The CardBoard
Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - Printable Version

+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming (/thread-3109.html)


Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - M T - 03-17-2012

I surmise that there aren't too many here that are interested in Swimming & Diving.  That's a shame because Stanford has great athletes in these sports.  You will hear their names at the Olympics.  One of the amazing streaks to me is that the Stanford men have won the conference meet for 31 years straight! 

But, this weekend, it is the Women's NCAA Championship meet.  Espn3.com will carry tonight's finals at 4:45PM PDT.  Stanford's 200 Free Relay won earlier in the meet.  Right now, Stanford is in 5th place at 222 points, just 4 points out of 3rd.  Tonight's finals include these Stanford swimmers: 

Madeline Dirado qualified 7th in the 200 Back.

Andrea Murez qualified 6th and Madeline Schaefer qualified 8th in the 100 Free, while
Elizabeth Webb and Samantha Woodward are in the B-Finals (9th-16th) of the 100 Free.

Stanford A team qualified 2nd in the 4x100 Free Relay.  Our seed time was the best, so it will be an interesting race to end the meet.  There were 3 teams with seed times between 3:12 and 3:13, and a fourth team got under 3:13 in the prelims.  (Stanford clearly held back in the prelims)

I'll also be interested to see Caitlin Leverenz (of UC East Bay) go for Rebecca Soni's American record.  She swam beautifully at the dual meet here (which Stanford won, by the way).


Re: Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - M T - 03-17-2012

Madeline Dirado finished 2nd in the 200 Back.

Andrea Murez finished 7th and Madeline Schaefer finished 8th in the 100 Free, while
Elizabeth Webb and Samantha Woodward finished 9th and 10th in the 100 Free.

Stanford A team set an American record while winning the 4x100 Free relay: Andrea Murez, Madeline Schaefer, Elizabeth Webb, Samantha Woodward.

Overall, the team finished fourth.


Re: Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - fullmetal - 03-18-2012

kal took the title, followed by UGA, U$C, and then Stanford.  Oof.  Well, at least it wasn't U$C or UCLA taking the title...

To summarize kal's major point advantages by event (Stanford won major point advantages in other events):
Out of 21 total events, kal had significant (arbitrarily defined as >= +10 pts) advantages over Stanford in nine of them, nearly half, for a total of +141 pts from those nine events.  kal's total margin over Stanford was +95.5 pts. 

It's late, and I should look at this later, but it seemed that kal won with a good deal of upperclass talent, and Stanford had a few underclass youngsters representing in the events where they didn't qualify for the finals.  Just an impression from what I remember--I don't know the breakdown of the relay teams though, and relay team points are definitely big money.

Meet results linked here: http://results.teamunify.com/nsss/results/NCAA/2012Women/

(I used to swim competitively...until jr high, when everyone else hit their growth spurt ahead of me.)

Re: Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - M T - 03-18-2012

For those that don't know, one team can be optimized to win dual meets, or to win conference meets, or to win nationals.  Stanford beat K.al in the dual meet.  K.al barely squeaked out the conference win.  But K.al had nationals wrapped up before the final event.

There were some impressive swims in the meet.  Janet Evans 30 year old record in the 1650 was finally broken in a very close race.  There were American and NCAA records broken (including Stanford's 400 FR getting an American record).  As Rowdy Gaines described, one swimmer missed a record I didn't expect to fall by a half a fingernail (0.01 seconds).

Men's Nationals is next weekend.


Re: Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - unclechuck - 03-18-2012

MT - with several records broken, is it your impression that the athletes have finally caught up to the speedsuit's artificial depression of swimming records?

Other question: In winning NCAA swimming championships it's really about having enough super-elite athletes to place in multiple finals and to assemble top 3 relays. The every day elite swimmers will win you dual meets and score in conference championships, but they drop out in the NCAAs. Not quite as pronounced as track& field as scoring is taken twice as deep, put pretty much the same concept.

It appears Cal has been kicking our butts @ nationals the last couple of years in men and women. Have they been having a string of exceptional recruiting success (like our O-line for 2012) or are they developing elites into super-elites with greater success?

Stanford swim coaching has been cutting edge for many years so I'd be surprised if that's been the difference. Is Cal just going through a cyclical happy time or does the Farm recruiting need a shot in the arm?

Swim suit technology manufactured controversy - M T - 03-18-2012

As for the reduced-drag suits, my opinion is that the outcry was a desperation move by Speedo when their market was about moving to companies with better technology. 

In the early days of these suits (2000 to 2004), I remember Michael Phelps touting how great the new technology was, when Speedo (his employer) was in the lead of those suits.  But, as the patents were developed elsewhere and you started seeing the top swimmers using other brands that were more effective, Phelps changed his tune.  It isn't funny to me that the current suit rules for men match exactly what Phelps prefers (jammies).  If Phelps had been consistently a swimsuit purist, I wouldn't be so cynical about his later position, after Speedo was no longer the best swim suit.

As a (former) Masters swimmer, I believe the reduced-drag suits are more effective for those of us whose body fat isn't incredibly low.  The suits hold in skin that is not as tight as it once was.

Quote:In 1992, the first bodysuit was introduced by Speedo and was labeled the S2000. During the Barcelona Olympics, 53 percent of all swimming medals were won by swimmers wearing the S2000. The S2000 offered 15 percent less drag than conventional swimwear fabrics. In 1996, Speedo launched Aquablade, which had an 8 percent lower surface resistance than the S2000. During the Atlanta Olympics, 77 percent of all swimming medals were won by swimmers wearing the Speedo Aquablade

In 2000, Arena created the Powerskin bodysuit, which is 30 percent lighter, and has a water friction coefficient of almost zero and 15 percent less water absorption compared to other polyamide-elastane racing suits. During summer 2003, Adidas introduced the new JetConcept bodysuit at the FINA World Swimming Championships in Barcelona. The new Jetconcept was composed of small integrated riblets, thus reducing drag in the water. Ian Thorpe won two gold medals, one silver medal and one bronze medal while wearing the newer suit in 2004. Speedo also introduced its new suit the Fastskin FSII in 2003. Tests showed the suit reduced passive drag by up to 4 percent. Michael Phelps won eight medals at the 2004 Olympics in Athens while wearing the fastskin FSII suit.

In 2007, Speedo introduced Fastskin FS-PRO bodysuit. Twenty-one world records were broken within six months by swimmers wearing this fast and lightweight suit. Speedo launched the LZR Racer in 2008; it was considered the most technically advanced suit in the world. At the 2008 Beijing Olympics, 92 percent of all of the medals won were by swimmers wearing this suit. Arena's Powerskin R-Evolution came out in 2008, with its two distinguishing features, its unique woven fabric and breakthrough design and construction. It was made with half the amount of yarn, offering greater density, thus a 50 percent improvement in muscle compression. It had no stitches because it was made from a single piece of fabric, resulting in 2 percent reduction in drag. Also in 2008, TYR presented its new suit called the Tracer Rise. During its development, swimmers demonstrated up to a 4 percent performance improvement when swimming in Tracer Rapid Boundary Technology. In 2009, Arena launched a multilayer full body suit called Powerskin X-Glide. It was made with a coating that trapped air that increased buoyancy and reduced drag even better than older models. Michael Biedermann wore it at the 2009 world swimming championship in Rome, beating Michael Phelps in the 200-meter freestyle.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/457461-history-of-swimming-body-suits/#ixzz1pUxv3igU

Quote:[At the World Championships in 2009] Cavic and others competed in a new Italian swim suit called Polyurethane [Tyson: Jaked was the manufacturer], while Phelps was forced to compete in the older version made by Speedos, his official sponsor. ...
He knew Phelps was contracted to Speedos and could not wear any other suit, except one made by Speedos, so he had to wear their 2008 version to compete in this meet in Rome. Phelps and others protested the use of the suits...
http://sportales.com/swimming/michael-phelps-and-the-issue-of-the-polyurethane-swim-suit-at-the-world-championship/#ixzz1pUzXbIwH

So, as long as Speedo had a leading suit, technology was a great thing for swimming.  Once patents were filed for better technology (Jaked's European patent, filed 12/30/2008: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP2204101.html ), Speedo's market was likely lost.  I believe they were the instigators of the outcry against technology throughout 2009, leading to the FINA vote for the ban of most of the new technology later in that year.

It is one thing about the material of the swimsuit, but you might ask yourself, why ban the body coverage of the suits?  From the Jaked patent:  [suit] "comprises a round-neck portion suitable for enveloping at least part of the neck and a portion of sleeves (5) suitable for substantially covering exclusively the shoulders of said swimmer."  By banning full body suits, they banned suits that fit the Jaked patent.  (Compare this to the patents filed 6 months earlier by Speedo:
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220080141430%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20080141430&RS=DN/20080141430
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220080141431%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20080141431&RS=DN/20080141431 )

I do not consider myself an expert on this.  Read and decide for yourself. I am not a lawyer and have no special knowledge about patents.  The above statements describe my perhaps-flawed understanding of the situation.  These do not necessarily reflect the opinion of my employer, this website, Stanford University, FINA, USMS, or anyone else.


Re: Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - M T - 03-18-2012

Now, I'll step down from my soapbox and try to answer your questions.

The question about the "speedsuit's artificial depression of swimming records" depends upon which swim suit technology one wants to consider as the problem.  I think clearly swimming is ahead of 2000 and probably 2004.  Although we're now starting to see world, etc. records since the 2010 change in swim suit rules, swimmers aren't ahead of 2009, except in a few situations.

Yes, for swimming, it is having enough super-elite athletes to score a lot of points at nationals.  Stanford won 2 of 5 relays, but couldn't compete for the overall championship.  Relays are not enough, but often if you win the relays, you pile up points in individual events as well.  (So the medley relay is more telling -- the swimmers in that will likely do well in 8 events, not just 3)

I have to say that I'm not familiar enough with the recruiting of Stanford and that other team to state why Stanford has won fewer championships in recent years.  I have noticed that the school-that-shall-not-be-named has a number of foreign athletes in many of its programs (4 in W swim, 5 in M swim, 1 in WBB, 3 in MBB, etc.).  In the best years of Stanford women's swimming, Stanford had a coach that had multiple national championships in his previous school and was a perennial Olympic coach.  He continued that tradition at Stanford.  He clearly had an edge at recruiting, or perhaps, choosing amongst those asking to swim for him.  That was essentially a unique situation. 


Note to unclechuck... - 71Bear - 03-18-2012

The University of California will continue to be a national power in women's swimming as long as Teri McKeever is the coach.  She has now won three national titles in the last four years and is experiencing tremendous success recruiting stellar swimmers.

And, as a bonus, if you are a fan of US Swimming, McKeever will be the head coach of the US women's swim team this summer at the London Olympics....



Re: Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - unclechuck - 03-19-2012

MT - thanks for the excellent speed suit tutorial. I had some vague awareness of the issues but that was really quite informative; cheers.

Yes, the untimely death of Richard Quick was quite a loss to the Stanford swimming community. His composite coaching skills in women's swimming were exceptional. While we've been able to remain a national top10 - top 5 program since his death, a championship has proved elusive.

Alas, 71Bear's post is spot on: Teri McKeever's recent run has indeed been impressive. From my own limited perspective I've noted that several recent San Diego Section swimmers of the year have headed up to the East Bay, including the best male HS swimmer down here this year; frustrating.

As for the foreign imports, yes that may be part of the issue. IIRC back in the 70s the bares had a big run of Nordic ringers, particularly sprinters for the men's team. But, we've had some success cherry picking South Africans over the last decade as well so I can't get too worked up over that.

Just wondering, if it's a recruiting issue, are we / should we be applying the same, very pro-active recruiting strategies that the football team is using to such success? Stanford is fortunate that they are still able to fully fund men's swimming as well as women's, so that should not be an issue. How do we get to that final step?

As a fan of US Swimming and Stanford swimming I have mixed feelings about Coach McKeever being the Olympic women's coach: happy, because she clearly knows what she's doing, but glum because she'll have some extra access to those couple of super-elite HS swimmers that always make the team.

And to the clown who negged 71Bear's post, thanks for providing another compelling example of why the negative vote function should be disabled. Why don't you take your talents to a stoning or a flash mob and leave the discourse to the grown ups.

Re: Note to unclechuck... - Roberton3 - 03-19-2012

(03-18-2012, 07:59 PM)71Bear link Wrote:The University of California will continue to be a national power in women's swimming as long as Teri McKeever is the coach.  She has now won three national titles in the last four years and is experiencing tremendous success recruiting stellar swimmers.

And, as a bonus, if you are a fan of US Swimming, McKeever will be the head coach of the US women's swim team this summer at the London Olympics....

If McKeever is that good, then it seems like Stanford should hire her away from Cal.  Given the current athletics budget problems there, it seems like it wouldn't be hard to offer her a big raise to move across the Bay.

Re: Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - unclechuck - 03-19-2012

R3 - I believe she's an alumnus & former bare swimmer.

And no relation to Tosh.

But you bring up a fair and interesting point. Bowlsby should give UW a call.

Re: Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - yvonne - 03-19-2012

I don't know this for sure, but I think she's an alumna.

just sayin'

Re: Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - unclechuck - 03-20-2012

My bad Yvonne; thanks.

Was so giddy about gigging the bares about Lupoi that I went with a first guess.

Cue 12 reps of FightOn - Ferris_Bueller - 03-20-2012

(03-19-2012, 10:14 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:I don't know this for sure, but I think she's an alumna.

just sayin'

Source: http://www.calbears.com/sports/w-swim/mtt/mckeever_teri00.html

With spelling gotcha triggers left intact for your reading convenience..

Quote:Prior to making her mark on Cal women's swimming, McKeever had strong ties to the Pac-10 Conference, both as an athlete and as a coach. A former USC All-American herself, she competed in the NCAA Championships meet all four years while at USC and helped the Trojans to four consecutive NCAA top-10 finishes. She earned All-America honors in both 1980 and 1981. As a senior in 1983, McKeever was named USC's Outstanding Student-Athlete. She worked as an assistant coach at USC from 1984-87, helping develop several All-Americans.

The Southern California product graduated from USC in 1983 with a B.S. in education with two teaching credentials (multiple subject, secondary life science) and also earned a masters degree in athletic administration in 1987. McKeever's father, Mike, was an All-American lineman for the Trojans' football team in 1959. McKeever comes from a family of 10 children (she is the oldest), all with varied athletic backgrounds. Sisters Kristi and Kelli Gannon were members of the U.S. national field hockey team.


Re: Going for the Gold tonight - Women's swimming - unclechuck - 03-20-2012

What ho Lurck42; I'm wrong again. Thanks for setting the record straight. Gig dutifully withdrawn; rights to future Tosh related abuse still retained.

Rough day for me on the boards. I'm writing like I work for network TV. I'll try to do better.