WBB: How to fix the offense - Printable Version

WBB: How to fix the offense - Printable Version

+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: WBB: How to fix the offense (/thread-23967.html)

Pages: 1 2

WBB: How to fix the offense - 81alum - 01-15-2023

We have all seen our once vaunted offense grind slower and slower as opposing coaches finally figured out the perfect defensive strategy for us. This will continue until we can prove we can beat it.

What is this strategy? Perhaps some of you who have played can be more specific, but the other team puts its best perimeter defender closely on Jump, plays "man" but with all other players they will sag off them into the paint unless their mark comes into the paint. This leaves our players frequently open for jumpshots, but denies us the ability to drive or to pass into the paint. While technically a "man" defense, it has the same effect as a well known junk defense called the "box and 1" in which four players play a zone and 1 player follows the opponent's best player.

It would seem that the way to defeat this is similar as the way to defeat a zone--by making mid range jumpers and treys.

How do we do that?
1) Can Lepolo make more treys and Jones start hitting the midrange? That might solve the problem if those two just scored more from distance.
2) Do we need different players on the floor? Some have mentioned Prechtel. Emma-Nnopu might be heating up. Who?
3) How do we get Jump going? Are there really no more effective screens we can try?
4) Can Iriafen start hitting more short jumpers? In the past she had a good mid range shot, and she has made a couple of short jumpers recently.

Next weekend we get two excellent teams at our place: Utah and Colorado. Colorado in particular has the capability of putting on a defense like USC. We need this problem solved.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - mbdude - 01-15-2023

1 thought that crossed my mind was starting jump at top of key , gives more options for screens.
If jump is in the corner in my opinion opposition can put worst perimeter defender on her; if the goal is just to prevent her from getting the ball. Frees up a better defender

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - Card10Fan - 01-15-2023

Jones has never been a good 3 point shooter but she's currently shooting the worst in her 4 years. 3/28 on the season = 10%
We need perimeter threats to space the floor and open up the inside. I say try more Demetre, Bosgana, Nivar, and less Haley Jones at the guard spot. Jones looked very out of sorts running the point in the 4th quarter. I'd rather have Lepolo or one of the other guards bring the ball up, not Jones.

We need to play faster and in transition more (we had zero fast break points today). We need to screen, cut, and move better. Everyone stands around and waits for someone else to make a play. There is no crisp movement, cutting, passing that we're used to.

I'm glad the season is not lost but it also feels like we've known these issues for quite some time and clearly haven't solved them. The fact that Tara is still tinkering a lot with lineups and who to bring in when is problematic. Those things should be clear at this point in the season yet they are not. I see more loses looming unless we can correct things quickly.

I think our senior leaders need to step up. You see games where upperclassmen literally will their team to victory by any means necessary. Our experienced core needs to be better all around - it starts with our senior leaders.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - TheFarm07 - 01-15-2023

Wasn't it recently reiterated and is it true that Tara dislikes taking midrange jumpers, because of the lower efficiency (more misses than points in the paints/layups, but fewer points per made shot than three pointers)?

If so, then any change to the offensive scheme would either have to find another solution or Tara would have to overcome her dislike for them. Plus, because we haven't been focusing on our offense around it, we might not be as confident in taking them, which would have played a role in our tentativeness and ice cold shooting.

Having said all that, I think Jones has shown she can hit a short or midrange jumper in the past and if my memory hasn't failed me yet, both Demetre and Prechtel (in limited instances) has demonstrated a capability to do so as well.

Can Lepolo hit the midrange? One would assume if she can make the three, a shorter distance would be within the realm of possibility too.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - BobK - 01-15-2023

Better ball movement. I thought against ucla it was good it’s been good most of the year. Today Lepolo or Jones it was sooo slow.
Of course 4 for 21 from three was the brobdingnagian killer. However a faster style might help that. More open threes as in better looks.
All in all we played poorly today. We are 17-2. We played much better than today in every single game. The sky isn’t falling

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - chimera - 01-15-2023

I think we need something different for Jump and from her. She is a fantastic shooter and a solid defender, but she doesn't add much else to the stat sheet generally - few rebounds, few assists, few steals. Having her out there spaces the floor well even if she doesn't get shots up, but that doesn't seem to be helping the offense flow lately. She has shown a mid-range shot and she is a good FT shooter so that spot should be fine. Maybe work to free her up elsewhere on the court, not just behind the line? Maybe work on using her better as a passer or have her really start driving on defenders more when they close out hard? I appreciate Jump a lot as a player. She is very steady in what she does. I do think we need more from her on days she is not open for threes. May not be her choice but spacing the floor with her when the offense is struggling isn't really going to change the struggle.

I have thought for a few games watching the subbing, that the coaches are still searching for a rotation they are happy with. We have a deep bench but not a consistent one. It is nice to be able to pick and choose who to put out there at any given time. The downside of that is nobody really settles into a role that they fill consistently game after game. Playing subs for a few minutes to see if they will help and then subbing them out if they don't is not wrong. You don't want to play someone who is not doing what you need them to do. But yeah, those who say hey, they never get comfortable and maybe don't play their best have a point. It is a lot easier when you know what 7 or 8 players are going to play and that nobody else probably will. Juggling this bench has not been easy I don't think.

One of the most important things I wanted to see this season, for the team and for the player, was for Jones to get her three ball going. That she doesn't seem able to do that really hurts the offense and her own game. I'm sure she tried hard and is trying hard. I have no solution. Seems like almost everyone went cold at once. Brink has a nice three ball but lately not so much.

I really don't know how to solve the offense without better shooting from deep and/or trying more midrange stuff sometimes. Can't drive if a good defensive team clogs the lane. Hard to pass inside too. Good think I am not a coach.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - 81alum - 01-15-2023

I'm sure I've heard at a chalk talk that Tara does indeed dislike midrange jumpers as the least bang-for-the-buck comparing points scored with shooting percentage. She is very interested in analytics. Furthermore, when the assistant coaches told us at chalk talk in recent weeks that the team was working on "shot selection" and "taking better shots" I think they meant higher percentage shots--layups and treys.

It was shortly after I began to hear the talk about "taking better shots" that I noticed the offense stagnating and a lot of time consumed passing the ball around the perimeter. I wonder if they have been instructed NOT to take mid range jumpers, or if their spontaneity had been drained and they were overthinking. In addition, the trouble with all those analytics is--the defense knows them just as well as the offense, and can defend accordingly.

This problem is VERY reminiscent--almost eerily so--with the problem we had a few years ago when teams figured out we were flummoxed by the zone. We even lost at home to Western Illinois. Our three point shooting had just gone flat and without it the zone was killing us. Anna Wilson shot 3/15 from three point range that game, Williams was 3/11, Smith was 0/3, etc.

Back then, at a chalk talk we learned that the zone at first had taken us by surprise since few teams would play it, and we had to install a zone offense deep into the season. Several things helped. First, Nadia Fingall was instructed to stand at the elbow, almost at the free throw line, in the soft part of the zone. She would get the ball and shoot from there. Second, McPhee and Carrington simply had the ability to drive through zones to the basket and score on contorted shots.

That 17-18 season was the worst season in a couple of decades, with 11 losses, so I don't think I want to make too close a comparison. But the feeling that teams have "solved" our offense and we are having problems "solving" their defense gives me an unpleasantly familiar feeling.

I wonder which of our bigs could hit the shot from the elbow consistently--at least 50% of the time. Maybe Betts, Iriafen, Brink, or Prechtel? I've seen all of them except Belibi able to do that. Using Betts as a 10 foot jump shooter as we did Fingall might work if they spend a week practicing it.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - CompSci87 - 01-15-2023

This analytics point about avoiding midrange jumpers is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Certainly an open 3 by a good 3 point shooter is a better shot than an open long 2. However, a contested 3 is not necessarily better than an open 2, nor is a 3 by a shooter who doesn't have 3 point range. And a 3 or layup that you don't take at all because you aren't open and/or are denied the ball by the defense is worth 0 points.

So if the opponent is totally dedicated to stopping shots in the paint and 3s by your good shooters, you should certainly still challenge the D and take those shots when they are open. But when they aren't, you have to create, take, and make what the defense gives you.

I'm sure Tara is totally aware of this with her years of experience. But we're running a new offense this year, and it may need more work, either to learn how to run it more effectively, or to make additions and tweaks. Probably both.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - TheFarm07 - 01-16-2023

The video of the postgame press conference is not up yet, but the recap on GoStanford.com had quotes from the presser:

Tara: "It wasn't just turnovers; it was bad shots, I don't know that we can do anything any worse. This has to be rock bottom in terms of execution offensively, lack of screening."

"We haven't shot the ball really well in the last couple of games," VanDerveer said. "But we have to be grittier. I just feel like we have to be a much more competitive, aggressive, grittier team. Obviously, some shots didn't go down, but maybe it's taking better shots. Our field goal percentage [30.9%] was abysmal, and theirs was not much better."

I am not sure how grittier will translate into better results, but as we know, Tara can be vague and evasive in answering questions and won't give away any specifics.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - M T - 01-16-2023

(01-15-2023, 08:09 PM)mbdude Wrote: 1 thought that crossed my mind was starting jump at top of key , gives more options for screens.
If jump is in the corner in my opinion opposition can put worst perimeter defender on her; if the goal is just to prevent her from getting the ball. Frees up a better defender

I presciently agreed with you ;-)..

(01-15-2023, 05:34 PM)M T Wrote: I have always thought highly of Jump. But if she & the team can't get her open and we are losing the 4-on-4 game, maybe we should change things. Maybe she can bring energy from off the bench. I'd guess one of the problems is that when she is in the corner, one player can guard her. If she spent more time out at the top of the arc, she may get more open shots (to the left, to the right, or stepping back)./

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - M T - 01-16-2023

Jones loves to do her magic right under the basket. She's good at it. IIRC, she used to do plenty of short jumpers but I think she's gotten away from that. Short jumpers don't get the fouls called on opponents.

As noted, teams have started playing off Jones and instead clogging the lane. Since she isn't doing well in games at making 3s, maybe she should again utilize the stop & pop or fade more.

If Stanford can get the opponent to clear out near the basket (which might take both Lepolo and Jones cutting through to pull an opponent with them) I like Brink's drives from the high post.

I've already suggested having Jump spend more time at the top of the arc (and some of it with the ball in her hands). Maybe put Lepolo a little lower and have her initiate cuts (backdoor or otherwise) through the lane.

More of Brink setting a high screen for Jump (with the ball) and then cutting to the basket.

Get Lepolo to take more shots, perhaps temporarily benching her when she passes up a shot she should take.

I'm not averse to Jones bringing the ball up as that's when she surveys the court. But, as she crosses the half court line, two players (Jump, Lepolo) should be crossing or circling through the lane. Scramble the defense and maybe Jones can spot a seam to cut through. But Jones should reduce her attempted highlight passes, and instead pass off to Jump or Lepolo on the perimeter, and then join in the offense movement rather than playing center field waiting for a rebound.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - 81alum - 01-16-2023

(01-16-2023, 01:32 AM)TheFarm07 Wrote: The video of the postgame press conference is not up yet

I've noticed that press conference videos from away games sometimes never go up. What is everyone's source for finding them when they do?

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - Jskass - 01-16-2023

Thinking how this is interesting for us fans and we want to be helpful, yet Tara and staff must find our tendency to comment/suggest at times exhausting and other times very entertaining. Nonetheless, I'm going to be controversial and wonder if we need to do something like move Haley away from guard -- so something like Brink 5 - Jones 4 - Demetre 3 - Jump 2 - Lepolo 1. Feels like having Jones as one of the guards means they are sagging off her anyway as described above so if we leave her at 4 and away from the ball initially then our 1-3 can hit a 3 given that the defense has to guard Jones at the 4 (otherwise she can incur max damage).

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - 81alum - 01-16-2023

(01-16-2023, 06:42 AM)Jskass Wrote: Thinking how this is interesting for us fans and we want to be helpful, yet Tara and staff must find our tendency to comment/suggest at times exhausting and other times very entertaining. Nonetheless, I'm going to be controversial and wonder if we need to do something like move Haley away from guard -- so something like Brink 5 - Jones 4 - Demetre 3 - Jump 2 - Lepolo 1. Feels like having Jones as one of the guards means they are sagging off her anyway as described above so if we leave her at 4 and away from the ball initially then our 1-3 can hit a 3 given that the defense has to guard Jones at the 4 (otherwise she can incur max damage).

That sounds reasonable, in accordance with the other Demetre for Iriafen swaps we've seen and some have advocated for. If Iriafen could hit the jumper from the high post it would open other options. And of course we need to see Demetre hit shots as well as she did early in the season.

A lot of this also has to do with Brink's great early season progress in hitting the three--suddenly vanishing. If she heats up from three point range, her defenders cannot sit in the paint but must come out to guard her, leaving her free to go around them or pass to others like Jones who have room to penetrate. As it stands, we might as well put Brink at the low post and play the triangle, as in Chiney's day.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - Jskass - 01-16-2023

just need to avoid this being the sequel to Chiney and the Chinettes titled Brink and the Brinkettes.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - SkiBum80 - 01-16-2023

(01-15-2023, 10:11 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: ... you have to create, take, and make what the defense gives you.

Absolutely and totally agree.
If the defense clogs the paint and only blankets Jump hovering in the corner, then you have to adjust and take and make the midrange jumpers, or make 3's from other players.
It's about making in game adjustments.
It's the memo MBB Coach Haase never got.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - ljw63 - 01-16-2023

(01-16-2023, 09:10 AM)SkiBum80 Wrote:
(01-15-2023, 10:11 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: ... you have to create, take, and make what the defense gives you.
Absolutely and totally agree.
If the defense clogs the paint and only blankets Jump hovering in the corner, then you have to adjust and take and make the midrange jumpers, or make 3's from other players.
It's about making in game adjustments.
It's the memo MBB Coach Haase never got.

I have not seen it mentioned but we have a problem that is not easy to fix. Our four best three point shooters – Jump, Lepolo, Prechtel, and Demetre all shoot set shots, not jump shots. It is very difficult to utilize a screen to shoot a set shot. Further, Jump shoots from her waist. She has a very quick release and is very accurate but her release point appears to be about shoulder height, several inches below six feet. That makes her relatively easy to guard. Lepolo also has a low release point but she only shoots when she is wide open so it doesn't matter. Prechtel seems to shoot from her chest with a release point slightly above her head. Since she is 6'5” she is not easily defended except by someone almost as tall or taller. Demetre starts her shot above her head and seems to have a very high release point, well above her 6'3” height so she can also get off her shot fairly easily. Brink's shot is a lot like Prechtel's – hard to defend. From what I can tell, we only have three or four jump shooters – Bosgana, Emma, and Harriel and perhaps Nivar. Bosgana probably has the highest release point of any since she is tall, actually jumps, and extends before releasing.

Tara seems to have a short fuse on all of these jump shooting players. If they miss their first shot they are probably soon out pf the game. If they make their first shot they may get one or two more chances and if they miss those they are out. That puts a lot of pressure on these shooters. I would guess they would all have better 3 point averages if they knew they would not get pulled for an early miss. Tara seems to have no restriction at all on Jump, and is a little more tolerable with Prechtel and Demetre because both have had some success. Brink and Jones are special cases. Tara wants them in the game and while she probably hates their 3 point attempts, she will not bench them for misses.

It is probably worth noting that most of the shooter who really hurt us are jump shooters and they often rely on screens to get their shot.

So, what does this imply for playing time? I would like to see a lineup with Brink, Prechtel and Demetre on the front line and Jones and Lepolo in the backcourt. Until Jump can find a way of getting off her shot much more frequently than she has lately, I would sit her more. I would like to see the jump shooters on the floor a little more and give them more than 1-2 minutes. Don't yank them if they miss. I would even risk losing another game or two if we can develop one of the jump shooters into a constant threat.

I am also in the camp of more mid range shots. Jones, Brink, Iriafen, and Demetre have all shown they can hit these shots although rarely take them, probably because Tara discourages them. Several of the others might be good at these shots as well.

A comment on Betts. She has a lot to learn but she has great hands and great height, two things you cannot coach. She will get better and better. One thing I would like to see is when she gets the ball and two or more players maul her, she needs to try and get off a shot. Refs will much more likely call a foul when you are shooting than when you are holding the ball.

We still need Brink near the basket and Jones doing her penetrating but we cannot be reliant on one three point shooter who cannot get her shot as we are now.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - BostonCard - 01-16-2023

(01-16-2023, 06:42 AM)Jskass Wrote: Thinking how this is interesting for us fans and we want to be helpful, yet Tara and staff must find our tendency to comment/suggest at times exhausting and other times very entertaining. Nonetheless, I'm going to be controversial and wonder if we need to do something like move Haley away from guard -- so something like Brink 5 - Jones 4 - Demetre 3 - Jump 2 - Lepolo 1. Feels like having Jones as one of the guards means they are sagging off her anyway as described above so if we leave her at 4 and away from the ball initially then our 1-3 can hit a 3 given that the defense has to guard Jones at the 4 (otherwise she can incur max damage).

I doubt very much they read this site, though maybe like a moth to a flame…

Mostly this is for our own amusement, so that we can cosplay being a hall of fame coach, without having to face any of the consequences for our “coaching”.

BC

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - chimera - 01-16-2023

I imagine the coaches and staff have way better things to do than read our relatively uninformed fan(atic) guesses about what went wrong and how to fix. It is just fun for us. Losses suck but they do let us play at backseat coaching. Here is a thought - we've wondered if the players were tired because many shots were short and looked rushed. Maybe it wasn't being tired, but rather mental pressure, getting tight, or being mentally tired. It can be hard to be the team chased, the one who gets everyone's best game. Maybe this loss will allow the team to play more freely, not stress.

RE: WBB: How to fix the offense - triangle2 - 01-16-2023

One interesting change for this year's offense is the way that spacing creates opportunities for Brink at the high post to pivot and drive to the basket. This is being achieved in part due to the spacing, i.e. Jump is in the corner being guarded closely, so that defender can't sag and help without leaving her open. Iriafen is posting low on the other side. But as discussed above, teams are moving a second player into the lane to contain Brink and we're seeing lots of sagging from defenders guarding Jones, or Lepolo.

One way to deal with the sagging is to initiate with some 1-4 sets with everyone fairly high and run some screening and motion off of that. Jump can move and cut and force the defender to chase her. Brink and Iriafen can run some high-low. Seems pretty clear that other teams have just watched too much tape of Jump scorching people from the corner, so the word is out on that setup. Ironically, some of the things that seem like potential solutions are things Coach Tara has implemented in past versions of the offense, like some Princeton or triangle. Anyway, it will be fun to see how the coaches tweek things.

Remember in the tournament last year, at the end of the quarter, Stanford ran the elevator and there was an assistant coach on the other team yelling "elevator elevator!!" well before the play was even starting. So, the team ran the elevator anyway and one of the elevator posts slipped and scored. I think about this play a lot. Coach Tara doesn't really hide what she runs; she wants to execute it so that the well practiced offense defeats the defensive scheme. But sometimes it doesn't hurt to disguise the plan a little...