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We'll be seeing another coach of Army - washingtonismoney - 12-15-2013

In fall 2014: https://twitter.com/SIPeteThamel/status/412376335093211136

Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - Nan3cy - 12-15-2013

Not an easy place to win.


Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - Farm93 - 12-15-2013

Don't need to win, just need to BEAT NAVY.

With the losing streak at 12 and Navy posting winning seasons from time to time there apparently is no tolerance for honorable losers.

Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - OutsiderFan - 12-15-2013

It's time.  Army has been the worst academy team for a long time.  Yes, it's tough to win there, but just because it is, that doesn't mean you stop trying to be better.  It would be awesome to have Army field a credible football team, but at minimum they really do need to end their losing streak to Navy!



Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - fullmetal - 12-15-2013

Is there a big talent difference between Army football and Navy football players?  If not, then it's just X's and O's, which definitely points the responsibility arrow at the coach.  But if Navy is somehow getting better players, then that might be a little more difficult to deal with.  And then there's Air Force...

Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - Bruce Wang - 12-16-2013

(12-15-2013, 07:46 PM)fullmetal link Wrote:Is there a big talent difference between Army football and Navy football players?  If not, then it's just X's and O's, which definitely points the responsibility arrow at the coach.  But if Navy is somehow getting better players, then that might be a little more difficult to deal with.  And then there's Air Force...

My hypothesis is that Navy gets first pick among football players interested in the service academies.  It's first among equals right now because of the importance of force projection.  Also my guess is that the mortality rate (with the exception of SEALs and Marines) is lower than the Army.  Back during the Cold War, the Air Force was first among equals because of the importance of nukes and during that time, I believe Air Force had the better football team, which is consistent with my hypothesis.

There must be people here who know more about this than I do, so would be curious to hear thoughts about this hypothesis.

Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - terry - 12-16-2013

(12-16-2013, 09:32 AM)Publius link Wrote:My hypothesis is that Navy gets first pick among football players interested in the service academies.  It's first among equals right now because of the importance of force projection.  Also my guess is that the mortality rate (with the exception of SEALs and Marines) is lower than the Army.  Back during the Cold War, the Air Force was first among equals because of the importance of nukes and during that time, I believe Air Force had the better football team, which is consistent with my hypothesis.

There must be people here who know more about this than I do, so would be curious to hear thoughts about this hypothesis.

Your hypothesis makes some sense if we assume that 17 year olds are thinking strategically about their future military careers.

I'm not so sure that's the case. I suspect their decisions may have more to do with traditional recruiting factors -- do they like the coach, do they like the campus, how far from home do they want to go, do they think the team can win, what do their friends, family and high school coaches say, etc. Just a guess.

Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - Farm93 - 12-16-2013

Whatever career or survival advantage exists in the Navy was present 10 & 20 years ago too.  FWIW - The Navy has always had that more brutal deployment schedule, so each branch has unique QOL challenges.  Seems like the annual odds of dying from an attack on a destroyer or aircraft carrier has got to be lower than the odds of dying from a gun on most streets in America.  I suspect if non-BCS AQ level athletes really mapped out the realistic lifetime earnings and QOL for their various college options then becoming an officer for a military academy would become a very viable selection.

The problem for Army, I think, is that Navy found a way to win and now that is giving them a recruiting edge.  On Saturday it was clear that Navy had 4 or 5 players that were well above the talent level at Army.  Navy finally becoming competitive with Notre Dame rather than just getting crushed each year has definitely helped Navy too.



Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - Langdude - 12-16-2013

I heard that David Shaw is a candidate for the Army head coaching job. Or maybe it was Jim Harbaugh.

-m.

Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - needle - 12-16-2013

Since 2003, Navy has had exactly one losing season (going 5-7 in 2011). They basically average eight wins in the regular season now. You have to go back to the 1950s to find a comparable stretch of success.

Since 1997, Army has had exactly one winning season (Ellerson's 7-6 run in 2010, which included a bowl run). Army football fans should just drop their constant comparisons to Navy. String together a couple of five+ win seasons first.

Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - doug - 12-16-2013

I grew up at West Point, my Dad played football for Army in the glory years of WWII, and Army is my second favorite team. The question as to the respective talent levels at Army vs. Navy and Air Force is interesting. To my understanding, Army is generally considered the "hardest" (purely subjectively in terms of the overall life of a cadet) and least compromising of the academies. Nevertheless, there has historically been a pretty good competitive balance between the academies, but that has changed. Army was at a competitive disadvantage during the Vietnam years and for some time after, but balance was ultimately restored.

There may be a new factor at play in Navy's ascension in the last ~15 years. The Washington Post did a long story about 2-3 years ago, tracing the slack (both athletic and other) Navy was giving football players. The point of the story as I recall was that Army and Navy usually recruit from the same basic pool but Navy was admitting and retaining guys that Army couldn't or wouldn't.

Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - fullmetal - 12-16-2013

Does Navy also run the triple-option?  IIRC, both Army and Air Force run the triple-option.

Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - PrinceLightfoot - 12-16-2013

Navy does run the triple option.

Army Navy observations (stupidly long and completely OT to Stanford) - jacketree - 12-17-2013

I got to see Rich Ellerson's last game as Army coach in person. A few rambling observations:

1. Hard core college football fans really should go to an Army-Navy game at least once; and do so in Philadelphia, which does a great job with the game. Our experience was great. It was 16 degrees when we disembarked from the red eye at 6:00; SEPTA was right on time, my newish Carhartt performed exceptionally well on the trek from Penn Station to our downtown hotel, I was able to admonish Mrs. Jacketree for not wearing thermals as I instructed on said trek and for once I was right about something, and we did not spend the weekend in Logan Square like Jack Lemmon and Sandy Dennis in The Out of Towners. In fact, I marched us right to the hotel without once looking at the map, and in a miracle of miracles, a room was available at 6:45 a.m. nearly 9 hours before check in. After a rejuvenating nap, we found a pub for lunch (I spied the Christmas tree made out of beer bottles first), walked thru City Hall, and continued up Ben Franklin Parkway to the Philadelphia Museum of Art.  I made Mrs. Jacketree run the steps and do her Rocky pose like all the German tourists were doing.  Exceptional museum.  The next morning after eating something called the "Kitchen Sink" at a local cafe, I received a text from the kid saying they just got to the stadium, so we donned the layers (7 above the waist for me; 4 below) and hopped the Broad Street line for the 20 minute trip. 

They hold Cadets and Midshipmen in the same basic pen in the northeastern parking lot before March On (a sight in and of itself), so we met more of his friends.  No real problems and lots of intermingling from both fan bases and academy students.  It's "Beat Army" or "Sink Navy". Not a single "**** Other Team" T-shirt like you'll see at Big Game.  Temperature in the high 20s and snow starts to fall as we head into Lincoln Financial Field to find our seats.

You suspect there might be trouble when your seats are just below a series of wind turbines (Philly goes green) and there is road de-icing salt everywhere including the seats.  Mrs. Jacketree: "This is the best you could do?"  Jacketree: "Yes. Yes it is."  I comment somewhat dejectedly that the low sky and snow (now really falling) might put the kibosh on the flyover.  Maybe five seconds after finishing that thought, F-18 hornets scream overhead, apparently practicing in the snow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=703UyVCHhaE

We watch the March On for both Army and Navy.  After listening to the West Point contingent boo the Midshipmen and calling them {word for homosexuals} in the concourse on the way to meet up with our son between March On and the game, my charitable thoughts about how it would actually be OK or even good for the rivalry to have Army win vanished.  We met my son, his friends, and a number of parents in the nice (relatively) toasty concourse. We head back to our seats for the National Anthem and the real flyover.  Best I've seen. Blue Angels (F18s) south to north, followed by Apache Attack Helicopters north to south, followed by F18s west to east:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzVHuwy6eTI

2. The stadium was full at kickoff:

[Image: BbeLvixCYAAcGzP.jpg]

but it slowly emptied due to the frigid conditions and driving snow that turned to some demonic combination of hail, sleet, and rain after halftime. The game in all honesty was not competitive after Navy stopped dicking around and actually ran the triple option. Navy is that much better. Better players running a better scheme, although they may be head and shoulders above Army just because of Keenan Reynolds. Reynolds ended up setting the NCAA rushing TD record for quarterbacks and adding one for good measure.  Navy went for two when they were up 26-7 with 6 minutes left in the game, using an end around pass back to Reynolds.  Running trick plays when the opponent is all but done?  Navy coach said something about getting Reynolds the academy record for points in a season, but I suspect that Ellerson's comments the previous year about Army being three touchdowns better than Navy might have had something to do with it. (No THIS is 3 touchdowns better; not 20 points better, 3 full touchdowns.)  For further measure, Army promptly fumbled again giving Navy the ball at about the 20 with nearly 4 minutes to kill.  They ran another trick play (throwback again to Reynolds) and while it didn't work as planned, they still sat on the Army goal line with almost two minutes to go. Reynolds scored on a fourth down QB sneak and Navy missed the XP. Maybe there was some pity there after all.  Then the words we really wanted to hear: "In light of the spirit demonstrated during Beat Army Week, the Commandant hereby grants Midshipmen full weekend liberty."

The stadium was pretty empty at this point, and we had moved deep into the Army section seeking cover under the upper deck overhang.  No one seemed to care that Navy may have run up the score, or was super hot and bothered that the Midshipmen were chanting "12 more years!" and everyone was respectful as Army sung first, then Navy sung second yet again.  We met our son who was now free to stay with us without burning his liberty chit and walked through freezing sleet to his sponsor's tailgate in Lot N, hard by I-95.  Maybe not the Eucalyptus grove, but he had tents, chandeliers, big blowtorch heaters, and all kinds of fryers going. Crab, fries, corn, chilli, pulled pork, and to Mrs. Jacketree's horror, beer in little red cups. We wound back through Flyers traffic to the Broad Street subway and headed north with our son back to the hotel.  Subways are subways and some very nicely dressed young woman was blowing chunks into her fur coat.  In SF people would simply avoid the vomit splatters. With a car full of Cadets and Midshipmen, they decided the situation was no good and formed a plan to find police help while others monitored her. (Pretty proud of my son here - he lead the charge.) 

3. Heard in the restroom from Army fans on the way out: "I just don't care anymore. Where's the bar?"  Some might point to Navy taking players Army won't (I don't necessarily dispute that and would be interested in reading that WaPo article), but the Army fans at our hotel thought that West Point itself just doesn't care anymore. Not the way Navy does. Firing Ellerson won't change anything unless there is a change from the top according to the Army fans I spoke with.  Not so sure about that. Coaching is everything in college football, and I don't know how West Point has hamstrung Ellerson, unless they really can't recruit from the same pool as Navy and Air Force. (Air Force seems to be dropping off a little bit too.) But they all thought he would be fired, because you just can't lose to Navy every year and survive.

4. Recruits to the service academies are told to select the service, not the academy. They say there are only two armed forces in the U.S. - the Army and the Navy. The Air Force is a corporation and the Marines are a religion. I think ultimate service selection may play a part in Navy's recent success versus Army's. The Navy is generally more varied (ships, subs, aviation, SEALs, EOD, etc.) and if you want to play Army, you can do that in the Marines, which a number of football players do. As to the three academies, West Point is in the middle of nowhere but close to New York; Air Force is in the middle of nowhere but close to Colorado Springs; and Navy is in the middle of Annapolis and half an hour away from Washington and Baltimore.  I know where I'd prefer to go to school.

6. Army is insane if they don't make Ivin Jasper, Navy's longtime assistant coach, a creditable offer.  It will be interesting to see who they bring to Palo Alto next year.





Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - fullmetal - 12-18-2013

A young alum friend of mine, former Axe Comm, recently finished Naval OCS and was at the game as well.  Insane weather.

Re: We'll be seeing another coach of Army - needle - 12-18-2013

Former Wake Forest HC Jim Grobe lobbying a bit for the Army job:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/former-wake-forest-coach-jim-grobe-wants-considered-222543865--ncaaf.html