This is a well thought-out thread on a really tragic subject.
My initial thoughts were that this swimmer really, really deserves some time at Soledad, Avenal, Coalinga, Corcoran, Folsom, or Pelican Bay with the Chuckster as a neighbor. They are still my thoughts tempered with the reality that justice isn't based on what people on social media are screaming at any particular time, and the judge and probation officer do this for a living, so....
I have no idea why Stanford released any statement other than 'this case was turned over to the appropriate judicial authority and the individual is no longer a student.' Saying you "did all we could" works on about zero levels, but I'm sure Stanford pays well for its council.
A few thoughts to what I find are particularly interesting observations and questions:
Fraternities - members thereof and the organizations themselves - often do stupid, stupid things. I know; I was in one. But eliminating fraternities is not going to solve or even begin to solve (well, maybe begin) the problem of sexual assault on campus or in society. Fraternities are not the only source of alcohol. Both of my children graduated from institutions where there are no fraternities or sororities. Sexual assault was a major problem at both places and at my son's school (USNA), sexual assault was a court-martial offense. They still had major scandals during his time there. People will get drunk with or without fraternities and sororities. And there is always a flip side. The only face I've punched in my life belonged to some Brock Turner-like lowlife whom I caught molesting one of our little sisters, who was virtually comatose on one of the patio couches. After I laid him out, a couple of us literally kicked him to the curb. That was the end of that. In retrospect we should have held him more accountable. The victim was then "airlifted" into someone's empty bed for the night and we made sure she got home OK the next morning.Â
Binge-drinking is a major problem. I have some thoughts on that (starting with a reduced drinking age), but maybe that belongs in another thread that hasn't been started yet. I never got pass-out drunk because at a certain point I would vomit first. And I haven't done that in almost 30 years, so I've sort of forgotten the lure of drinking to such an excess you can't function. How do we get that point across to middle school, high school and college age kids without basically tempting them to try? "I'll never do that again" doesn't work for Turner, even if he would admit that what he did was abhorrent.
Actually I think it might be. Along with parents raising decent human beings and having that decency reinforced by others. I don't know what my reaction, god forbid, would be if I was in that kid's father's shoes, but I can't imagine writing the letter that he did.
The culture is both good and bad. If I were in charge of a fraternity as I once was, I would instantaneously close every party to members only as a start. That is of course, very hard to do in practice.
Stanford will probably be sued for negligence, but their positions are pretty clear. Even if they enforced a dry campus (see again USNA - totally dry on paper, but problems still happen), how could they limit their liability. At some point this assault was prosecuted by the appropriate jurisdiction - Santa Clara County. Is Stanford liable for bicycles stolen while on campus?
I won't Mick's query into whether that was rape, because you would have to have been one of the two parties to know for sure. Not sure how they would come out in trial. Honestly, I think a lot of us have been in an identical situation. So much grey area. Ironically (I suppose) I just completed my one-hour of State mandated harassment training. Most of the samples they used to test us are so egregious you know they are actionable harassment claims. Everyone gets quid pro quo ('sleep with me or you are fired'). They don't do too much in the way of subtle everyday problems. I did miss one question. Apparently flirtation in the office is "inevitable". Man, I must be a total loser.
My initial thoughts were that this swimmer really, really deserves some time at Soledad, Avenal, Coalinga, Corcoran, Folsom, or Pelican Bay with the Chuckster as a neighbor. They are still my thoughts tempered with the reality that justice isn't based on what people on social media are screaming at any particular time, and the judge and probation officer do this for a living, so....
I have no idea why Stanford released any statement other than 'this case was turned over to the appropriate judicial authority and the individual is no longer a student.' Saying you "did all we could" works on about zero levels, but I'm sure Stanford pays well for its council.
A few thoughts to what I find are particularly interesting observations and questions:
Quote:While doing everything apparently includes purging Turner's name from the 2014-2015 Stanford University swim roster, it does not include eliminating what all-too-often provides young male students with the means and opportunity to commit the crime of sexual assault -- fraternities that throw parties at which consumption of alcohol is a major emphasis.Â
Fraternities - members thereof and the organizations themselves - often do stupid, stupid things. I know; I was in one. But eliminating fraternities is not going to solve or even begin to solve (well, maybe begin) the problem of sexual assault on campus or in society. Fraternities are not the only source of alcohol. Both of my children graduated from institutions where there are no fraternities or sororities. Sexual assault was a major problem at both places and at my son's school (USNA), sexual assault was a court-martial offense. They still had major scandals during his time there. People will get drunk with or without fraternities and sororities. And there is always a flip side. The only face I've punched in my life belonged to some Brock Turner-like lowlife whom I caught molesting one of our little sisters, who was virtually comatose on one of the patio couches. After I laid him out, a couple of us literally kicked him to the curb. That was the end of that. In retrospect we should have held him more accountable. The victim was then "airlifted" into someone's empty bed for the night and we made sure she got home OK the next morning.Â
Binge-drinking is a major problem. I have some thoughts on that (starting with a reduced drinking age), but maybe that belongs in another thread that hasn't been started yet. I never got pass-out drunk because at a certain point I would vomit first. And I haven't done that in almost 30 years, so I've sort of forgotten the lure of drinking to such an excess you can't function. How do we get that point across to middle school, high school and college age kids without basically tempting them to try? "I'll never do that again" doesn't work for Turner, even if he would admit that what he did was abhorrent.
Quote:I think we all can agree using America's criminal justice system to prosecute campus-based sexual assaults is not the best way to permanently reduce violence against women.
Actually I think it might be. Along with parents raising decent human beings and having that decency reinforced by others. I don't know what my reaction, god forbid, would be if I was in that kid's father's shoes, but I can't imagine writing the letter that he did.
Quote:Institutional stepping to the plate about the deleterious effects of fraternity culture seems in order.Â
The culture is both good and bad. If I were in charge of a fraternity as I once was, I would instantaneously close every party to members only as a start. That is of course, very hard to do in practice.
Quote:There is a lot of posting about how Stanford is negligent with out making it clear what Stanford does and does not do today. That information would make it a lot easier to think about and judge Stanford's positions on these issues.
Stanford will probably be sued for negligence, but their positions are pretty clear. Even if they enforced a dry campus (see again USNA - totally dry on paper, but problems still happen), how could they limit their liability. At some point this assault was prosecuted by the appropriate jurisdiction - Santa Clara County. Is Stanford liable for bicycles stolen while on campus?
I won't Mick's query into whether that was rape, because you would have to have been one of the two parties to know for sure. Not sure how they would come out in trial. Honestly, I think a lot of us have been in an identical situation. So much grey area. Ironically (I suppose) I just completed my one-hour of State mandated harassment training. Most of the samples they used to test us are so egregious you know they are actionable harassment claims. Everyone gets quid pro quo ('sleep with me or you are fired'). They don't do too much in the way of subtle everyday problems. I did miss one question. Apparently flirtation in the office is "inevitable". Man, I must be a total loser.
Yeah, I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working .I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work. Peter Gibbons
