The CardBoard
SATs then & now - Printable Version

+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: SATs then & now (/thread-9381.html)


SATs then & now - yvonne - 06-25-2015

I just took the verbal part of the SAT test as part of preparation to work at a test prep center. The tests are now called reading comprehension and writing. I took only the objective portions, and did not write an essay. The writing portion includes the "spot the error" section from the Test of Standard Written English, which was administered but was given a third score and lesser rating when I took the test in the late 70s. (Much to my chagrin. I scored 100 percent on that portion, and neither of the other sections.) The spot the error portion did seem much easier than the TSWE, however, as the latter tested for more types of errors, such as word agreement and usage.

I think it's considerably easier. Gone are both the antonyms and the analogies. None of the vocabulary is tested out of context. Students don't spend their time memorizing word lists. Frankly, the vocabulary in the reading comprehension section isn't that difficult, either.

Next year, the fill-in-the black blank vocabulary portion is going to be removed.


Re: SATs then & now - socalstanfan1 - 06-25-2015

I've looked at the sample exam the College Board has released for the revised SAT, beginning next year.  The verbal section was all, essentially, reading comprehension and text analysis.  (Read a passage, answer the following 2-3 questions based on that passage).  Teaching abroad, in China, this is seen as making the exam more challenging for foreign students. 


I know a lot of students in Asia are now considering the ACT option, taking practice exams of both the SAT and ACT to see which works better for them, though I have read that the changes will actually make the exams more similar, in some ways.  I know ACT has been gaining ground on the SAT of the past few years, and as of 2012 had passed the SAT in number of students taking the exam. (Maybe the big reason for changes in the SAT)

Re: SATs then & now - JJJ - 06-25-2015

I'm not sure why, but it seems women tend to score better on the ACT than the SAT, at least in recent history. Confirmed when they take both. For what that is worth.

Re: SATs then & now - yvonne - 06-25-2015

(06-25-2015, 04:44 PM)socalstanfan1 link Wrote:I've looked at the sample exam the College Board has released for the revised SAT, beginning next year.  The verbal section was all, essentially, reading comprehension and text analysis.  (Read a passage, answer the following 2-3 questions based on that passage).  Teaching abroad, in China, this is seen as making the exam more challenging for foreign students. 

That may be true. One of the sections required choosing one of five methods of stating a portion of a sentence. Some of those options didn't even sound like anything a native speaker would say.

Re: SATs then & now - CowboyIndian - 06-25-2015

(06-25-2015, 04:06 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:the fill-in-the black vocabulary portion is going to be removed.


As it should be. Redundant.



Re: SATs then & now - washingtonismoney - 06-25-2015

(06-25-2015, 04:06 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:Next year, the fill-in-the black vocabulary portion is going to be removed.


Really sad we're devaluing AAVE, with its rich contributions to pop culture and all.

Re: SATs then & now - socalstanfan1 - 06-25-2015

Yeah, the entire English language section of the Chinese college entrance exam is that way.  Multiple Choice grammar questions with attention to such minute detail to which native English speakers never pay attention (and are, frankly, useless.)  But most students going abroad opt out of the college entrance exam, and instead take the SAT or ACT. 


Private cram schools here literally have books filled with old SAT exams, and will send test-takers to different parts of the exams to get a look at the particular exam for a given year, attempting to memorize certain questions to add to the test bank.  Then, a lot of students basically sit around trying to memorize nearly every question/answer in the book, knowing that the College Board draws from the same massive bank of questions.  Crazy. 


I know some of my students talk about how much reading through a full paragraph of text slows them down, making it more difficult to get through the section.  And some of the questions in the newer format require a more subtle understanding of the language.  The question I recall presented the Gettysburg Address, and asked about the different ways in which Lincoln used the word "dedicate" through the address.  I'm guessing a lot of very solid ESL students would have a hard time picking up some of the nuances.


I don't if, in the long run, the new format will have any impact on the rampant cheating and gaming the system that is going on. But in the short run its a whole new bank of questions.

Re: SATs then & now - PrinceLightfoot - 06-26-2015

I do not consider myself as an ESL individual, but I remember being extremely frustrated with the word analogies and the verbal section in general. My parents from another country just did not have a deep vocabulary or proper sentence structure and neither did my friends who had very similar backgrounds. My brothers and I would read fiction books in elementary by JRR Tolkien or Piers Anthony that would introduce new words, but nothing too difficult to understand.

Consequently, my lexicon was limited until high school when I finally was exposed to literature that used words that were completely foreign to my understanding. Reading comprehension was also slowed because things were written in a way that was unfamiliar to my understanding of English grammar and sentence formation. I ended up scoring a 580 on the verbal section which I think was accurate because I did struggle at Stanford my freshman year with classes that required plenty of reading (thankfully, I almost aced the math portion which probably solidified my admission); no test prep and only took it one time which was not wise.

A large portion of the assigned reading in CIV was either written in a dated form of English or written by an academic whose writing style was so high-minded that it took three or four times to read a passage just to grasp a vague idea of its meaning. Understanding this type of writing eventually arrived later my sophomore year....practice and exposure I suppose.

Linked below is an op-ed I read last year concerning changes in the SAT. I took a practice exam just to check it out and only missed one question in the writing section. Yes, it is painfully easy compared to the test I took in the early 1990s.

http://nypost.com/2014/03/11/college-board-has-made-sat-even-easier-again/


Re: SATs then & now - yvonne - 06-26-2015

(06-25-2015, 08:45 PM)socalstanfan1 link Wrote:Yeah, the entire English language section of the Chinese college entrance exam is that way.  Multiple Choice grammar questions with attention to such minute detail to which native English speakers never pay attention (and are, frankly, useless.)  But most students going abroad opt out of the college entrance exam, and instead take the SAT or ACT. 
Sorry, I meant the opposite. Many of the options in the grammar section don't sound right to the native speaker's ear.

Re: SATs then & now - 81alum - 06-28-2015

The scariest thing about the SAT is that it measures something that actually seems to have no statistical relation to college success, and yet it is used to make a decision that alters lives.  It is hard to find good quality (independent) statistical analysis of the utility of the SAT, but the several studies I have seen over the decades that follow up the success of students in college and compare it to their SAT scores before college all agree on one thing:  the SAT score has no statistically significant correlation with any kind of college success: graduation rates, college GPAs, retention rates, etc.

(High school GPA, by the way, does turn out to have a fairly significant correlation--even when considering students from high schools with vastly different levels of rigor.  Why?  The best hypothesis is that GPA does not measure intelligence or learning so much as it measures self-discipline.  A high GPA in high school shows a student who turns in assignments on time, does all the work, isn't truant, and knows how to cram for exams.  It is a little sad, but those qualities seem to be more important than having a brilliant mind when it comes to college success--at least the way college is typically taught.)

But even high school GPA is eclipsed by the greatest predictor of college success:  Social Economic Status (SES) of parents.  It has a high correlation with SAT scores.  Since the SAT indirectly measures SES, of course it predicts college success--but if you control for SES when running SAT scores through a regression you will get nearly random results.  That is, if you take two white boys from Saratoga California whose fathers and mothers all have advanced degrees and whose families make more than $300k, the difference in SAT scores between them will have no predictive value over which of the two will be most successful in college.

Now, my question is whether all the SAT changes that some say are "dumbing it down" will actually make it better or worse at predicting college success.  On the one hand, I am all for changes that remove the influence of SES from the scores.  However, I think it is possible that if they really succeed in doing this, they will be left with a test that measures nothing at all, because the entire concept of a test that can fairly and accurately predict college success is spurious. 



Re: SATs then & now - CTcard - 06-29-2015

(06-28-2015, 09:38 PM)81alum link Wrote:...  the SAT score has no statistically significant correlation with any kind of college success: graduation rates, college GPAs, retention rates, etc.

...
But even high school GPA is eclipsed by the greatest predictor of college success:  Social Economic Status (SES) of parents.  It has a high correlation with SAT scores. 


There are a TON of studies comparing SAT scores to just about everything under the sun; it's rather a cottage industry - or perhaps something bigger than a cottage. While there is no lack of data, there is a lack of consensus about just what the SAT ought to be measuring.  And as far as I can tell, among people writing opinion pieces a lack of reading peer-reviewed literature.

I am not sure where the balance of the evidence points, but there are many well known, statistically large studies, that find strong correlations between success on the SAT and first year GPA, four-year GPA, future salary, ... - I believe with a general trend of the correlation getting somewhat weaker as the timeline grows.

Here are two such studies I have had occasion to look at lately:

From the University of Minnesota, published in Psychological Science: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/23/9/1000.abstract
The SAT has a stronger record of predicting "subsequent academic success" than do HS grades, predicts first-year college GPA at about the same rate as HS GPAs (though both together is better), and is only weakly affected by SES.

From Michigan State, published in the Journal of Applied Psychology : http://iopsych.msu.edu/cbstudy/JAP_2007_Schmitt_etal.pdf (and references noted at the start of that paper).
Total college GPA is strongly correlated to SAT/ACT scores.



While it is important to remember that the SAT (and any single test) is far from perfect, it's also useful to remember why it was created. It was created in order to 1) provide objective evidence that academic talent was not restricted to rich chilldren of Ivy league graduates, and 2) to address test biases  based on socio-economic status. It is ironic that it is upon these goals in particular that it is now criticized. There are certainly problems with regards to these kinds of fairness issues, but there is a significant problem in finding anything better, particularly something that doesn't open a range of other problems. 

Purely relying upon HS GPA, or better class rank, would tend to broaden the economic status of a student body as long as our high schools remain segregated along economic lines. To some extent that has been the Univ. of Texas answer to being banned from considering race in admissions. However, it is also pretty clear that nobody is comfortable merely taking all HS GPAs at face value, and one you adjust HS GPAs for curriculum and rigor this will go back to benefiting kids at well off schools versus those at poor public schools.

The Stanford/Ivy approach of having a completely subjective evaluation of applicants based upon the maximum available information strikes me as the best approach for Stanford, but it has some obvious problems that are aggravated when implemented more widely. The time and cost of such an evaluation process is prohibitive for large public schools. It also opens the door for any kind of bias present in the evaluators - conscious or unconscious. It is clear that state legislators are are unwilling to allow for the possibility of such bias, particularly if it might be wielded against whomever is applying the most political pressure on them.

The good news is that with a ton of universities in the USA, there is lots of experimentation with admissions policies. If some particular process becomes an obvious winner, it will be widely adopted.



Re: SATs then & now - 81alum - 06-29-2015

Yes, the evidence has been fiercely debated for decades.  Here is a link to a 2014 PBS story that links a very good BATEs study:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/nail-biting-standardized-testing-may-miss-mark-college-students/

If you look at the BATEs study you will find a pretty good bibliography to other information as well.  The BATES study was a little different--since SAT scores were optional in its admissions, it compared college success among those who did and those who did not submit SAT scores.  For those who did not submit SAT scores, GPA was the predominant academic measure. 

Quote:“The evidence of the study clearly shows that high school GPA matters. Four-year, long-term evidence of self-discipline, intellectual curiosity and hard work; that’s what matters the most. After that, I would say evidence that someone has interests that they have brought to a higher level, from a soccer goalie to a debater to a servant in a community to a linguist. We need to see evidence that the student can bring something to a high level of skill,” Hiss said.According to the data, if high school grades are not high, good testing does not promise college success. Students with good grades and modest testing did better in college than students with higher testing and lower high school grades.
“The human mind is simply so complex and so multifaceted and fluid, that trying to find a single measurement tool that will be reliable across the enormous populations of American students is simply a trip up a blind alley. I would never say the SATs and ACTs have no predictive value for anybody; they have predictive value for some people. We just don’t find them reliable cross populations,” says Hiss.
This part of the write-up somewhat supports your point about the history and intentions behind the SAT, but notes that times have changed:
Quote: But the dreaded test was born of good intentions.The SAT started in the 1930s as a scholarship test for Ivy League schools. Based off of an Army IQ test, it was meant to help those who came from more humble backgrounds to be noticed by prestigious schools. Many other universities followed suit.
But standardized testing may now be hurting rather than helping disenfranchised students.
The study found that non-submitting students were more likely to be minorities, women, students with Learning Differences, Pell Grant recipients and first-generation college-goers. 

By the way, there are now 850 test-optional colleges.  There are just over 3000 4 year degree granting institutions, so this is a significant minority and is growing.

Re: SATs then & now - stupac2 - 06-29-2015

Is anyone who takes the SAT as a (real) adult surprised that they find it easier than they did as a high-school student? I'd expect to find it easier (and I damn near aced the thing the first time) just because I've read a few hundred thousand words written in a much more rigorous style in the intervening decade. Really, if you take the SAT again after college and don't find it significantly easier I'd be worried.

(I know the test itself has changed a lot and many expect it to be easier ceteris paribus, but I think it's somewhat difficult to separate out the fact that most college-educated adults have a far greater facility with the English language than most teenagers.)

Re: SATs then & now - fullmetal - 06-29-2015

I read some of my college application essays while cleaning out some stuff.  I was painfully pedantic...