[stupac2]

You forgot to mention making in-game adjustments which IMnsHO has been the biggest shortcoming of the Stanford offense since Shaw has been HC. It is clearly on the OC who is sitting upstairs not on the sideline to make the observations, but it's also on the HC to accept what the OC is saying and execute when the HC is calling plays. Similar to 1, no clue how Pritchard does at this, but I am disappointed that Shaw is not looking for some fresh perspective on 1 and 1a.

You're right, that's a distinct but important aspect of the job.

I have a lot of question marks here, but I don't think this should be #2. Player development is largely on the position coaches, and with the 10th coach the OC will not have any position coaching responsibility.

If anything, I think this gives Shaw the chance to go hire the Duane Akina of QB coaches. The record on Pritchard is mixed at best.

Yes and no, the OC is still going to be responsible for working with the position coaches to teach the scheme to the players. You could say that's just #1, but I think "devising effective schemes" and "teaching scheme to the players" are separate talents.

Not really relevant here since Shaw has one the majority of the play calling and I expect that percentage to increase with a new OC.

Do we actually know this for sure? I was always under the impression it was more of a team effort. Which I think can work fine, provided everyone's on the same page and knows the role they play.

The reason I question this decision is that Pritchard is a relatively unknown quantity on much of this. When you are one of the top programs in the country - and make no mistake Stanford is just that - you should have the pick of the litter when it comes to a position like this. In addition, I think the Stanford offense is in need of a fresh perspective from outside the program. I'm genuinely disappointed in this decision. I hope Shaw makes better decisions on QB & OL coaches.

I agree, but part of the point that I was making is that I'm not sure we could really grade anyone and have any confidence at all in it. Coaches that seem like slam dunks fail all the time, and the unheralded hire can turn into a stroke of genius. Plus there's a large element of randomness, and it's impossible to run counterfactuals.

Like, for instance, I've seen people say Prichard's track record as a QB coach is mixed at best because we've had such problems with the position since Hogan graduated (I don't believe he was QB coach during Hogan's 2014 down year). But for all we know it would've been worse with someone else! It's really hard to look at results and say for sure whether things are bad are not. Which isn't to say that you can't ever hold coaches accountable, I think if a coaching staff is routinely underperforming neutral expectations (Vegas O/U wins, FPI/S&P+ projections, etc) then it's probably a sign that they're not very good and ought to be replaced. But given our situation where we routinely overperform said expectations, I'm not really sure that a shakeup is warranted.

That said, I agree with WiM that at some point bringing in new blood makes sense. And Shaw is clearly not afraid to do that with position coaches, which seem to be outside hires more often than not (has anyone gone from grad assistant to position coach besides Prichard?). Is that enough? Hell if I know. But I do know that seven seasons in I'm inclined to give Shaw the benefit of the doubt.

[stupac2]

You forgot to mention making in-game adjustments which IMnsHO has been the biggest shortcoming of the Stanford offense since Shaw has been HC. It is clearly on the OC who is sitting upstairs not on the sideline to make the observations, but it's also on the HC to accept what the OC is saying and execute when the HC is calling plays. Similar to 1, no clue how Pritchard does at this, but I am disappointed that Shaw is not looking for some fresh perspective on 1 and 1a.

You're right, that's a distinct but important aspect of the job.

I have a lot of question marks here, but I don't think this should be #2. Player development is largely on the position coaches, and with the 10th coach the OC will not have any position coaching responsibility.

If anything, I think this gives Shaw the chance to go hire the Duane Akina of QB coaches. The record on Pritchard is mixed at best.

Yes and no, the OC is still going to be responsible for working with the position coaches to teach the scheme to the players. You could say that's just #1, but I think "devising effective schemes" and "teaching scheme to the players" are separate talents.

Not really relevant here since Shaw has one the majority of the play calling and I expect that percentage to increase with a new OC.

Do we actually know this for sure? I was always under the impression it was more of a team effort. Which I think can work fine, provided everyone's on the same page and knows the role they play.

The reason I question this decision is that Pritchard is a relatively unknown quantity on much of this. When you are one of the top programs in the country - and make no mistake Stanford is just that - you should have the pick of the litter when it comes to a position like this. In addition, I think the Stanford offense is in need of a fresh perspective from outside the program. I'm genuinely disappointed in this decision. I hope Shaw makes better decisions on QB & OL coaches.

I agree, but part of the point that I was making is that I'm not sure we could really grade anyone and have any confidence at all in it. Coaches that seem like slam dunks fail all the time, and the unheralded hire can turn into a stroke of genius. Plus there's a large element of randomness, and it's impossible to run counterfactuals.

Like, for instance, I've seen people say Prichard's track record as a QB coach is mixed at best because we've had such problems with the position since Hogan graduated (I don't believe he was QB coach during Hogan's 2014 down year). But for all we know it would've been worse with someone else! It's really hard to look at results and say for sure whether things are bad are not. Which isn't to say that you can't ever hold coaches accountable, I think if a coaching staff is routinely underperforming neutral expectations (Vegas O/U wins, FPI/S&P+ projections, etc) then it's probably a sign that they're not very good and ought to be replaced. But given our situation where we routinely overperform said expectations, I'm not really sure that a shakeup is warranted.

That said, I agree with WiM that at some point bringing in new blood makes sense. And Shaw is clearly not afraid to do that with position coaches, which seem to be outside hires more often than not (has anyone gone from grad assistant to position coach besides Prichard?). Is that enough? Hell if I know. But I do know that seven seasons in I'm inclined to give Shaw the benefit of the doubt.

[needle]

Tavita pretty much completely owes his coaching career to Shaw (and both men know this). Hard to imagine Tavita would be comfortable/heard as a strong voice of disagreement, and I believe leaders need to hear those sorts of voices from time to time.

OTOH, Shaw is probably underrated by us fans in putting together/keeping a great staff. Akina, Anderson, Gould, poaching that D-Line coach from OU, Alamar...it's quite a long list, especially when you compare it with what happens at many other schools (just look at Notre Dame's parade of assistant coaches, for example).

[needle]

Tavita pretty much completely owes his coaching career to Shaw (and both men know this). Hard to imagine Tavita would be comfortable/heard as a strong voice of disagreement, and I believe leaders need to hear those sorts of voices from time to time.

OTOH, Shaw is probably underrated by us fans in putting together/keeping a great staff. Akina, Anderson, Gould, poaching that D-Line coach from OU, Alamar...it's quite a long list, especially when you compare it with what happens at many other schools (just look at Notre Dame's parade of assistant coaches, for example).

[82lsju]

Like, for instance, I've seen people say Prichard's track record as a QB coach is mixed at best because we've had such problems with the position since Hogan graduated (I don't believe he was QB coach during Hogan's 2014 down year).

The Pritchard File

Season Program Position
2010         Stanford Volunteer Assistant
2011-12 Stanford Defensive Assistant
2013         Stanford Running Backs
2014-15 Stanford Quarterbacks and Wide Receivers
2016-17 Stanford Kevin M. Hogan Quarterbacks Coach and Wide Receivers

http://www.gostanford.com/coaches.aspx?r...h=football

[82lsju]

Like, for instance, I've seen people say Prichard's track record as a QB coach is mixed at best because we've had such problems with the position since Hogan graduated (I don't believe he was QB coach during Hogan's 2014 down year).

The Pritchard File

Season Program Position
2010         Stanford Volunteer Assistant
2011-12 Stanford Defensive Assistant
2013         Stanford Running Backs
2014-15 Stanford Quarterbacks and Wide Receivers
2016-17 Stanford Kevin M. Hogan Quarterbacks Coach and Wide Receivers

http://www.gostanford.com/coaches.aspx?r...h=football

[teejers1]

"Tavita pretty much completely owes his coaching career to Shaw (and both men know this). Hard to imagine Tavita would be comfortable/heard as a strong voice of disagreement. . ."

Ya think?

As with so many O things under this regime, this hire was . . . everyone together now . . . predictable.

Why anyone - including me (although I was hoping Husak might be viewed as someone already "in the program" - entertained any notion that Shaw would hire a strong/independent voice as OC is the real mystery.  This hire completely is to form.

[teejers1]

"Tavita pretty much completely owes his coaching career to Shaw (and both men know this). Hard to imagine Tavita would be comfortable/heard as a strong voice of disagreement. . ."

Ya think?

As with so many O things under this regime, this hire was . . . everyone together now . . . predictable.

Why anyone - including me (although I was hoping Husak might be viewed as someone already "in the program" - entertained any notion that Shaw would hire a strong/independent voice as OC is the real mystery.  This hire completely is to form.

[washingtonismoney]

Bruce Feldman reporting the Pritchard elevation "expected": https://twitter.com/BruceFeldmanCFB/stat...9460963328

[washingtonismoney]

Bruce Feldman reporting the Pritchard elevation "expected": https://twitter.com/BruceFeldmanCFB/stat...9460963328

[ChicagoCard]

Bruce Feldman reporting the Pritchard elevation "expected": https://twitter.com/BruceFeldmanCFB/stat...9460963328

Have to love the first comment to Feldman's tweet: "Is this the same guy that beat USC when Stanford was a 30 point underdog?"

[ChicagoCard]

Bruce Feldman reporting the Pritchard elevation "expected": https://twitter.com/BruceFeldmanCFB/stat...9460963328

Have to love the first comment to Feldman's tweet: "Is this the same guy that beat USC when Stanford was a 30 point underdog?"

[washingtonismoney]

KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

[washingtonismoney]

KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

[Hank 91]

You could sum this up as time periods:

1) During the season, Sunday-to-Friday.
2) Spring/Fall camps.
3) Summer/winter when not with the team.
4) 3 hours on Saturday.

I've thought about this a lot. Those golden three hours are the only time we get any information that we can really evaluate, and even then it isn't always clear what we're seeing. Unless it's a choice to punt or go for it on 4th and 1, there aren't too many game decisions that we can directly trace to any one particular coach. Mostly I use this idea in conversations about David Shaw. It doesn't really matter to me that much whether he punts in a given situation or not. Much more important to me is his presence as the Face of the Program, the quality of athlete (skill and character) he recruits, and his year-to-year consistency. I'd expect the same from the offensive coordinator.

[Hank 91]

You could sum this up as time periods:

1) During the season, Sunday-to-Friday.
2) Spring/Fall camps.
3) Summer/winter when not with the team.
4) 3 hours on Saturday.

I've thought about this a lot. Those golden three hours are the only time we get any information that we can really evaluate, and even then it isn't always clear what we're seeing. Unless it's a choice to punt or go for it on 4th and 1, there aren't too many game decisions that we can directly trace to any one particular coach. Mostly I use this idea in conversations about David Shaw. It doesn't really matter to me that much whether he punts in a given situation or not. Much more important to me is his presence as the Face of the Program, the quality of athlete (skill and character) he recruits, and his year-to-year consistency. I'd expect the same from the offensive coordinator.

[stupac2]

[quote author=stupac2 link=topic=18341.msg217887#msg217887 date=1513010383]
You could sum this up as time periods:

1) During the season, Sunday-to-Friday.
2) Spring/Fall camps.
3) Summer/winter when not with the team.
4) 3 hours on Saturday.

I've thought about this a lot. Those golden three hours are the only time we get any information that we can really evaluate, and even then it isn't always clear what we're seeing. Unless it's a choice to punt or go for it on 4th and 1, there aren't too many game decisions that we can directly trace to any one particular coach. Mostly I use this idea in conversations about David Shaw. It doesn't really matter to me that much whether he punts in a given situation or not. Much more important to me is his presence as the Face of the Program, the quality of athlete (skill and character) he recruits, and his year-to-year consistency. I'd expect the same from the offensive coordinator.
[/quote]

I agree with your framing but personally I think those clear-cut situations are the most legitimate times to criticize a coach's decision-making because we have virtually all the information he does. I think that Shaw has historically been too conservative, but is getting better (off the top of my head I can't remember any time this year where I was shouting "GO FOR IT!!" and we kicked, but I may be forgetting some).

Anyway, in the grand scheme of things the fact that the program is in a state where we can argue about whether losing in the CCG and going to the Alamo Bowl is a down year says a lot about how phenomenal of a job Shaw is doing.

[stupac2]

[quote author=stupac2 link=topic=18341.msg217887#msg217887 date=1513010383]
You could sum this up as time periods:

1) During the season, Sunday-to-Friday.
2) Spring/Fall camps.
3) Summer/winter when not with the team.
4) 3 hours on Saturday.

I've thought about this a lot. Those golden three hours are the only time we get any information that we can really evaluate, and even then it isn't always clear what we're seeing. Unless it's a choice to punt or go for it on 4th and 1, there aren't too many game decisions that we can directly trace to any one particular coach. Mostly I use this idea in conversations about David Shaw. It doesn't really matter to me that much whether he punts in a given situation or not. Much more important to me is his presence as the Face of the Program, the quality of athlete (skill and character) he recruits, and his year-to-year consistency. I'd expect the same from the offensive coordinator.
[/quote]

I agree with your framing but personally I think those clear-cut situations are the most legitimate times to criticize a coach's decision-making because we have virtually all the information he does. I think that Shaw has historically been too conservative, but is getting better (off the top of my head I can't remember any time this year where I was shouting "GO FOR IT!!" and we kicked, but I may be forgetting some).

Anyway, in the grand scheme of things the fact that the program is in a state where we can argue about whether losing in the CCG and going to the Alamo Bowl is a down year says a lot about how phenomenal of a job Shaw is doing.

[FarmBoy]

KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

Link didn't work.  But it's not really a surprise that KJ would say something positive about his current coach and future coordinator.

[FarmBoy]

KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

Link didn't work.  But it's not really a surprise that KJ would say something positive about his current coach and future coordinator.

[terry]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=18341.msg217933#msg217933 date=1513024047]
KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

Link didn't work.  But it's not really a surprise that KJ would say something positive about his current coach and future coordinator.
[/quote]

I believe this must be the link -- https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940320295042162688

[terry]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=18341.msg217933#msg217933 date=1513024047]
KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

Link didn't work.  But it's not really a surprise that KJ would say something positive about his current coach and future coordinator.
[/quote]

I believe this must be the link -- https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940320295042162688

[BostonCard]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=18341.msg217933#msg217933 date=1513024047]
KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

Link didn't work.  But it's not really a surprise that KJ would say something positive about his current coach and future coordinator.
[/quote]

Sure, but he could have said nothing.

BC

[BostonCard]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=18341.msg217933#msg217933 date=1513024047]
KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

Link didn't work.  But it's not really a surprise that KJ would say something positive about his current coach and future coordinator.
[/quote]

Sure, but he could have said nothing.

BC

[washingtonismoney]

Todd Husak calls Pritchard one of the "hardest working" coaches in football: https://twitter.com/ToddHusak/status/940327303539765249

[washingtonismoney]

Todd Husak calls Pritchard one of the "hardest working" coaches in football: https://twitter.com/ToddHusak/status/940327303539765249

[BostonCard]

Todd Husak calls Pritchard one of the "hardest working" coaches in football: https://twitter.com/ToddHusak/status/940327303539765249

I can buy that; you don't get to be a an OC this quickly without hard work.  However, I caution that I have seen a lot of "hard workers" who are simply not efficient workers.  You can put in a lot of long hours, without getting much done.  Hopefully, Pritchard is both hard working and effective.

BC

[BostonCard]

Todd Husak calls Pritchard one of the "hardest working" coaches in football: https://twitter.com/ToddHusak/status/940327303539765249

I can buy that; you don't get to be a an OC this quickly without hard work.  However, I caution that I have seen a lot of "hard workers" who are simply not efficient workers.  You can put in a lot of long hours, without getting much done.  Hopefully, Pritchard is both hard working and effective.

BC

[Goose]

KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

Link isn't working for some reason.

[Goose]

KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

Link isn't working for some reason.

[washingtonismoney]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=18341.msg217933#msg217933 date=1513024047]
KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

Link isn't working for some reason.
[/quote]

terry provided the updated link: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940320295042162688

I suspect Rayburn deleted the tweet and decided to re-post an equivalent one, for whatever reason.

[washingtonismoney]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=18341.msg217933#msg217933 date=1513024047]
KJ Costello thinks Tavita's one of the best teachers he's ever had, apparently: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940316425008300033

Link isn't working for some reason.
[/quote]

terry provided the updated link: https://twitter.com/jnrayburn/status/940320295042162688

I suspect Rayburn deleted the tweet and decided to re-post an equivalent one, for whatever reason.

[CTcard]

What do you want from an offensive coordinator in college football? Here's my list:

First off, this is a good effort to think through what should be the job of an OC and what might make someone good at it or not. Certainly better than merely wailing that you love or hate a particular hire.

1) Analyze the team's collective strengths and the opponent's collective weaknesses and put the team in the best place to succeed (and the opponent in the best place to fail).

The main comment I would have on your list is that I think this is really two items.

There is a grand strategy question involving both how are you going to structure your offensive approach overall, and season by season how are you going to tweak your approach to best fit the personnel of the year. This issue primarily involves looking at your own team's situation, and only secondarily considers your opponents.

Then there is game planning. That very much takes into account the matchup of your team's strengths and weaknesses versus the opponent.

I'd say the former is the most important thing an OC does; deciding upon an identity and then making sure that there are things your team really is good at - both in terms of execution and having appropriately skilled personnel.

I'm going to reserve judgment, with cautious optimism.

I am also going to reserve judgement because I don't have enough information to have a real opinion right now. However, I'd probably characterize my view as ... cautious worry??

[CTcard]

What do you want from an offensive coordinator in college football? Here's my list:

First off, this is a good effort to think through what should be the job of an OC and what might make someone good at it or not. Certainly better than merely wailing that you love or hate a particular hire.

1) Analyze the team's collective strengths and the opponent's collective weaknesses and put the team in the best place to succeed (and the opponent in the best place to fail).

The main comment I would have on your list is that I think this is really two items.

There is a grand strategy question involving both how are you going to structure your offensive approach overall, and season by season how are you going to tweak your approach to best fit the personnel of the year. This issue primarily involves looking at your own team's situation, and only secondarily considers your opponents.

Then there is game planning. That very much takes into account the matchup of your team's strengths and weaknesses versus the opponent.

I'd say the former is the most important thing an OC does; deciding upon an identity and then making sure that there are things your team really is good at - both in terms of execution and having appropriately skilled personnel.

I'm going to reserve judgment, with cautious optimism.

I am also going to reserve judgement because I don't have enough information to have a real opinion right now. However, I'd probably characterize my view as ... cautious worry??

[CTcard]

Todd Husak calls Pritchard one of the "hardest working" coaches in football: https://twitter.com/ToddHusak/status/940327303539765249

Just by itself that doesn't really sound like much of a compliment, though as far as I can tell it was indeed meant to be so.

[CTcard]

Todd Husak calls Pritchard one of the "hardest working" coaches in football: https://twitter.com/ToddHusak/status/940327303539765249

Just by itself that doesn't really sound like much of a compliment, though as far as I can tell it was indeed meant to be so.

[washingtonismoney]

I am also going to reserve judgement because I don't have enough information to have a real opinion right now. However, I'd probably characterize my view as ... cautious worry??

I think that's right. Coaching hires are so difficult to judge that unless it's obviously good (as was, say, Duane Akina) or obviously bad, I try and reserve judgment. Not to call anyone out, but I remember OutsiderFan thinking the hire of Pete Alamar was very, very bad based on his record with the 59ers. I'm sure he had great reasons to think that way, but, as it turns out, the special teams under Alamar have been fantastic -- inarguably the most consistent unit of late. So it worked out. To do some personal accountability, I though Oregon State's hire of Gary Andersen was a great coup. Obviously that didn't exactly work out. So while I'm not a brobdingnagian fan of the hire -- I'd prefer one of those obviously good alternatives! -- I just say to myself that Shaw has a great overall record, and a solid offensive one. He gets the benefit of my doubt.

[washingtonismoney]

I am also going to reserve judgement because I don't have enough information to have a real opinion right now. However, I'd probably characterize my view as ... cautious worry??

I think that's right. Coaching hires are so difficult to judge that unless it's obviously good (as was, say, Duane Akina) or obviously bad, I try and reserve judgment. Not to call anyone out, but I remember OutsiderFan thinking the hire of Pete Alamar was very, very bad based on his record with the 59ers. I'm sure he had great reasons to think that way, but, as it turns out, the special teams under Alamar have been fantastic -- inarguably the most consistent unit of late. So it worked out. To do some personal accountability, I though Oregon State's hire of Gary Andersen was a great coup. Obviously that didn't exactly work out. So while I'm not a brobdingnagian fan of the hire -- I'd prefer one of those obviously good alternatives! -- I just say to myself that Shaw has a great overall record, and a solid offensive one. He gets the benefit of my doubt.

[CTcard]

To do some personal accountability, I though Oregon State's hire of Gary Andersen was a great coup. Obviously that didn't exactly work out.

The OSU-Gary Andersen experience was odd in many ways.

I was immediately disdainful of the hire, not because I thought Andersen was a bad coach but because I was fairly appalled that Andersen publicly stated that a main reason for going to OSU was so that he could be free to recruit worse students.

Andersen then proceeded to take an OSU team that had gone 9-4, 7-6, 5-7 to records of 2-10 and 4-8. That turn-around came with consistent media discussion of the great job he was doing rebuilding the OSU program. Wilner was a particular cheer leader. Of course that story-line finally collapsed this season.


... and for his predecessor, and kind-of successor, I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Mike Riley because he took my home town Winnipeg Blue Bombers to two Grey Cup championships in his four years there, the most since Bud Grant got 4 before heading to the Minnesota Vikings in 1967. And we've had none since.

[CTcard]

To do some personal accountability, I though Oregon State's hire of Gary Andersen was a great coup. Obviously that didn't exactly work out.

The OSU-Gary Andersen experience was odd in many ways.

I was immediately disdainful of the hire, not because I thought Andersen was a bad coach but because I was fairly appalled that Andersen publicly stated that a main reason for going to OSU was so that he could be free to recruit worse students.

Andersen then proceeded to take an OSU team that had gone 9-4, 7-6, 5-7 to records of 2-10 and 4-8. That turn-around came with consistent media discussion of the great job he was doing rebuilding the OSU program. Wilner was a particular cheer leader. Of course that story-line finally collapsed this season.


... and for his predecessor, and kind-of successor, I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Mike Riley because he took my home town Winnipeg Blue Bombers to two Grey Cup championships in his four years there, the most since Bud Grant got 4 before heading to the Minnesota Vikings in 1967. And we've had none since.