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HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - washingtonismoney - 03-19-2012

Too many Mountaineer turnovers to really make an honest evaluation, but THIS JUST IN: Amber Orrange is really good. West Virginia has taken to guarding Orrange tightly on every inbounds to an extent you rarely see. Orrange is nevertheless playing quite well, as well as the rest of the team aside from a slight lull at the end.

Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - 81alum - 03-19-2012

Missy Barlow IS referee and as usual when she is involved, they messed up a call.  Joslyn was fouled and should have had a one-and-one, but they played on.  When they discovered their error, they huddled for five minutes while the announcers wondered what was going on.  Finally they decided that it was not a correctable error--so Joslyn lost the opportunity to take free throws.

Amber is outstanding.  But both the Ogwumikes have two fouls.  I hope we can stay "hot" in the second half--but we are shooting 53.8% and that might not be sustainable. A lot of our baskets were on back door cuts that West Virginia is finally wising up to.  What an amazing scouting report that Tara came up with to see their vulnerability to the back door.

Toni is having a rough shooting night, 2-10 so far, balanced by Amber at 5-8.  Joslyn's two three pointers helps.

Defensively we are stopping their high-low game pretty well, but they are getting a fair number of close in jumpers.

Let's hope we can sustain our defense and shooting at this rate for another half!



Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - 76lsjumb - 03-19-2012

Ironically, right before the snafu that cost us two free throws and clearly slowed our moemntum, I thought Missy made two calls in our favor that could have gone against us.  At that point i was looking around for cats and dogs laying down together and other signs of the apocalypse, but then they went into their extended screw-up, so maybe the end of the world isn't here quite yet.

And, of course, there's still 20 minutes for Missy et al. to make our heads explode...

Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - treefan - 03-19-2012

Mountaineers are flying all over our back, but no calls.

Missy calling ticky tack, which is in our favor for the most part. Her call on their made basket was correct.

The black chick ref is AWFUL

Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - treefan - 03-19-2012

Missy has called two ticky tack fouls on Chiney!

We need this clock to run and run!

Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - pefloresjr - 03-19-2012

(03-19-2012, 05:14 PM)81alum link Wrote:Missy Barlow IS referee and as usual when she is involved, they messed up a call.  Joslyn was fouled and should have had a one-and-one, but they played on.  When they discovered their error, they huddled for five minutes while the announcers wondered what was going on.  Finally they decided that it was not a correctable error--so Joslyn lost the opportunity to take free throws.

It looked to me like the foul happened as the shot was made so play did not really continue.  They could have disallowed the shot or allowed it and still called the foul after the shot but I'm no expert on the rules. 

The funny part of the long delay was when the WVU fans started chanting "Go Mountaineers" the Stanford fans eventually turned it to a "Go Stanford" cheer.  It all ended with Staford fans chanting "Viva Estanfor!"  I love it.

Cheers,
Pete F.

Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - Viking_Guy - 03-19-2012

A couple of quick thoughts:

(1) Chiney and Nneka can't give away fouls as they did late in the first half.  While they were a bit ticky tack (and one was called by Missy from about 40ft, to balance out an equally distant call she made against WVU), they still took our two best players off the court for extended minutes.  It didn't matter in this game, but we can't afford to do that going forward.

(2) The driving against the ball pressure was just what the doctor ordered; the high pick and roll and the backdoor cuts also were wonderful in making the Mountaineers pay for overpressing on the perimeter.  I think some future opponents just had their defensive strategies rewritten.

(3) That said, we haven't seen much zone.  I don't think Dawn Staley and SoCarolina will do so, but if the Cardinal does meet Duke, you can bet on it.  Hopefully Jos stays hot, and Toni finds her shot again.

(4) Amber was amazing.  There was such a distinct slow-down of the offensive execution with her on the bench for her rare breaks.  Again, this game we could afford it.  Going forward, not as much, I don't think.  Especially given the possibility/probability of some pressing from the Gamecocks.

VG


Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - Yellowlab - 03-19-2012

(03-19-2012, 06:25 PM)garvin link Wrote:Not to sound like a broken record, though I know I do, but what are all the starters doing in the game with a 20-point lead and two minutes to go?

We were asking the same question.  One of us always ends the discussion by saying "She is in the Hall of Fame."  But, still.

Good win.  Great job by Amber.  It was the Orrange Bowl!

Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - Viking_Guy - 03-19-2012

Glenn--

I too was asking that question.  But I think she was disappointed with the bench's play at the end of the Hampton game.  Plus, there's not that much of a healthy bench right now.  Boothe played a lot of minutes, and Erica hasn't had a lot of time this year.  So not many forwards.  Greenfield got some minutes, but Tara really got in her grill after the delay when they should've called the foul on the three-point shot; maybe Taylor lost her mark in the corner?

Other than that, the only bench players healthy who didn't play was Grace, though Sara and Erica only got in the last minute.  I actually would've liked to have seen some Bonnie minutes, if she's going to be able to shoot with the broken finger on her offhand, but another week of healing can't hurt.  I also think Tara is always wary of giving the other team any momentum until they're going to their own bench and sitting the starters (she started subbing when WVa sat Bussie, I think).

Speaking as someone who was arguing about this back in 1997 and 98, when we were routinely blowing teams out by 30+ but would yank our freshmen at the first sign of trouble (I think it really hurt Carolyn Moos' development, for example), it's continued to be frustrating.  I would've liked to have seen some more minutes for Payne and James.  But I don't think the SoCar game will give us that chance; I would've much rather played Purdue.

And btw, that "power conference", the B1G 10(?), is now 2-6 in the tourney, with Purdue looking rather bad at home and Penn State looking at a tough matchup at LSU in the second round.

VG


VG


Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - M T - 03-19-2012

Interesting coincidence... The winners of the 4 games played today starting about 4 PM PDT all scored 72 points.

I was not satisfied with the 2nd half tonight.  I don't think Stanford just dangled a bait of 19 points out in front of them just to make them suffer.  I think we couldn't pull away, and wound up tied.  I remember that at 7 minutes into the second half, it was just 8-6 our favor. Were we equally matched except for  a 20-point scouting bonus that we spent in the first half?    Granted, we obviously slowed it down, and I was glad to see us holding the ball, and hence the lead.  But it seemed the O sisters were out of the offense.

Congrats to the team for just 6 TO against a defensive team!    (If you saw the UConn score, you may be surprised to find out they had 16 turnovers to KSU's 18)  Amber:  5 assists / 0 turnovers
But WVU got 35% of their offensive rebound chances.  We got just 26%.
Our two-point shot % dropped from 55% to 40% in the second.  Our three-point shot % went from 50% to 0%.  (I'll forgive Nneka for taking the 3ptrs.  I'm sure that's part of the Griner plan.)
WVU only had 13 turnovers, but we got 19 points off them.



Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - 76lsjumb - 03-19-2012

(03-19-2012, 05:57 PM)pefloresjr link Wrote:[quote author=81alum link=topic=5721.msg42030#msg42030 date=1332202463]
Missy Barlow IS referee and as usual when she is involved, they messed up a call.  Joslyn was fouled and should have had a one-and-one, but they played on.  When they discovered their error, they huddled for five minutes while the announcers wondered what was going on.  Finally they decided that it was not a correctable error--so Joslyn lost the opportunity to take free throws.

It looked to me like the foul happened as the shot was made so play did not really continue.  They could have disallowed the shot or allowed it and still called the foul after the shot but I'm no expert on the rules. 

The funny part of the long delay was when the WVU fans started chanting "Go Mountaineers" the Stanford fans eventually turned it to a "Go Stanford" cheer.  It all ended with Staford fans chanting "Viva Estanfor!"  I love it.

Cheers,
Pete F.
[/quote]

Not that it makes any difference at all, and, to be fair to Missy, I don't think she was the ref who started the whole thing, but, after looking at Gametracker, I don't think the explanation given by the announcers was right.  Also, I don't think it had anything to do with the Joslyn take-down, since it does not appear [at least from Gametracker] that any foul was called on that play. 

It appears to me that the ref who stopped play had a "brain freeze" moment where she thought that we should have been in double bonus on the prior free throws, where we [Amber?] missed the first, WVU got the rebound, and then came down and ultimately got the 3.  Presumably, she was concerned that we should have gotten the second free throw even though we missed the first, if, in fact, we were already in double bonus.  However, looking at the play-by-play on Gametracker, I don't think we WERE in double bonus yet -- I think that happened on the next foul.  Thus, although it took them forever to figure it out, I don't think they actually denied us anything after all [except momentum with which to end the half].

But, again, it fortunately turned out to be meaningless.  On to Fresno, where some more Orrange Crush would be great!  ;D

Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - 81alum - 03-19-2012

A superb first half.  I too was not that happy with the second half, but I think our strategy was significantly altered by our lead.  It seemed to me that the team must have been instructed in the second half not to start plays until the shot clock was at least half way down.  We wanted to slow the pace and eat as much clock as possible.  That took away a lot of opportunities and West Virginia caught on--defending well at the end of the shot clock and causing some bad shots and shot clock violations. 

So our offense did seem more stale to me in the second half.  But here is an odd thing:  despite my impressions we scored almost as many points (34 compared with 38) despite having our shooting percentage collapse from 53.8% in the first half to only 32.1% in the second half.  The difference was largely FTs--we scored 7 in the first half to 16 in the second.

What more can we say about Amber?  We are witnessing the development of a star.  Norfolk was Amber's national debutante ball.  8-14 shots and 6-7 FTs!  5 assists to 0 (zero!) turnovers.  She was the main reason we had only 6 turnovers against a team famous for steals and defense.    But did anyone notice that Amber led the team in rebounds?  Actually, she was tied with Jos for 7, but still, a point guard with 7 rebounds?

One big advantage for us was that the refs decided to call the game fairly close.  West Virginia exceeded even their very high average 18 fouls per game and picked up 23 tonight.  They wound up with 3 players at 4 fouls each and another at 3.  All those fouls made it difficult for West Virginia to play their normal maul-ball.

Our coaching was brilliant in at least two ways.  First, on defense, we did something that effectively neutralized West Virginia's vaunted high-low game for almost the whole game.  Bussie was only 4-13.  Second, on offense, as others have pointed out, we made them pay dearly for their overly aggressive man-to-man with a string of varied back door cuts. 

With all the positives, I hate to mention a couple of negatives, but I am sure Tara will.  What is going on with Toni?  She went 2-14 and looked a little off balance at times.  I think those two she made may both have been on fast breaks--her jump shot just seemed slightly off, rattling around and coming out a few different times.  She did go 5-6 at the line and had 3 steals, and played good defense, so she did her part to contribute, but I'm sure she is frustrated with her shot. 

Sarah gave us good minutes on defense and absorbed some fouls, but she nabbed only 1 rebound and made one basket.  She doesn't seem quite all the way back to me.  But we really needed her with the fouls on Nneka and Chiney and she helped defensively, altering some shots.

Jos played 38 minutes--that might be a record for her, and her defense seemed very solid.  I saw her beaten a couple of times (once leading to an and-1) but for 38 minutes being beaten once or twice is not bad at all.  Plus 7 rebounds, 2 blocks, and 7 points and she definitely held up her end of things.

Chiney honestly did not look like her knee was bothering her at all.  She scored more points at the FT line than in FGs.  Nneka was her usual indomitable self but the two of them definitely did not dominate the rebounds as they are used to--just 11 between the two of them and only 4 offensive rebounds. 

Now, we have most of a week to worry about South Carolina!

Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - CompSci87 - 03-19-2012

Tara was masterful working the refs ahead of time in the newspapers!


Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - treefan - 03-19-2012

(03-19-2012, 06:54 PM)Viking_Guy link Wrote:Glenn--

I too was asking that question.  But I think she was disappointed with the bench's play at the end of the Hampton game.  Plus, there's not that much of a healthy bench right now.  Boothe played a lot of minutes, and Erica hasn't had a lot of time this year.  So not many forwards.  Greenfield got some minutes, but Tara really got in her grill after the delay when they should've called the foul on the three-point shot; maybe Taylor lost her mark in the corner?

Other than that, the only bench players healthy who didn't play was Grace, though Sara and Erica only got in the last minute.  I actually would've liked to have seen some Bonnie minutes, if she's going to be able to shoot with the broken finger on her offhand, but another week of healing can't hurt.  I also think Tara is always wary of giving the other team any momentum until they're going to their own bench and sitting the starters (she started subbing when WVa sat Bussie, I think).

Speaking as someone who was arguing about this back in 1997 and 98, when we were routinely blowing teams out by 30+ but would yank our freshmen at the first sign of trouble (I think it really hurt Carolyn Moos' development, for example), it's continued to be frustrating.  I would've liked to have seen some more minutes for Payne and James.  But I don't think the SoCar game will give us that chance; I would've much rather played Purdue.

And btw, that "power conference", the B1G 10(?), is now 2-6 in the tourney, with Purdue looking rather bad at home and Penn State looking at a tough matchup at LSU in the second round.

VG


VG

Interesting points VG. Nygaard should not have been in game at OSU when she blew out her knee the week before H game in '98. And, Flores and Pederson (both sophs), who Tara threw under the bus for H game, could have been developed more their frosh years.

Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - treefan - 03-19-2012

(03-19-2012, 08:33 PM)81alum link Wrote:A superb first half.  I too was not that happy with the second half, but I think our strategy was significantly altered by our lead.  It seemed to me that the team must have been instructed in the second half not to start plays until the shot clock was at least half way down.  We wanted to slow the pace and eat as much clock as possible.  That took away a lot of opportunities and West Virginia caught on--defending well at the end of the shot clock and causing some bad shots and shot clock violations. 

So our offense did seem more stale to me in the second half.  But here is an odd thing:  despite my impressions we scored almost as many points (34 compared with 38) despite having our shooting percentage collapse from 53.8% in the first half to only 32.1% in the second half.  The difference was largely FTs--we scored 7 in the first half to 16 in the second.

What more can we say about Amber?  We are witnessing the development of a star.  Norfolk was Amber's national debutante ball.  8-14 shots and 6-7 FTs!  5 assists to 0 (zero!) turnovers.  She was the main reason we had only 6 turnovers against a team famous for steals and defense.    But did anyone notice that Amber led the team in rebounds?  Actually, she was tied with Jos for 7, but still, a point guard with 7 rebounds?

One big advantage for us was that the refs decided to call the game fairly close.  West Virginia exceeded even their very high average 18 fouls per game and picked up 23 tonight.  They wound up with 3 players at 4 fouls each and another at 3.  All those fouls made it difficult for West Virginia to play their normal maul-ball.

Our coaching was brilliant in at least two ways.  First, on defense, we did something that effectively neutralized West Virginia's vaunted high-low game for almost the whole game.  Bussie was only 4-13.  Second, on offense, as others have pointed out, we made them pay dearly for their overly aggressive man-to-man with a string of varied back door cuts. 

With all the positives, I hate to mention a couple of negatives, but I am sure Tara will.  What is going on with Toni?  She went 2-14 and looked a little off balance at times.  I think those two she made may both have been on fast breaks--her jump shot just seemed slightly off, rattling around and coming out a few different times.  She did go 5-6 at the line and had 3 steals, and played good defense, so she did her part to contribute, but I'm sure she is frustrated with her shot. 

Sarah gave us good minutes on defense and absorbed some fouls, but she nabbed only 1 rebound and made one basket.  She doesn't seem quite all the way back to me.  But we really needed her with the fouls on Nneka and Chiney and she helped defensively, altering some shots.

Jos played 38 minutes--that might be a record for her, and her defense seemed very solid.  I saw her beaten a couple of times (once leading to an and-1) but for 38 minutes being beaten once or twice is not bad at all.  Plus 7 rebounds, 2 blocks, and 7 points and she definitely held up her end of things.

Chiney honestly did not look like her knee was bothering her at all.  She scored more points at the FT line than in FGs.  Nneka was her usual indomitable self but the two of them definitely did not dominate the rebounds as they are used to--just 11 between the two of them and only 4 offensive rebounds. 

Now, we have most of a week to worry about South Carolina!

I'm hoping Toni is just in a minor slump and not hurting anywhere. Worry about injuries this time of year. Chiney and Toni missed some chippies, but getting to the line was key.

I thought we could have blocked out better all game. Also agree with VG about lazy (or bad calls) fouls by O sisters. Gotta be smarter.

Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - M T - 03-20-2012

I believe the announcers were correct in their description of the problem that prompted the discussion of the officials.

At 2:01 in the 1st, Melissa called a foul during a rebound (at the WVU end) in which WVU #20 collided into Chiney.  This was the 8th foul against WVU in the half. (The previous foul had resulted in a 1 and 1.)  Robert Enterline (an umpire) signaled for the ball to be played on the end line.  Melissa did not indicate that foul shots should be taken.  As this was not a player-control foul or team-control foul, it was a common foul after bonus had gone into effect. It should have been a 1-and-1 free throw situation.  However, play continued with Stanford throwing the ball in.

Failure to award a merited free throw is a correctable error.  The error occurred when the clock was dead (after the foul).  Stanford got the ball & eventually scored.  At that time, the ball was dead for the first time since the error occurred (which is when corrections can & must occur).  The error could have been corrected then, but was not.  Once WVU threw the ball inbound, the error was no longer correctable.

If I understand the rules correctly (and I may not!), had the official realized the error during Stanford's possession, then the error would have been corrected immediately after Lindy's score.  Lindy's basket would have counted. The free throw(s) would then have been awarded, but no rebounds would be made.  Play would have continued after the free throws with the throw-in by WVU as a result of Lindy's basket. 

I see nothing in the video that gives a clue when the official (Angelica Suffren) realized the error.  She correctly waited until a dead ball situation to raise the issue.  (Note that neither the referee (Melissa) or the other umpire (Robert Enterline) nor the official scorer nor (at least) the Stanford bench or players realized the error.  (Nor did I, and probably lots of other viewers.)

I suspect Melissa involved the official scorer to point out that it is his responsibility (by rule 2-9.11) to alert the nearest official to the requirement for free throws on every foul after the 7th (not just the 7th and 10th).

The discussion of the on-court officials, after the discussion with the official scorer, looks like the other two officials are instructing Angelina.  I have a theory as to what that was about, but it is only speculation.  Angelina seems to finally understand something after Melissa points to both ends.  I have to wonder if Angelina delayed bringing up the question until the second dead ball when she knew realized it before the first.

Before play started after the discussion, Angelina explained it to Mary Murphy who then summarized it on air.


Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - 76lsjumb - 03-20-2012

(03-20-2012, 03:10 AM)MT link Wrote:I believe the announcers were correct in their description of the problem that prompted the discussion of the officials.

MT -- I am more than happy to defer to your conclusion, as it is clearly based on a more thorough analysis of the situation than my 30 second review of Gametracker play-by-play.  And it makes the interminable delay that it caused in real-time much more understandable.  Kind of like going to a basketball game and having a golf match [complete with Rules Officials] break out.

Thanks.

Re: HT Stanford 38 WVa 21 - CompSci87 - 03-20-2012

MT, nice explanation. I happened to rewatch the first half last night, and I think you're right.

What Mary said was a bit ambiguous/confusing because she didn't say which foul we should have shot FTs on. Moments ago, viewers had seen a takedown of Tinkle during the 3-pointer which we were expecting to have been called a foul -- but that was actually a no-call. So some of us were erroneously thinking that was the foul we should have shot FTs on.