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For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - Printable Version

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For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - Redrum - 01-19-2015

but it was a sharp move on Kelly's part.  Only Andrus Peat would have been a candidate, but you've got to think it would have been worth a try if legal.
.  I mean, in the end it was loving where they were going to school that did it.
http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/notre-dame-fighting-irish-brian-kelly-ronnie-stanley-sheldon-day-nfl-prospects-011815

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - TrumpCard - 01-19-2015

This is mostly just interesting spin.  Every coach advises his players on the pros and cons of leaving early.  If a coach clearly acts as an advocate, rather than as an independent adviser, the kid will not rely on the coach's recommendation.  The only relatively new piece of the puzzle is that Kelly (and other coaches) can now legally offer to pay for insurance in case the player gets injured.  I am not sure whether I would want Stanford to follow suit. 

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - Bruce Wang - 01-19-2015

We already offer the best insurance out there for student-athletes: a Stanford degree.

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - StanFan88 - 01-19-2015

I'm very torn on this.  Part of me says all or none - you either insure everyone on the roster or no one.  Another part of me says the kid should buy the insurance but I know lots of kids and their families can't afford it.  And you sure as hell don't want a third party buying it for them because that introduces all kinds of issues with the NCAA and boosters and illegal benefits.

I can understand why you'd want to do it, I'm just not completely sold that it's the right thing to do (but I also don't have a better answer)

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - socalstanfan1 - 01-20-2015

I've been thinking about the title of this thread: would Shaw/Stanford do this?  The only reason I can see why they would not is the possible concern about setting up a hierarchy among players on the team.  Do you extend the offer of injury insurance to every person facing the choice of staying one more year or testing the NFL? Do you only extend it to players whom the reports say will be drafted? Or only those likely to be drafted on the first day?  I'm sure the players all understand who among them qualify as major stars with futures in the NFL, but sometimes the NFL is late on catching up to who the really good players will be.  Cam Fleming ended up being drafted at essentially the same area of the draft as David Yankey, though coming in to their final season all the buzz was about Yankey.  And I don't know you want to have a team where 5 or 6 players are getting Stanford to buy their insurance, but other players are not.  For team chemistry, I suspect it should be an all-or-nothing situation.  Either all Srs. are offered injury insurance, or none are. 

On the other hand, if the offer was just out there, that this was part of the Stanford "package" (along with a scholarship), would it violate NCAA rules? It would be a helluva sweetener for top players considering Stanford as they come out of HS.

Edit: Ferrari mentioned Baldwin as a successful player worthy of insurance.  But this was not the evaluation of Baldwin entering his final season at Stanford.  Baldwin went undrafted, so if we based buying insurance on whether the NFL services predicted whether a guy would have a potential NFL career, Baldwin might have been left out.  Another argument for the all-or-nothing alternative.

Also, totally agree with Ferrari's bigger point about athletes being forced into college.  NFL and NBA need to stop using college athletics as their only farm system.  Take a lesson from baseball and hockey: offer a legitimate minor league, + a university option for student-athletes who want the college experience.  I've held that opinion for a while now.

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - BostonCard - 01-20-2015

Presumably, the offer of loss of value insurance only extends to the players who actually have value (value to the NFL, that is).  Thus, I could see juniors and seniors with eligibility remaining who are potential draft picks undergoing a pre-draft evaluation, and, if they are found to project being drafted, then their insurance is based on their potential value if they subsequently suffer an injury or illness that causes their stock to drop.

Interesting factoid... no college football player has ever collected on loss-of-value insurance.

BC

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - AtlantaBadger - 01-20-2015

Boston Card cites an interesting factoid about no college player ever collecting on loss of value insurance.  I don't know whether or not that is true but I believe it.  We have been asked about that with Henry, but I think the insurance is just a ripoff unless[b][/b] you are an Andrew Luck or a John Elway or [pick your favorite consensus, no-doubt No. 1 pick].  The problem is, unless you are THE unanimous No. 1 pick (or even clear top 5 pick), how do you prove damages?  The amount you would presumably collect under the policy would be the difference between what you would have been paid if fully healthy minus the amount you actually were paid as the lower draft pick. 

Speaking as one who frequently deals with insurance in my line of work, good luck proving that number.  You would need one or more experts [for example, a real NFL GM] to testify under oath that had you been fully healthy, our team would have picked you in the first round with our pick, but since you were hurt you dropped to the fourth round, or whatever.  Sounds easy, but I doubt you could find an actual GM to swear under oath that, by God, player X was definitely our first round pick, but for the injury.  It is NEVER that easy, again, unless you are talking about the extremely small handful of players, like Andrew Luck for example, about whom you probably actually could get a GM to testify about that. 

For a player like Henry, the insurance made zero sense, because his draft position was certainly not the sure-fire top 5 pick (particularly at the end of the 2013 season when he had been injured part of the year), and so measuring the "drop" would be virtually impossible.  When colleges like ND or anyone else pay for  the insurance, (a) I assume they probably get it cheaper than what the individual would pay, and (b) it is worth every penny if they get a valuable veteran player to stay on one more year.  It is basically window dressing that conveys to the player that the school really cares about you and we don't want your decision to stay to result in you making less down the road.  But it is not altruistic.

Eric

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - dabomb1227 - 01-20-2015

Well one college football player is about to collect on his disability policy, though it is a disability policy as opposed to a loss of value policy.  Marcus Lattimore can collect on his policy now that he retired from the NFL and never played in 4 games (the terms of his policy).

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - StanFan88 - 01-20-2015

I like the idea of using NFL draft evaluation as a benchmark - it largely takes subjectivity out of it because it's no longer the coach making the decision.

However, based on criteria of an NFL draft evaluation neither Baldwin nor Sherman would have been offered loss-of-value insurance after their third years.  Sherman was a WR until his last season, and Harbs was ready to kick him off the team until he switched to DB (and became Mason's problem).  Remember, it's now how they did as fourth-year players that would determine this, it's how they did as third-year players.

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - stupac2 - 01-20-2015

(01-20-2015, 12:17 AM)socalstanfan1 link Wrote:Also, totally agree with Ferrari's bigger point about athletes being forced into college.  NFL and NBA need to stop using college athletics as their only farm system.  Take a lesson from baseball and hockey: offer a legitimate minor league, + a university option for student-athletes who want the college experience.  I've held that opinion for a while now.

NBA has the D-League, but no one cares about it. I don't think this is a problem the leagues alone can solve, because the real appeal of college football and basketball is the glamor/glory involved. After all, basketball players can just play in Europe or the D-League for a year and get paid if they don't want to do college, but most of the top prospects still go to Kentucky or Duke or Kansas. Even if the NFL spent billions of dollars making a new minor league, I suspect that would still end up being true of football too.

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - CTcard - 01-20-2015

(01-20-2015, 10:16 AM)stupac2 link Wrote:[quote author=socalstanfan1 link=topic=11576.msg111217#msg111217 date=1421738241]Also, totally agree with Ferrari's bigger point about athletes being forced into college.  NFL and NBA need to stop using college athletics as their only farm system.  Take a lesson from baseball and hockey: offer a legitimate minor league, + a university option for student-athletes who want the college experience.  I've held that opinion for a while now.

NBA has the D-League, but no one cares about it. I don't think this is a problem the leagues alone can solve, ...
[/quote]

There's really two problems here.

The first stupac notes. Just saying there is a minor league isn't enough to make it a practical option. I don't know how many athletes have skipped college for the D-League then became legitimate NBA players - but it can't be many I would think.
Minor league hockey and baseball are both popular because both are clearly legitimate routes the the big league. In fact, both have a reputation of providing better development than the college option. Of course this is also connected to the relative level of popularity of college hockey and baseball vs football and basketball. Solving the "problem" might kill the golden goose - which perhaps would be good overall but not what most are looking for. 

The second issue is what is the motivation/responsibility. socalstanfan states, "NFL and NBA need to stop using college athletics as their only farm system.  Take a lesson from baseball and hockey". Sure, NFL and NBA probably should do this. But, why would they? It's pretty clear that they are happy enough with their minor leagues and creating their own would cost a lot of money. And do either the NFL or the NBA have a responsibility to save our universities from themselves?

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - washingtonismoney - 01-20-2015

The college basketball system has the weight of tradition behind it -- a lot of NBA GMs/coaches are still subjected to the availability bias. (OKCs director of analytics was discussing recently how Serge Ibaka was a tough draft because they didn't know how reliable his stats were abroad...but, you know, Spain's league is surely at a higher level than college ball.)

Over the long run, however, I expect money to talk. Emanuel Mudiay, the best point guard in the upcoming draft, took a million-dollar deal to play in China as a pit stop. Getting $30k to play for a year is nice, but you can still argue college. A million dollars to play in what's probably a better preparatory environment (for the pros)? That's a really excellent deal.

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - CTcard - 01-20-2015

(01-19-2015, 04:44 PM)Redrum link Wrote:but it was a sharp move on Kelly's part. 

Just wondering what in particular you cannot see Shaw doing?

Pushing to have Stanford pay for an insurance policy?
Putting on a full court press to have player return to school?
Counsel players with NFL options?
Arrange for other university employees to be involved in said counseling?

[I could see Shaw doing all but the second option.]

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - BostonCard - 01-20-2015

(01-20-2015, 08:12 AM)AtlantaBadger link Wrote:Boston Card cites an interesting factoid about no college player ever collecting on loss of value insurance.  I don't know whether or not that is true but I believe it.  We have been asked about that with Henry, but I think the insurance is just a ripoff unless[b][/b] you are an Andrew Luck or a John Elway or [pick your favorite consensus, no-doubt No. 1 pick].  The problem is, unless you are THE unanimous No. 1 pick (or even clear top 5 pick), how do you prove damages?  The amount you would presumably collect under the policy would be the difference between what you would have been paid if fully healthy minus the amount you actually were paid as the lower draft pick. 

Speaking as one who frequently deals with insurance in my line of work, good luck proving that number.  You would need one or more experts [for example, a real NFL GM] to testify under oath that had you been fully healthy, our team would have picked you in the first round with our pick, but since you were hurt you dropped to the fourth round, or whatever.  Sounds easy, but I doubt you could find an actual GM to swear under oath that, by God, player X was definitely our first round pick, but for the injury.  It is NEVER that easy, again, unless you are talking about the extremely small handful of players, like Andrew Luck for example, about whom you probably actually could get a GM to testify about that. 

For a player like Henry, the insurance made zero sense, because his draft position was certainly not the sure-fire top 5 pick (particularly at the end of the 2013 season when he had been injured part of the year), and so measuring the "drop" would be virtually impossible.  When colleges like ND or anyone else pay for  the insurance, (a) I assume they probably get it cheaper than what the individual would pay, and (b) it is worth every penny if they get a valuable veteran player to stay on one more year.  It is basically window dressing that conveys to the player that the school really cares about you and we don't want your decision to stay to result in you making less down the road.  But it is not altruistic.

Eric

Thanks for sharing your family's experience.  FYI, Henry was picked as one of the season's best players in the Pac-12 by ESPN: http://espn.go.com/blog/pac12/post/_/id/83421/seasons-best-pac-12-players-nos-16-20.  Nice accolade.

The factoid comes from this article:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2014/story/_/id/10851039/teddy-bridgewater-5m-loss-value-policy

It offers some nice insight into how the process works:

Quote:Because loss-of-value insurance is connected to an injury policy, the only way an athlete can collect from falling in the draft is if it's as a result of getting hurt or being ill.

When Bridgewater bought the loss-of-value policy for less than $20,000, he was projected to be the No. 3 pick in the draft, and a source with knowledge of the policy said he will start to collect money if he falls out of the top 11.

With each drop in draft slot after that, Bridgewater will pick up hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The actual loss of value between being picked No. 3 in this year's draft versus No. 33, the first pick in the second round, is about $15 million. But if Bridgewater can prove that his slip had to do an injury or illness, the policy will result in him getting $5 million back.

It looks like the insurance runs about $4,000 per $1 million in lost salary, and can only be collected in conjunction with a disability policy.  Presumably, someone taking out the insurance would have to be worth more than the value of the insurance (so you are right, it makes sense mostly for first round players).  I'm not sure what the metric is to determine value, but it must be possible to have a football appraisal.

BC

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - socalstanfan1 - 01-20-2015

(01-20-2015, 10:16 AM)stupac2 link Wrote:[quote author=socalstanfan1 link=topic=11576.msg111217#msg111217 date=1421738241]Also, totally agree with Ferrari's bigger point about athletes being forced into college.  NFL and NBA need to stop using college athletics as their only farm system.  Take a lesson from baseball and hockey: offer a legitimate minor league, + a university option for student-athletes who want the college experience.  I've held that opinion for a while now.

NBA has the D-League, but no one cares about it. I don't think this is a problem the leagues alone can solve, because the real appeal of college football and basketball is the glamor/glory involved. After all, basketball players can just play in Europe or the D-League for a year and get paid if they don't want to do college, but most of the top prospects still go to Kentucky or Duke or Kansas. Even if the NFL spent billions of dollars making a new minor league, I suspect that would still end up being true of football too.
[/quote]

This is why I included the adjective "legitimate." One thing that makes the DLeague less than legitimate is the current stipulation that the NBA cannot draft players directly from HS, combined with the willingness of many universities to turn a blind eye to poor academic performance. We're the NBA and NFL to allow drafting of players from high school and then set up a tiered system (like hockey and baseball) in which players could earn money while working toward their goal of the NBA/NFL then I think there would be more interest. But to look at the NBA DLeague and try to make the argument that it is a legitimate farm system is not, IMO, a strong argument. In reality, it's a place to store your second round draft picks and players who have potential but are not ready for the NBA, but it isn't open to kids straight out of HS so the whole system rests on a different foundation than hockey and baseball.

And, of course "tradition" and money have a lot to do with the desire of universities to keep these sports strongly connected to colleges. But Imwould hope that academic integrity would also be a part of the university agenda, and if we look for a root cause of so much of the corruption such as the UNC Chapel Hill situation, Imthink it is rooted in a system, supported both by Univesrsities and Professional sports, that compels young athletes, many of whom have no real interest in college, to fill in a perfunctory year or three years before moving on with their goals. Give them a realistic chance to start it in a minor league. (And, by the way, I don't think that going to a foreign country with all the cultural and linguistic challenges when you are 17 or 18 years old is really a realistic option, especially when universities will just let you play and not really hold you to a high academic standard.)

I'm not pie-in-the-sky enough to believe LEGITIMATE minor leagues in these sports will happen. I'm just saying if we truly care about both the academic integrity of the Universities AND the possibilities of some of these young men, it should happen.

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - socalstanfan1 - 01-20-2015

(01-20-2015, 04:35 PM)ferrari link Wrote:Well, until recently the NBA did allow drafting HS kids and we still had illiterates in "college."  Now we just have them for one year.  This change, I suspect, was pushed by colleges, not the NBA.

BUT...drafting HS players was not accompanied by a legitimate Minot league system, so few NBA would actually draft a player unless he seemed like a cant-miss prospect (i.e. Kevin Garnett). And, for such a plan to work would require universities to actually stop admitting illiterates. The presence of a real developmental system pulls away one more justification for the relaxing of academic standards, as I assume many administrators/instructors justify their actions by saying to themselves, "well, what other option does this kid have? Who am I to stand I the way of his future?"



Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - Treefence - 01-20-2015

The article says he only gave up 1 sack all season at left tackle, going against stars like L. Williams and Henry Anderson.  Aren't both those guys interior lineman?  I know Henry Anderson is a defensive end, but in a base 3-4 the end doesn't usually go against the tackle.  And I know Leonard Williams is an interior lineman.  I guess I just found it funny that they pulled the biggest names he played against, yet he may never have lined up against them. 

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - CowboyIndian - 01-20-2015

(01-20-2015, 05:09 PM)socalstanfan1 link Wrote:...drafting HS players was not accompanied by a legitimate Minot league system,

Who wants to go to North Dakota during basketball season?

Re: For some reason, can't see Shaw doing this... - socalstanfan1 - 01-20-2015

(01-20-2015, 06:39 PM)CowboyIndian link Wrote:[quote author=socalstanfan1 link=topic=11576.msg111289#msg111289 date=1421798988]
...drafting HS players was not accompanied by a legitimate Minot league system,

Who wants to go to North Dakota during basketball season?
[/quote]

Curses CI! Turning my auto correct flub into humor!  ;D