The CardBoard
What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - Printable Version

+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? (/thread-25380.html)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6

What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - StanUSwagU - 01-03-2025

[2025Jan03]: Now with NotreDame University (a smaller enrollment, Top 20 Private Academic Institution) ....defeating SEC Georgia in the CFP to get to the 'Final 4' in College Football, ...I ask the following question:


What can Stanford University learn from NotreDame University, regarding creating an environment to foster & support a 'Top20 Football Program', or a football program that can annually be an 8-4 type program ?


Hint: The wrong answer is 'Nothing'.

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - PAsportsfan - 01-03-2025

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/43266364/notre-dame-buoyed-transfers-knocks-georgia-cfp

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - Spiny_Norman - 01-03-2025

I'm very impressed by the ND defensive coaches. Georgia's OL outweighed the ND DL by 50 pounds a man. Yet ND's DL and LBs controlled the line of scrimmage. The LBs and DBs play with discipline and speed. Kudos to Coach Marcus Freeman and the staff that he has assembled. So lesson #1 for Stanford - hire the right guy as head coach. 

ND's success this year follows a season in which 19 players from last year transferred out. 7 starters from last year were drafted and 4 more signed as UFAs. 9 scholarship players transferred in along with 6 walk-on transfers. This looks like a team that mostly has been built via recruiting with selective (and successful) transfers to fill needs.

In other words, Notre Dame is executing successfully the model that Troy Taylor has said he wants for Stanford. But ND has just been much more successful. Why? I would start with better coaching and more talent. In the last 3 recruiting classes (2022, 2023 and 2024), Notre Dame has signed 48 players with 4 or 5 stars per 247. Stanford has signed 12.

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - CowboyIndian - 01-03-2025

(01-03-2025, 10:41 AM)Spiny_Norman Wrote:  I'm very impressed by the ND defensive coaches. Georgia's OL outweighed the ND DL by 50 pounds a man. Yet ND's DL and LBs controlled the line of scrimmage. The LBs and DBs play with discipline and speed. Kudos to Coach Marcus Freeman and the staff that he has assembled. So lesson #1 for Stanford - hire the right guy as head coach. 

ND's success this year follows a season in which 19 players from last year transferred out. 7 starters from last year were drafted and 4 more signed as UFAs. 9 scholarship players transferred in along with 6 walk-on transfers. This looks like a team that mostly has been built via recruiting with selective (and successful) transfers to fill needs.

In other words, Notre Dame is executing successfully the model that Troy Taylor has said he wants for Stanford. But ND has just been much more successful. Why? I would start with better coaching and more talent. In the last 3 recruiting classes (2022, 2023 and 2024), Notre Dame has signed 48 players with 4 or 5 stars per 247. Stanford has signed 12.

I would compare ND's collective(s) to Stanford's and start there.

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - martyup - 01-03-2025

Maybe we should decide on an actual mascot.

[Image: old-man-duh-reaction-djtl3dkjjfjdr2rt.gif]

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - StanUSwagU - 01-03-2025

(01-03-2025, 03:27 PM)CowboyIndian Wrote:  
(01-03-2025, 10:41 AM)Spiny_Norman Wrote:  I'm very impressed by the ND defensive coaches. Georgia's OL outweighed the ND DL by 50 pounds a man. Yet ND's DL and LBs controlled the line of scrimmage. The LBs and DBs play with discipline and speed. Kudos to Coach Marcus Freeman and the staff that he has assembled. So lesson #1 for Stanford - hire the right guy as head coach. 

ND's success this year follows a season in which 19 players from last year transferred out. 7 starters from last year were drafted and 4 more signed as UFAs. 9 scholarship players transferred in along with 6 walk-on transfers. This looks like a team that mostly has been built via recruiting with selective (and successful) transfers to fill needs.

In other words, Notre Dame is executing successfully the model that Troy Taylor has said he wants for Stanford. But ND has just been much more successful. Why? I would start with better coaching and more talent. In the last 3 recruiting classes (2022, 2023 and 2024), Notre Dame has signed 48 players with 4 or 5 stars per 247. Stanford has signed 12.

I would compare ND's collective(s) to Stanford's and start there.


Spiny_Norman, CowboyIndian,

Astute observations from both of you.

I would add that ND has been 'proactive & passionate' about adapting to the new landscape of CollegeFootball where we have been 'disappointingly passive & reactionary' and waited for things to spiral to the bottom, before taking actions & making changes.
(01-03-2025, 03:46 PM)martyup Wrote:  Maybe we should decide on an actual mascot.

[Image: old-man-duh-reaction-djtl3dkjjfjdr2rt.gif]

Hello Martyup,

I know you are mostly saying this in jest, but I would co-sign on that.

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - BostonCard - 01-03-2025

There is an element of post hoc ergo propter hoc to all of this.  I mean, USC also invested a crap ton in NIL, recruited well, and picked a top, proven coach, for which it was rewarded with a losing Big Ten record and an overall pretty mediocre outcome (though one we'd be thrilled with, I'm sure).

Every year, you can pick a handful of programs and say "look, we should imitate them", without recognizing that pretty much every D1 program is trying to do what the successful ones are doing, just not as effectively.

At the end of the day, I don't think we should do "whatever it takes", and even if this group, collectively decides that we do in fact want to do whatever it takes, I don't think it is in our institutional DNA to do so.  Stanford's identity is not wrapped up in being a successful Tier 1 football program the way Notre Dame's is.  Even making the case that Stanford's identity is elite academics and athletics is probably a stretch.

One other quick comment I have is that there is a tendency towards what I call "Green Lantern thinking" (a reference to the "Green Lantern Theory of the Presidency", a theory described here (https://www.vox.com/2014/5/20/5732208/the-green-lantern-theory-of-the-presidency-explained, which is that “the belief that the president can achieve any political or policy objective if only he tries hard enough or uses the right tactics.")  I think we see a similar idea amongst sports fans, especially college sports fans, which is that success at school x can be achieved if the administration "tries hard enough or uses the right tactics".  The problem is that there are 134 FBS football schools, and the fan bases of all of them think the exact same thing.  Yet only 12 (<10% make the CFB playoff), and only 1 (0.7%) can win a championship every year.  When Calfan says "Cal could be a perennial football powerhouse if only the administration tried hard enough or usedt he right tactics, we scoff, but Stanford has a lifetime .570 winning percentage, not that much better than Cal's .546.

BC

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - JJJ - 01-03-2025

Thanks to BC, I now know a new Latin phrase! (Yes, I had to look it up. :)

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - BostonCard - 01-03-2025

(01-03-2025, 05:57 PM)JJJ Wrote:  Thanks to BC, I now know a new Latin phrase! (Yes, I had to look it up. :)

If I were less insufferable, I would have just said "correlation is not causation".

BC

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - Goose - 01-03-2025

(01-03-2025, 05:48 PM)BostonCard Wrote:  Even making the case that Stanford's identity is elite academics and athletics is probably a stretch.

BC
Agree. In the "smaller" and "Olympic" sports Stanford has always taken pride in punching way above our weight. This was true even in years where our football team was below .500 and our basketball team was WAY below .500. We took great pride in the fact that every so often we get a Brodie/Plunkett/Elway/Luck (and lots of other guys I haven't mentioned) that makes us "relevant". If these events coincide with a decent defense, we could play with anybody. Not bad for a school where the athletes actually had to do the work was how we looked at it. In no way did we claim we were "elite". We competed like mad, but we didn't expect to win every year. Yes, Stanford has made lots of significant contributions to sport, but we had no illusions that we were Alabama (or Nebraska :-). Our identity did just fine under those circumstances.

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - jacket3ree - 01-03-2025

Stanford doesn't punch above its weight if you measure weight by bullion. The old and new worlds of athletics are all about money and Stanford has more than most. They need to spend it wisely or decide they are going to spend it. I'm sure they are spending it. Spend it more wisely!

These athletic revenue numbers do not match up with what was floated in another thread, but I'm not about to cull through AD prospectuses over the weekend. Many but not all ACC schools balance expenses to revenues. A few show excess revenue, but it is negligible compared to expenses.

By revenue in millions (2022-23 academic year):

Notre Dame........$224
Stanford.............$180
FSU................... $170
Miami.................$160
Louisville............$155
Duke..................$153
Clemson.............$152
North Carolina.....$138
Pittsburgh...........$137
California............$135
Virginia Tech.......$130
Virginia...............$126
NC State.............$121
Boston College....$118
Georgia Tech.......$116
Syracuse.............$114
Wake Forest........$97
SMU...................$86

Endowment is a stronger indication of wealth and potential power. Stanford's $36.5 billion endowment is larger than FSU, Louisville, Clemson, Miami, VA Tech, Syracuse, Wake Forest, NC State, SMU, Cal, Georgia Tech, Boston College, North Carolina, and Pitt combined.

Of course correlation is not causation, but hell yeah, Stanford should be as good as Notre Dame in football and Duke in basketball as often as not. There are no excuses.  I remember when they were as good as Notre Dame and almost as good as Duke - I'm not that old. It is absolutely embarrassing for Stanford to finish 16th in the ACC with their relative resources. Notre Dame is the gold standard although their men's basketball team still sucks as far as I can tell.

A few on other ACC boards fear that Stanford will wake up and start spending some of its immense wealth. 'Watch out if the billionaires get involved. Might as well beat the **** out of them before they do.'

At present, they'll have to overpay players to entice the talent to come to no fun Stanford in front of empty stands and play for no-name coaches. 

Dump Muir. Get a better athletic director. Get better coaches and better players. Profit.

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - threepointer - 01-03-2025

(01-03-2025, 07:39 PM)jacket3ree Wrote:  Dump Muir. Get a better athletic director. Get better coaches and better players. Profit.

This just about sums it up.

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - BostonCard - 01-03-2025

The size of the endowment is irrelevant, since much of it is already spoken for and even if you opened it up, athletics would have to compete with a whole host of other “priorities” for the University.  Yeah, if you look at my wealth, I could buy a Lamborghini. A lot of stakeholders (well, one in specific) would be rather upset if I liquidated my retirement savings to do so.

As for revenues, remember that as part of our move to the ACC, we agreed to receive a 30% share of ACC revenues for the next 7 years so the university is going to be on the hook for more than the $20 or so million that it had been subsidizing the AD for the last couple of years.  Plus, an interesting list; even when you take out Stanford, it is notable that lowest revenue SMU won the ACC regular season, and middle-of-the road Clemson won the ACC championship, while FSU, third on the list, had a year almost as crappy as Stanford.  It’s almost like money can’t buy you a championship, and long-term, there is probably a fair bit of reverse causation (being good brings revenue) or confounding.

It’s fair to lament that we shouldn’t be the worst team in the ACC.  But a long-term .570 winning team is not a top-20 football program; it is a top-50 program which will periodically be good to very good and sometimes suck.  Just as you remember being as good as Notre Dame (in football) and almost as good as Duke (in basketball), I’m sure you can also remember being as bad as Davis in football and having a basketball coach leave Stanford for Iowa claiming that it was impossible to win here (and kind of demonstrate it by taking BC to two NCAA tournament bids in three years, including an Elite Eight, before Stanford, and Iowa to the tournament 9 times in 13 years after Stanford, and yet never finishing with a winning conference record at Stanford).

BC

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - paloalto - 01-03-2025

Yes, the donations to the endowment are almost entirely dedicated to specific causes.  There are virtually no big donors who say "spend it however you want".  They donate for their own personal reasons and the university is contractually obligated to follow their directive.

Here is perhaps a little irony.  I recall Charlie Weis saying Stanford is the gold standard for the combination of academics and athletics.  The implication was Notre Dame could learn from Stanford how to combine the two.  Of course, it's a completely different world now for college athletics.

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - dabigv13 - 01-03-2025

BC, buy the Lamborghini. It won't appreciate as much as your 401k, but it will be a lot more fun. You only live once.

I vote for a Countach.

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - Mick - 01-03-2025

(01-03-2025, 08:14 PM)threepointer Wrote:  
(01-03-2025, 07:39 PM)jacket3ree Wrote:  Dump Muir. Get a better athletic director. Get better coaches and better players. Profit.

This just about sums it up.

When you say it like that, it sounds easy...

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - 82lsju - 01-04-2025

(01-03-2025, 11:00 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:  BC, buy the Lamborghini. It won't appreciate as much as your 401k, but it will be a lot more fun. You only live once.

I vote for a Countach.

not the best car to drive in reverse....for similar or less money (depending on the year and model) I'd get a McClaren or if you want to go old school a Ferrari Dino (one of the most beautiful cars ever made).  You can see Dinos on auction at Bring a Trailer, none up for sale currently

https://bringatrailer.com/ferrari/dino/

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - fullmetal - 01-04-2025

If you listen to some people here, you should instead donate to Lifetime Cardinal rather than buy the Lambo.  I think maybe that's the issue, a lot of Stanford fans want to do things with their money other than throw it at recruits.  Doesn't make for good football in this age.

I don't know why USC, with all the right ingredients, hasn't been as successful as Notre Shame.  But I don't think that's proof that talent+money+coaching aren't necessary!

Agreed with all the endowment blathering: endowments are by definition not to be touched and to only fund specific purposes.  And let's not keep confusing the general university endowment with any endowments specific to the athletic department, much less specific teams.

People will donate to coaches and teams in whom they believe.  Mack Brown got by on that for a while.  I'm not sure Stanford pulls in a ton of donations in this current state of non-winning.  A successful AD can also curry favor with boosters and rack up the donations, but I don't see a lot of new donors being cultivated in that way right now (hope I'm wrong).  Money tends to follow wins.

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - 82lsju - 01-05-2025

(01-04-2025, 11:14 PM)fullmetal Wrote:  People will donate to coaches and teams in whom they believe.  Mack Brown got by on that for a while.  I'm not sure Stanford pulls in a ton of donations in this current state of non-winning.  A successful AD can also curry favor with boosters and rack up the donations, but I don't see a lot of new donors being cultivated in that way right now (hope I'm wrong).  Money tends to follow wins.

looking at the last two AD annual reports they show

2022-23 $14.2m in Buck/Cardinal gifts ($9.8m) + expendable gifts ($4.4m)
2023-23 $20.1m in Expendable Gifts including Buck/Cardinal Club 14% - I'm assuming 14% of total revenue of $143.7

I for one am surprised at the almost 50% Y/Y increase and wonder if there is either some funny accounting, new definitions of what's in these buckets  and/or large one-time gifts in 2023-24

RE: What can Stanford learn from NotreDame regarding creating a Top20 Football Program ? - BostonCard - 01-05-2025

(01-04-2025, 11:14 PM)fullmetal Wrote:  If you listen to some people here, you should instead donate to Lifetime Cardinal rather than buy the Lambo.  I think maybe that's the issue, a lot of Stanford fans want to do things with their money other than throw it at recruits.  Doesn't make for good football in this age.

As far as I can tell, most top NIL collectives pay out in the $30 million/year range (https://www.on3.com/nil/news/on3s-top-15-nil-collectives-in-college-sports/).  So, if someone wanted to light their own money on fire in order to improve our football team’s fortunes, go for it.

Asking for other people’s money to be spent is easy.

BC