the QB as long as he is wearing a skirt.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - gailtate - 10-01-2022

(09-30-2022, 03:09 PM)WBB fan Wrote: I used to enjoy football, began going to college games when I was in middle school, and when we moved to the Bay Area in 1970, we began going to every Stanford home game, taking our then quite young children. But now I don't go at all, although my Stanford grad husband remains loyal and attends every game. As I've become more aware of CTE, my reaction is something needs to be done. And the injurty situation is just unacceptable. Yes, football has always been "violent," but I honestly believe it is more so today than in the past. And one thing that so many comments before this miss is that the players of today are much bigger, stronger, faster, etc. than in years past. That's not insignificant re the injury issue.

One thing that does make me think more positively about Stanford football than that of other schools is that my sense is that Shaw actually cares both about his players as people and also as students. Yes, I know that Shaw has been strongly criticized on the Cardboard, but frankly, I think he's a really good fit for Stanford in that he appreciates academics and wants players who feel the same way. I never felt that way about Harbaugh. He might have been a good football coach, but I never had the feeling that he "got" Stanford, that he had any understanding that his players were there to get an education as well as play football. Further, I believe that if a coach values education, he's less likely to put a player with a questionable concussion situation into a game, and if he cares about that player as a person, he's not going to let an already injured play demand to be put in. Sorry all you football fans, just my rant on this.

Yes, Shaw is a good fit for Stanford but not in the position he now holds. His exemplary character is all the things you cite and more. But he is failing miserably right now at the job he's in. This has done a net disservice to the student athletes for multiple years.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - dabigv13 - 10-01-2022

The players know it's a dangerous game and no one is forcing them to play. Equipment and rules changes have made it safer than before. I don't have moral qualms about watching football because of the violence.

Logging is a lot more dangerous than being a football player and they make a lot less money. Never hear anything about boycotting wood.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - 82lsju - 10-01-2022

Quote:Unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant who evaluated Miami Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa fired over 'several mistakes,' sources say

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34702740

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - lex24 - 10-01-2022

(10-01-2022, 02:06 PM)82lsju Wrote:
Quote:Unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant who evaluated Miami Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa fired over 'several mistakes,' sources say

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34702740

Good. Now let’s have an investigation to determine if coaches were in anyway involved. If so, the coach(es) should be heavily fined and suspended for several games.

RE: Is it time for flags on QBs? Everyone? - TonyLima - 10-01-2022

(10-01-2022, 05:54 PM)lex24 Wrote:
(10-01-2022, 02:06 PM)82lsju Wrote:
Quote:Unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant who evaluated Miami Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa fired over 'several mistakes,' sources say

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34702740

Good. Now let’s have an investigation to determine if coaches were in anyway involved. If so, the coach(es) should be heavily fined and suspended for several games.

*fired