[washingtonismoney]

Big loss, he's been balling when healthy this year: https://twitter.com/stanfordfball/status...7603313664

[washingtonismoney]

Big loss, he's been balling when healthy this year: https://twitter.com/stanfordfball/status...7603313664

[Hurlburt88]

I am so eager to see if my optimism in the offensive line is real or biased fandom, and see if the passing game can stabilize with KJ as clear starter despite JJAW being out

[Hurlburt88]

I am so eager to see if my optimism in the offensive line is real or biased fandom, and see if the passing game can stabilize with KJ as clear starter despite JJAW being out

[OutsiderFan]

Shawvitagren will do what they do, but I remain convinced the best way to beat Utah is to play-action pass them to death early and then run on them after.  Hopefully such play action passes will include roll-outs that get the ball to the TE corps too.  And man would it be nice to get Love involved as a receiver.

Irwin, Stewart, and Wedington are all capable of being productive if they get opportunities.

On a related note, is it safe to assume Osiris St. Brown is redshirting?

[OutsiderFan]

Shawvitagren will do what they do, but I remain convinced the best way to beat Utah is to play-action pass them to death early and then run on them after.  Hopefully such play action passes will include roll-outs that get the ball to the TE corps too.  And man would it be nice to get Love involved as a receiver.

Irwin, Stewart, and Wedington are all capable of being productive if they get opportunities.

On a related note, is it safe to assume Osiris St. Brown is redshirting?

[JohnR34231]

I am so eager to see if my optimism in the offensive line is real or biased fandom, and see if the passing game can stabilize with KJ as clear starter despite JJAW being out

I would think getting Big Island back and having Walker Little with one more game of experience under his belt will certainly help.

I would also think that, assuming Costello starts, Shaw will want to settle him down on his first road game against what will no doubt be a noisy, boisterous crowd, so I doubt if we come out throwing a lot.

[JohnR34231]

I am so eager to see if my optimism in the offensive line is real or biased fandom, and see if the passing game can stabilize with KJ as clear starter despite JJAW being out

I would think getting Big Island back and having Walker Little with one more game of experience under his belt will certainly help.

I would also think that, assuming Costello starts, Shaw will want to settle him down on his first road game against what will no doubt be a noisy, boisterous crowd, so I doubt if we come out throwing a lot.

[ChicagoCard]

Opportunity to incorporate Stewart and Parkinson more involved.

[ChicagoCard]

Opportunity to incorporate Stewart and Parkinson more involved.

[Goose]

I would also think that, assuming Costello starts, Shaw will want to settle him down on his first road game against what will no doubt be a noisy, boisterous crowd, so I doubt if we come out throwing a lot.

I am not so sure that he won't go reverse psychology. Whoever starts, Shaw might want to establish from the start that we will pass, so don't stack the box. Nice, safe, 5 yard throws to Irwin or a tight end may be dialed up. This settles the QB while planting the seed of doubt in the defense. Also, better to get your feet wet on 1st and 10 instead of 3rd and 7.  :)

[Goose]

I would also think that, assuming Costello starts, Shaw will want to settle him down on his first road game against what will no doubt be a noisy, boisterous crowd, so I doubt if we come out throwing a lot.

I am not so sure that he won't go reverse psychology. Whoever starts, Shaw might want to establish from the start that we will pass, so don't stack the box. Nice, safe, 5 yard throws to Irwin or a tight end may be dialed up. This settles the QB while planting the seed of doubt in the defense. Also, better to get your feet wet on 1st and 10 instead of 3rd and 7.  :)

[csfoster]

A big loss but still expect to win.

[csfoster]

A big loss but still expect to win.

[BostonCard]

Shawvitagren will do what they do, but I remain convinced the best way to beat Utah is to play-action pass them to death early and then run on them after.  Hopefully such play action passes will include roll-outs that get the ball to the TE corps too.  And man would it be nice to get Love involved as a receiver.

Irwin, Stewart, and Wedington are all capable of being productive if they get opportunities.

On a related note, is it safe to assume Osiris St. Brown is redshirting?

Did you not see the play action pass where Costello ran it in for the touchdown?  that is the play you want, and it was only successful because of a great individual play by Costello, and a devastating block (and perhaps uncalled hold) by Love.  It was meant to be a pass by Costello, either to the fullback or to Schultz.  But Schultz was left to be a blocker, and there were five defenders defending against two targets.

The problem with a rollout is that largely , you are limiting your game to one half of the field.  IF the defense bites on the play action, that can be reasonably favorable, but if not, you are screwed.  And when you have a good run defending team, usually their safeties will not crash the line of scrimmage, and defending the rollout will be relatively easy.

BC

[BostonCard]

Shawvitagren will do what they do, but I remain convinced the best way to beat Utah is to play-action pass them to death early and then run on them after.  Hopefully such play action passes will include roll-outs that get the ball to the TE corps too.  And man would it be nice to get Love involved as a receiver.

Irwin, Stewart, and Wedington are all capable of being productive if they get opportunities.

On a related note, is it safe to assume Osiris St. Brown is redshirting?

Did you not see the play action pass where Costello ran it in for the touchdown?  that is the play you want, and it was only successful because of a great individual play by Costello, and a devastating block (and perhaps uncalled hold) by Love.  It was meant to be a pass by Costello, either to the fullback or to Schultz.  But Schultz was left to be a blocker, and there were five defenders defending against two targets.

The problem with a rollout is that largely , you are limiting your game to one half of the field.  IF the defense bites on the play action, that can be reasonably favorable, but if not, you are screwed.  And when you have a good run defending team, usually their safeties will not crash the line of scrimmage, and defending the rollout will be relatively easy.

BC

[Goose]

The problem with a rollout is that largely , you are limiting your game to one half of the field.  IF the defense bites on the play action, that can be reasonably favorable, but if not, you are screwed.  And when you have a good run defending team, usually their safeties will not crash the line of scrimmage, and defending the rollout will be relatively easy.

BC

Absolutely correct. It is very difficult to stop and throw back the other way, and often when the QB trys, you get an under-thrown ball that is intercepted.  It is also true that Costello is basically playing on one half of the field even when he doesn't roll out. They have simplified things for him more than a bit. That is fine, but we all should be aware of that. It is a handicap against a good defense.

[Goose]

The problem with a rollout is that largely , you are limiting your game to one half of the field.  IF the defense bites on the play action, that can be reasonably favorable, but if not, you are screwed.  And when you have a good run defending team, usually their safeties will not crash the line of scrimmage, and defending the rollout will be relatively easy.

BC

Absolutely correct. It is very difficult to stop and throw back the other way, and often when the QB trys, you get an under-thrown ball that is intercepted.  It is also true that Costello is basically playing on one half of the field even when he doesn't roll out. They have simplified things for him more than a bit. That is fine, but we all should be aware of that. It is a handicap against a good defense.

[BostonCard]

Absolutely correct. It is very difficult to stop and throw back the other way, and often when the QB trys, you get an under-thrown ball that is intercepted.  It is also true that Costello is basically playing on one half of the field even when he doesn't roll out. They have simplified things for him more than a bit. That is fine, but we all should be aware of that. It is a handicap against a good defense.

Add, even though Costello might "basically be playing on one half of the field", the defense still has to defend both halves.  In rollouts, that is less important, unless you have a QB like Luck or Rosen who has a strong enough arm to throw against the grain.

BC

[BostonCard]

Absolutely correct. It is very difficult to stop and throw back the other way, and often when the QB trys, you get an under-thrown ball that is intercepted.  It is also true that Costello is basically playing on one half of the field even when he doesn't roll out. They have simplified things for him more than a bit. That is fine, but we all should be aware of that. It is a handicap against a good defense.

Add, even though Costello might "basically be playing on one half of the field", the defense still has to defend both halves.  In rollouts, that is less important, unless you have a QB like Luck or Rosen who has a strong enough arm to throw against the grain.

BC

[Goose]

Add, even though Costello might "basically be playing on one half of the field", the defense still has to defend both halves.  In rollouts, that is less important, unless you have a QB like Luck or Rosen who has a strong enough arm to throw against the grain.

BC

It is for sure true that on non-rollouts, the defense has to defend both sides of the field. However, we used a lot of two-man patterns on one side of the field against both ASU and UCLA. We were often using one tight end as a blocker. We also used a fair number of quick developing plays where the third receiver, when present, was not even looked at. That means that coverage mistakes by the defense on that receiver don't matter.
As far as roll-out and throw back, there is one definitive example. Elway did it all the time, often without really setting his feet.

[Goose]

Add, even though Costello might "basically be playing on one half of the field", the defense still has to defend both halves.  In rollouts, that is less important, unless you have a QB like Luck or Rosen who has a strong enough arm to throw against the grain.

BC

It is for sure true that on non-rollouts, the defense has to defend both sides of the field. However, we used a lot of two-man patterns on one side of the field against both ASU and UCLA. We were often using one tight end as a blocker. We also used a fair number of quick developing plays where the third receiver, when present, was not even looked at. That means that coverage mistakes by the defense on that receiver don't matter.
As far as roll-out and throw back, there is one definitive example. Elway did it all the time, often without really setting his feet.

[JohnR34231]

[quote author=JPRI link=topic=17592.msg204360#msg204360 date=1507302530]
I would also think that, assuming Costello starts, Shaw will want to settle him down on his first road game against what will no doubt be a noisy, boisterous crowd, so I doubt if we come out throwing a lot.

I am not so sure that he won't go reverse psychology. Whoever starts, Shaw might want to establish from the start that we will pass, so don't stack the box. Nice, safe, 5 yard throws to Irwin or a tight end may be dialed up. This settles the QB while planting the seed of doubt in the defense. Also, better to get your feet wet on 1st and 10 instead of 3rd and 7.  :)
[/quote]

If that's going to be the plan, maybe it is better for Chryst to start, given his experience.
Also, he has got to throw the ball better than he did against SDSU. I mean, doesn't he?

[JohnR34231]

[quote author=JPRI link=topic=17592.msg204360#msg204360 date=1507302530]
I would also think that, assuming Costello starts, Shaw will want to settle him down on his first road game against what will no doubt be a noisy, boisterous crowd, so I doubt if we come out throwing a lot.

I am not so sure that he won't go reverse psychology. Whoever starts, Shaw might want to establish from the start that we will pass, so don't stack the box. Nice, safe, 5 yard throws to Irwin or a tight end may be dialed up. This settles the QB while planting the seed of doubt in the defense. Also, better to get your feet wet on 1st and 10 instead of 3rd and 7.  :)
[/quote]

If that's going to be the plan, maybe it is better for Chryst to start, given his experience.
Also, he has got to throw the ball better than he did against SDSU. I mean, doesn't he?

[OutsiderFan]

Sigh...  Play-action passes are called to break heavy run tendencies, get the defense off balance and guessing as much as it is to create passing yardage gains.  Even if the passes off them are incomplete, they can help the run game.  The key is how effectively the offense can sell the post-snap run action well enough to get the defense to react to the run action. 

I have noticed several of Love's runs have actually been delayed pitches with zone blocking schemes that allow him to find the gaps in the defense.  It would be very easy to fake the delayed pitch and rollout the QB as well.  Not your traditional play-action pass, but still something that can break a tendency and create uncertainty in the defense.

[OutsiderFan]

Sigh...  Play-action passes are called to break heavy run tendencies, get the defense off balance and guessing as much as it is to create passing yardage gains.  Even if the passes off them are incomplete, they can help the run game.  The key is how effectively the offense can sell the post-snap run action well enough to get the defense to react to the run action. 

I have noticed several of Love's runs have actually been delayed pitches with zone blocking schemes that allow him to find the gaps in the defense.  It would be very easy to fake the delayed pitch and rollout the QB as well.  Not your traditional play-action pass, but still something that can break a tendency and create uncertainty in the defense.

[JohnR34231]

Sigh...  Play-action passes are called to break heavy run tendencies, get the defense off balance and guessing as much as it is to create passing yardage gains.  Even if the passes off them are incomplete, they can help the run game.  The key is how effectively the offense can sell the post-snap run action well enough to get the defense to react to the run action. 

I have noticed several of Love's runs have actually been delayed pitches with zone blocking schemes that allow him to find the gaps in the defense.  It would be very easy to fake the delayed pitch and rollout the QB as well.  Not your traditional play-action pass, but still something that can break a tendency and create uncertainty in the defense.

Well, we'll see what the offense braintrust comes up with. Whatever it is, if it doesn't work I'm sure we'll see some scathing critiques of it here tomorrow.

[JohnR34231]

Sigh...  Play-action passes are called to break heavy run tendencies, get the defense off balance and guessing as much as it is to create passing yardage gains.  Even if the passes off them are incomplete, they can help the run game.  The key is how effectively the offense can sell the post-snap run action well enough to get the defense to react to the run action. 

I have noticed several of Love's runs have actually been delayed pitches with zone blocking schemes that allow him to find the gaps in the defense.  It would be very easy to fake the delayed pitch and rollout the QB as well.  Not your traditional play-action pass, but still something that can break a tendency and create uncertainty in the defense.

Well, we'll see what the offense braintrust comes up with. Whatever it is, if it doesn't work I'm sure we'll see some scathing critiques of it here tomorrow.

[BostonCard]

If as a defense you can adequately cover play action passes even when your safeties are crashing the line of scrimmage (either because you have good cornerbacks or because the opponent’s passing game sucks), you will continue to croud the line of scrimmage.  Play action pass will only get the opponent to back off if you make them pay.  See what San Diego state did to us.

BC

[BostonCard]

If as a defense you can adequately cover play action passes even when your safeties are crashing the line of scrimmage (either because you have good cornerbacks or because the opponent’s passing game sucks), you will continue to croud the line of scrimmage.  Play action pass will only get the opponent to back off if you make them pay.  See what San Diego state did to us.

BC

[Hurlburt88]

I don't recall from last year . . . how is Chyst's deep ball? 

[Hurlburt88]

I don't recall from last year . . . how is Chyst's deep ball? 

[CTcard]

  Play action pass will only get the opponent to back off if you make them pay.

With this thread we have now hit two of the most common things fans call for when the pass-game struggles without considering the pluses and minuses.

The rollout was well covered in response. Now we have play action passing.

Play action passes can be very effective when your run game is working, but doing so has some downsides. It generally is a bad idea when your OL cannot hold back the rush. It has two particular problems in that situation.
The first is that the QB typically turns his back on the play to fake the handoff. Then he has to turn around and locate receivers and any pressure. That takes some time.
The second is that if you are really trying to sell the run, then the OL at least begins in run-block mode rather than dropping back to form a pocket. That was what led to one of the sacks versus Rice. Though I don't quite remember the details, I think a DL squeezed through the hole left by a pulling guard.

[CTcard]

  Play action pass will only get the opponent to back off if you make them pay.

With this thread we have now hit two of the most common things fans call for when the pass-game struggles without considering the pluses and minuses.

The rollout was well covered in response. Now we have play action passing.

Play action passes can be very effective when your run game is working, but doing so has some downsides. It generally is a bad idea when your OL cannot hold back the rush. It has two particular problems in that situation.
The first is that the QB typically turns his back on the play to fake the handoff. Then he has to turn around and locate receivers and any pressure. That takes some time.
The second is that if you are really trying to sell the run, then the OL at least begins in run-block mode rather than dropping back to form a pocket. That was what led to one of the sacks versus Rice. Though I don't quite remember the details, I think a DL squeezed through the hole left by a pulling guard.

[qwerty49]

Chryst rarely looks for anyone except Irwin anyway.  The fades and jump balls will now all go to Parkinson.

It's a good thing Utah's DC doesn't know this!

[qwerty49]

Chryst rarely looks for anyone except Irwin anyway.  The fades and jump balls will now all go to Parkinson.

It's a good thing Utah's DC doesn't know this!

[OutsiderFan]

[quote author=Boston Card link=topic=17592.msg204530#msg204530 date=1507395614]
  Play action pass will only get the opponent to back off if you make them pay.

With this thread we have now hit two of the most common things fans call for when the pass-game struggles without considering the pluses and minuses.

The rollout was well covered in response. Now we have play action passing.
[/quote]

I'm not advocating starting the game play-action passing because the passing game is struggling.  That's not even in my consciousness.  I'm looking at it exactly as I said, to break tendencies, make the defense pay for loading up to stop the run, and to keep it off balance. 

After you're RB has just set a school single game rushing record, the defense will be expecting run, so that's why I say use play-action passes and possible rollouts off run fakes to start the game.  The "if you use play-action pass plays your OL won't form a pocket to protect the passer" take is a little misplaced in this context. 

[OutsiderFan]

[quote author=Boston Card link=topic=17592.msg204530#msg204530 date=1507395614]
  Play action pass will only get the opponent to back off if you make them pay.

With this thread we have now hit two of the most common things fans call for when the pass-game struggles without considering the pluses and minuses.

The rollout was well covered in response. Now we have play action passing.
[/quote]

I'm not advocating starting the game play-action passing because the passing game is struggling.  That's not even in my consciousness.  I'm looking at it exactly as I said, to break tendencies, make the defense pay for loading up to stop the run, and to keep it off balance. 

After you're RB has just set a school single game rushing record, the defense will be expecting run, so that's why I say use play-action passes and possible rollouts off run fakes to start the game.  The "if you use play-action pass plays your OL won't form a pocket to protect the passer" take is a little misplaced in this context. 

[Goose]

Stanford's OL has shown an ability to move the pocket successfully. That can be used against a good pass rushing team. With Costello, we saw this quite often. It may be that the OL just mastered the technology and we will see it with Chryst. If so, it could be a bit of a "game changer". With more time, he could hit some long stuff.

[Goose]

Stanford's OL has shown an ability to move the pocket successfully. That can be used against a good pass rushing team. With Costello, we saw this quite often. It may be that the OL just mastered the technology and we will see it with Chryst. If so, it could be a bit of a "game changer". With more time, he could hit some long stuff.