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Baylor - Stanford - M T - 04-01-2012

8:20 left.  Baylor up 12.  It looks like Baylor has put Brittney on the weak side.

The officiating has been... unique.  I've never seen such unusual calls.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - Leftcoast - 04-01-2012

Well, our team isn't playing well in the second half when they have the ball in their hands.  Now it's 12 minutes into the second period and we've scored a total of 5 points.  Chiney just picked up her 5th foul within seconds of coming back into the game - a gamble that backfired on Tara.

Nneka needs to channel her inner Michael Jordan to get Stanford back into this.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - washingtonismoney - 04-01-2012

Disappointing to see it end like this, especially with such unusual reffing.

I'm not inclined to blame it on that, though. We couldn't score, and it seems as if our offense too often lets us down when we get to this stage. There hasn't been a really good Stanford freelancer since Candice Wiggins, and a strategy to suck down the shot clock every possession accentuates that weakness. Orrange might yet become that player, but she was overly cautious tonight and telegraphed too many passes. I can't help but wonder whether that cautiousness came from above--that comment about Griner using a 5'7" player as a toothpick from Vanderveer seemed to allude to Orrange directly, and given the history of Vanderveer/point guard conflicts over the years, you wonder whether there's too much fealty to the system. It's a great system for 99% of teams, but if winning a national championship is important, we need to figure out that last little bit.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - needle - 04-01-2012

A tough loss, probably most easily explained by some really poor outside shooting. Sharper eyes than mine can comment more on the officiating, with Baylor seemingly getting more than their share of the calls.

Nneka played very well, and the defensive game plan mostly worked. Yes, there were some turnovers and Baylor got a few looks that were too easy, but I think that if just a couple of timely outside shots had fallen for Stanford, there might well have been a different outcome.

2-17 from beyond the arc was never going to get it done.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - jacketree - 04-01-2012

What exactly was unique about the officiating? Stanford fouled more than Baylor did.  (Too bad so many fouls were on offensive screens. Still scratching my head over those.)

Stanford did a great job taking Baylor out of its offense. Unfortunately they took themselves out of their own offense. I'd rather have Griner block a few shots than watch weave after weave on the perimeter and the shot clock inside 5 seconds before clanking a three.  I think the Irish have a decent shot.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - dabigv13 - 04-01-2012

Dissapointing offensive performance.

Also never heard Griner interviewed before, that is a larynx thats seen a lot of testosterone.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - JeffInCorvallis - 04-01-2012

The defensive strategy worked extremely well, especially in the first half, but we had a lot of difficulty generating any offense.  We looked way out of rhythm in the second half.  Don't know how much of that to attribute to Griner's presence in the lane.  Just about everybody except Toni and Nneka seemed scared to shoot the ball. 

We needed to have a 6-10 point lead at halftime with that defensive peroformance and slow down possessions on offense.  Once we went cold in the middle part of the second half we were done.

Hats off to Nneka and the rest of this team.  A super season, another final four appearance.  As tough as this loss is to take, a team to really be proud of.

P.S.  I am getting a little annoyed with Maya Moore this and Briittney Griner that.  I want the national media focused on a Stanford player for a change.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - Viking_Guy - 04-01-2012

Jacketree, the game really did turn around on about three calls.

(1) Bonnie Samuelson being called for stepping on the sideline as she knocked down a 3 early in the second half.  That would have given Stanford a 34-32 lead.  Instead, Baylor turned that into the middle section of the 13-1 run that gave them the lead they maintained all game.

The thing about it is, we NEVER saw a replay.  Given the number of times you can check whether a shot was actually a 3 or not, I found the lack of a replay disturbing.  Also, having been in Fresno, I really dislike the penny ante camera setup ESPN is employing in the women's game.  I noticed exactly 2 (in the same spot, high at midcourt) and three mobile cameras.  That's not a lot for a national championship.  And really, how many shots that weren't (1) high from midcourt or (2) directly under the basket did you see the entire game?

Also, given how hot the entire bench was over that call, I would've like to have seen a replay.  Called by Lisa Mattingly.

(2) Less than a minute later, Chiney gets called for an offensive foul holding off Griner while Kokenis (Orrange?) drives the lane in transition.  In all my years of watching basketball, I have seen that call made maybe 3 times.  The offensive player has a right to that position.  The foul, Chiney's third, was called by Lisa Mattingly from the midcourt stripe.

(3) The offensive foul on Nneka for a screen on Sims.  MAYBE she was moving slightly, but again, Lisa Mattingly called it, which was Nneka's third.

Those three calls really enabled the decisive run in the game.

More generally, only three players really didn't play scared on offense tonight: Nneka, and to a lesser extent Chiney and Toni.  We couldn't win this game without shooting well, and we didn't.  Jos and Amber a combined 2-16?  That was never going to get it done.

What makes it sadder is that Nneka really did outplay Griner - she took her off the dribble, powered through her for a couple of stickbacks, and really showed up.

VG


Re: Baylor - Stanford - needle - 04-01-2012

I thought the foul on Nneka for the screen in the backcourt was pretty clearly a good call when they showed the replay.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - jacketree - 04-01-2012

The game turned on 2-17, not any particular call.

Of course it would have been at least 3-18 if she hadn't stepped out.  Without a replay I can't get that indignant, but that court was unusual, without any contrasting paint along the bench. Doubt they just made that call up, however. My son thought the game was lost right there.

The other two calls your reference looked pretty obvious to me. Chiney's was definitely a moving screen and Nneka's was a no doubt about it shove. Pretty easy call.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - 76lsjumb - 04-01-2012

Random thoughts:

Unfortunately, we got the wrong set of refs tonight.

Nneka did her part [and then some].  Everyone else looked...intimidated.

As others have pointed out, we had 50% of a great overall gameplan -- that was, obviously, the defensive half.  It seemed to work because, in fact -- Kim Mulkey's protestations notwithstanding -- this team really is all about Griner.  Given that virtually no shot taken by Baylor was contested EXCEPT for those taken by Griner, how do they score so few points [and a brobdingnagian chunk of those from the FT line, no less]?  Replace Griner with a normal player and Baylor is good, but not Final Four- good.

That moving screen call on Chiney during the Kokeinis (?) lay-up was ridiculous.  Griner was simply pushing Chiney toward the basket.

Odyssey Sims is a whiner...

I've finally figured out who Griner sounds like:  Jake...from State Farm.

If Griner goes off on ND the way Dolson did tonight, it's Baylor by 20+.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - 76lsjumb - 04-01-2012

(04-01-2012, 08:34 PM)Viking_Guy link Wrote:..., I really dislike the penny ante camera setup ESPN is employing in the women's game.  I noticed exactly 2 (in the same spot, high at midcourt) and three mobile cameras.  That's not a lot for a national championship.  And really, how many shots that weren't (1) high from midcourt or (2) directly under the basket did you see the entire game?

VG

It's not just the women's game.  The camera-work at the NIT games in NY was the most annoying I have ever viewed.  Lots of floor angle shots seemingly taken from seats that you wouldn't pay to sit in.  Long periods of time when play was going on and the camera was trained on someone in the audience or a player or coach on the bench.  there was a really sweet inbounds play by Stanford where all we saw was the ball going through the hoop...and never a replay.  I figured it was because their "A-team" folks were in Denver, but I guess not.  They don't seem to have any "A-Team" folks this year.  And what made it even more distressing at the NIT was that [I think] Kim Belton was the producer for the NIT broadcasts.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - Viking_Guy - 04-01-2012

Jacketree--

What I meant by turned was "enabled the decisive run."  The fact that we shot 2-17 from 3 point range, along with other offensive ineptitude, was one indicator of a deciding factor in the entire game.  But those three calls (and okay, the Nneka moving screen call was the most defensible of the three) created three extra possessions for Baylor, and that run in the middle of the second half was the decisive point.  Up until that point, Stanford was playing fairly cohesively, and though they were milking the clock, other players were involved, moving off the ball and really working together well.

After that run, I noticed more and more tentativeness on offense, MUCH more of a "wait for Nneka to do something" attitude from the other players.

The moving screen call on Chiney - well, perhaps, though Chiney has just as much of a right to be in that spot as Griner does.  But again, how often have you seen that call made?  By the referee 35 feet away rather than the baseline official under the basket?

You're right, 2-17 was never going to get it done, as I said (with Jos and Amber going a combined 2-16).  But I feel that there are key sequences in most games where decisive action takes place, where separation is achieved, and where the course of the game changes.  That run in this game, in my opinion, was enabled in part by those three calls.

Don't get me wrong, there were other problems.  We didn't turn the ball over too much, but the turnovers in the first half were absolute killers (and Lindy did it again - the completely telegraphed pass at the top of the offense that turned into a fast break layup).  Without those, the Cardinal might have been ahead.

And it really did seem we were satisfied with playing great defense, and didn't have nearly as much of a plan on offense.  Though the back cuts in the first half were great, and I'm not quite certain how that fell apart so completely.  But the plan also had no interior play at all - we simply ceded the interior to Griner far too much of the time.  I would've loved to have seen some sister-to-sister inside passing trying to get Griner turned around.

Ah, well.  It is what it is.

Thanks, Nneka.  You are a great player, and a better person.

VG

EDIT:

Not just my opinion.

From the ESPN reporting on the game:

TURNING POINT: With just more than 14 minutes left and Stanford down 34-31, Chiney Ogwumike was whistled for an offensive foul for warding off Griner from the basket. It negated a Toni Kokenis layup that would have made it a one-point game. Instead, the Cardinal didn't score a field goal for the next three minutes and Baylor scored eight of the next nine points to take a 10-point lead.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - needle - 04-01-2012

I agree that the call on Chiney was questionable. From memory, though, didn't Chiney have her arms out, sorta extended and almost at her shoulder level? Maybe you do that if you're calling for the ball, of course, and I think it would have been a good no call.

But, yeah, not to lose sight of the larger point...it certainly seemed like Stanford only needed to string together a couple of successful offensive possessions to get the momentum squarely in their favor and put the pressure on Baylor. Alas, those buckets never came.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - jacketree - 04-01-2012

VG,

OK - I understand now.  Yes the game turned at that point.  Sigh...Stanford really has no one to blame but themselves.  On offense, I think they over-thought everything and were really tentative as a team sans one. Or maybe they just laid bricks at the wrong time.  Baylor and Greiner are really good, but certainly not unworldly.  I really think ND can beat them.

Re: Baylor - Stanford - oman - 04-01-2012

(04-01-2012, 09:12 PM)Viking_Guy link Wrote:After that run, I noticed more and more tentativeness on offense, MUCH more of a "wait for Nneka to do something" attitude from the other players.

I don't know the girls game very well, but it struck me that we were very tentative the whole game, spending brobdingnagian chunks of time just waiting for something to happen.  I realize Griner is a force but it would have been nice to try to attack more quickly. 

Re: Baylor - Stanford - Leftcoast - 04-01-2012

We can't blame the refs for this one.  As much as I love our team, Baylor looked like the better squad tonight. 

Yup, this was the game where the lack of a legitimate, game on the line, steely eyed, I want the D*&% ball, 3-pt threat finally bit us.  Tara gambled on a strategy of slowing down Griner and daring the rest of Baylor's team to beat her and while Griner's supporting cast didn't shine tonight they eventually built a 10 point lead.  That's not much normally but tonight it felt unsurmountable with the slowed possessions, dreadful Stanford shooting percentages and a hesitant backcourt playing hot potato with the ball. 

The call on Chiney was a key point in the game but that doesn't make it wrong.  The replay showed the ref got it right - Chiney had her back to Griner with arms and elbows extended (not in the frame of the body) and clearly initiated contact.  This is a no-call if Chiney were posting up but she was obviously holding off Griner from challenging the Kokenis drive - and thus the illegal pick call.  The commentators rightly pointed out that she needed to sell a post up to have any chance of avoiding an illegal screen call.

Sometimes you lose the big ones and sometimes you lose 'em five times in a row.  Losing tastes awful and it's a bitter cup to choke down when we have to see this group of women lose.  Again.

Baylor by 15 on Tuesday.

/Lefty

Re: Baylor - Stanford - Yellowlab - 04-02-2012

Tough end to a great season.  We thought Jos behind the arc might be a key, but 2-17?  We didn't expect that.  Yes some were desperation heaves, but others were simply missed open looks.

I won't repeat the other excellent observations made already, but I will say that ND does not have the height to employ the defense Stanford used. 

What a great season.  Thank you Nneka!

Re: Baylor - Stanford - 76lsjumb - 04-02-2012

(04-01-2012, 11:26 PM)Leftcoast link Wrote:We can't blame the refs for this one.  As much as I love our team, Baylor looked like the better squad tonight. 

/Lefty

I agree that the refs didn't cause us to lose [and, hence, I don't blame them].  I do believe, however, that, had the refs taken a different...approach -- that is, the approach adopted by the refs in the ND/UConn game -- the outcome might have been more favorable.  Although, with 2-17 from 3-point land, maybe not...  :(    This season I thought we had finally put to rest the old dribble-out-the-clock-and-heave-up-a-prayer offense, but that zombie really seems to die hard.

After the weekend started out so promisingly with the men's NIT championship, it ended up being something of a bust for Cardinal fans [men's volleyball losing to SC and baseball getting swept in Arizona, among other things...]

Re: Baylor - Stanford - fullmetal - 04-02-2012

As others have said, the game seemed to hinge on the match-up between Odyssey Sims and Amber Orrange, with the Cardinal freshman getting the worse of the match-up.  Orrange just looked wary out there, as did much of the Cardinal backcourt.  There were a few instances where the ladies drove baseline but didn't attempt a shot and had to pass the ball coming out of the other side of the paint.  I'm also not sure if our shooters got into any kind of rhythm.  Lots of long two-pt shots that were made--but fewer threes.