[Goose]

If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

[Goose]

If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

[winflop]

If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

I don't think you have a responsibility to play until you graduate, but I do think you have a responsibility to finish the season which is why I don't root as much for CMac as I do for other alums in the NFL.

[winflop]

If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

I don't think you have a responsibility to play until you graduate, but I do think you have a responsibility to finish the season which is why I don't root as much for CMac as I do for other alums in the NFL.

[BobK]

So the coach we should have hired just took Oregon State to the Pac 12 final beating Oregon

Wayne Tinkle was ready and of course his daughter was a star at Stanford

[BobK]

So the coach we should have hired just took Oregon State to the Pac 12 final beating Oregon

Wayne Tinkle was ready and of course his daughter was a star at Stanford

[old spanish trail]

If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

 ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Is that what happened, Goose? Is that what Rivals says?

[old spanish trail]

If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

 ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Is that what happened, Goose? Is that what Rivals says?

[martyup]

---

Is that what happened, Goose? Is that what Rivals says?

[martyup]

---

Is that what happened, Goose? Is that what Rivals says?

[BobK]

No that was t what was said on the other two boards

[BobK]

No that was t what was said on the other two boards

[Treebound]

Wow Bob! 
I didn't realize that Tinkle had played for Monty in Montana!  I'm guessing Monty gave Tinkle a solid recommendation to Muir given his Montana roots and his long legacy in the sport.   He's married to a former Lady Griz player, so this is clearly a basketball family.  We likely could have had his son on the team as well.   That was a big miss!  Instead we Haase-ta-la-vista...

[Treebound]

Wow Bob! 
I didn't realize that Tinkle had played for Monty in Montana!  I'm guessing Monty gave Tinkle a solid recommendation to Muir given his Montana roots and his long legacy in the sport.   He's married to a former Lady Griz player, so this is clearly a basketball family.  We likely could have had his son on the team as well.   That was a big miss!  Instead we Haase-ta-la-vista...

[Goose]

If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

 ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Is that what happened, Goose? Is that what Rivals says?

I don't know what Rivals said. What I do know is that the level of effort from some of the players was substandard, and that this was obvious enough that many on this board besides myself have noted it. Some guys clearly "quit" without saying so.They may have had their reasons, but my point was that if you don't feel you can give 100%, officially quit the sport, don't hang around and make a sub-par effort. It isn't fair to the rest of the team.

[Goose]

If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

 ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Is that what happened, Goose? Is that what Rivals says?

I don't know what Rivals said. What I do know is that the level of effort from some of the players was substandard, and that this was obvious enough that many on this board besides myself have noted it. Some guys clearly "quit" without saying so.They may have had their reasons, but my point was that if you don't feel you can give 100%, officially quit the sport, don't hang around and make a sub-par effort. It isn't fair to the rest of the team.

[Phogge]

How many times will he quit on his team in the NBA? Good riddance.

[Phogge]

How many times will he quit on his team in the NBA? Good riddance.

[old spanish trail]

[quote="fullmetal" pid='310207' dateline='1615598950']
If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

 ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Is that what happened, Goose? Is that what Rivals says?

I don't know what Rivals said. What I do know is that the level of effort from some of the players was substandard, and that this was obvious enough that many on this board besides myself have noted it. Some guys clearly "quit" without saying so.They may have had their reasons, but my point was that if you don't feel you can give 100%, officially quit the sport, don't hang around and make a sub-par effort. It isn't fair to the rest of the team.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Do you know if Williams "disparaged" the coach and program?

[old spanish trail]

[quote="fullmetal" pid='310207' dateline='1615598950']
If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

 ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Is that what happened, Goose? Is that what Rivals says?

I don't know what Rivals said. What I do know is that the level of effort from some of the players was substandard, and that this was obvious enough that many on this board besides myself have noted it. Some guys clearly "quit" without saying so.They may have had their reasons, but my point was that if you don't feel you can give 100%, officially quit the sport, don't hang around and make a sub-par effort. It isn't fair to the rest of the team.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Do you know if Williams "disparaged" the coach and program?

[Goose]

[quote="fullmetal" pid='310207' dateline='1615598950']
If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

 ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Is that what happened, Goose? Is that what Rivals says?

I don't know what Rivals said. What I do know is that the level of effort from some of the players was substandard, and that this was obvious enough that many on this board besides myself have noted it. Some guys clearly "quit" without saying so.They may have had their reasons, but my point was that if you don't feel you can give 100%, officially quit the sport, don't hang around and make a sub-par effort. It isn't fair to the rest of the team.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Do you know if Williams "disparaged" the coach and program?

I do not. The scenario I outlined described what I believe proper conduct would be if you believe that in some way you were "wronged". Remaining on the team but not giving your best effort is passive-aggressive. Disparaging the team and/or your teammates (privately or in public) is actively aggressive and should get you punished or dismissed from the team. Not giving your best effort is much harder to deal with because it is harder to quantify even most observers agree it is happening.
I would assume anybody who isn't giving their best effort has a problem with something in the program. If that is the case, one should either get over it or quit, IMHO. This is especially true when you don't intend to return to the program next year anyway. It also makes no sense for your behavior to be a mystery. If you have some point to make, make it and move on. If you just want to move on, fine, do so. No reason to weaken the chances of those who chose to stay by taking minutes from somebody who wants the team to succeed and is willing to do all they can to make it happen.

[Goose]

[quote="fullmetal" pid='310207' dateline='1615598950']
If Williams is a lock for first-round money, why would he risk injury in the last games of his college career?  This is the CMac Sun Bowl issue all over again.

No it isn't. CMac played the regular season. He didn't "dog it" during the games. When he decided he was done playing, he said so and left the team. If Williams wanted to not play at all for us this season, that would have been fine. That's not what he did. He agreed to play on the team. By not putting forth his full effort, he didn't keep his word. Not at all the same.

Do we fault players with promising pro futures for looking ahead?  What if Bryce Love had been drafted highly after his Voldemort run instead of coming back to Stanford and suffering from injuries behind an injured OL?

No, I don't fault players for looking ahead. If Bryce Love had gone pro and not returned for his last year, I would have been totally fine with that. I do see an argument that can be made saying that if you agree to play for Stanford you owe it to your team to do so until you graduate, but I can even get by the "graduate" part when there is lots of money at stake. What I can't ever regard  as honorable is staying on the team but not giving your best effort. It is also unacceptable to create issues among your teammates by disparaging the coaches, the program, whatever else. If you want to do that, quit the team and then say your piece.

 ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Is that what happened, Goose? Is that what Rivals says?

I don't know what Rivals said. What I do know is that the level of effort from some of the players was substandard, and that this was obvious enough that many on this board besides myself have noted it. Some guys clearly "quit" without saying so.They may have had their reasons, but my point was that if you don't feel you can give 100%, officially quit the sport, don't hang around and make a sub-par effort. It isn't fair to the rest of the team.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Do you know if Williams "disparaged" the coach and program?

I do not. The scenario I outlined described what I believe proper conduct would be if you believe that in some way you were "wronged". Remaining on the team but not giving your best effort is passive-aggressive. Disparaging the team and/or your teammates (privately or in public) is actively aggressive and should get you punished or dismissed from the team. Not giving your best effort is much harder to deal with because it is harder to quantify even most observers agree it is happening.
I would assume anybody who isn't giving their best effort has a problem with something in the program. If that is the case, one should either get over it or quit, IMHO. This is especially true when you don't intend to return to the program next year anyway. It also makes no sense for your behavior to be a mystery. If you have some point to make, make it and move on. If you just want to move on, fine, do so. No reason to weaken the chances of those who chose to stay by taking minutes from somebody who wants the team to succeed and is willing to do all they can to make it happen.

[martyup]

Beavers are dancing.  One point win over the Buffalos in the Pac-12 Championship final.

[martyup]

Beavers are dancing.  One point win over the Buffalos in the Pac-12 Championship final.

[PVTree]

It was that 5th place slot that made the difference. Stanford holds on to that 5th place (not Cougin it in Pullman), and it would have been Stanford lifting the trophy! **Then I woke up and realized it was a dream**

[PVTree]

It was that 5th place slot that made the difference. Stanford holds on to that 5th place (not Cougin it in Pullman), and it would have been Stanford lifting the trophy! **Then I woke up and realized it was a dream**

[winflop]

Wow Bob! 
I didn't realize that Tinkle had played for Monty in Montana!  I'm guessing Monty gave Tinkle a solid recommendation to Muir given his Montana roots and his long legacy in the sport.   He's married to a former Lady Griz player, so this is clearly a basketball family.  We likely could have had his son on the team as well.   That was a big miss!  Instead we Haase-ta-la-vista...

Tinkle was hired at Oregon State about two months after Stanford lost in the Sweet Sixteen. Sadly, the timing just wasn't there.

Muir's only opportunity to hire Tinkle was after the previous season, where he had an opportunity to deliver a message that making the NIT is not good enough. Instead he subjected us to four more years of mediocrity at Maples, followed by five more.

[winflop]

Wow Bob! 
I didn't realize that Tinkle had played for Monty in Montana!  I'm guessing Monty gave Tinkle a solid recommendation to Muir given his Montana roots and his long legacy in the sport.   He's married to a former Lady Griz player, so this is clearly a basketball family.  We likely could have had his son on the team as well.   That was a big miss!  Instead we Haase-ta-la-vista...

Tinkle was hired at Oregon State about two months after Stanford lost in the Sweet Sixteen. Sadly, the timing just wasn't there.

Muir's only opportunity to hire Tinkle was after the previous season, where he had an opportunity to deliver a message that making the NIT is not good enough. Instead he subjected us to four more years of mediocrity at Maples, followed by five more.

[oldalum]

 Instead he subjected us to four more years of mediocrity at Maples, followed by five more.

so he's both consistent and persistent!

[oldalum]

 Instead he subjected us to four more years of mediocrity at Maples, followed by five more.

so he's both consistent and persistent!

[BobK]

Actually the timing was perfect. Yes the year before the Sweet 16

[BobK]

Actually the timing was perfect. Yes the year before the Sweet 16

[chrisk]

The high point of the season for Stanford was the first game, an 18-point victory over the SEC regular season and conference tournament champion. Four players scored in double digits, led by Williams with 19.

[chrisk]

The high point of the season for Stanford was the first game, an 18-point victory over the SEC regular season and conference tournament champion. Four players scored in double digits, led by Williams with 19.

[UltimateCard]

I'm not sure any coach or assistant in D1 would take this job.

Wazzu hired San Francisco's Kyle Smith. If that's doable, we can clearly poach someone from a G5/lower-level D1 school purely on pay increase alone. The question is who.

FWIW, I wouldn't bother cold-calling G5 coaches as the first 2 calls I'd make would be to alums:

- Jarron Collins is in year 7 as an assistant with the Warriors. This would be very similar in timeframe to Juwan Howard's return to Michigan as HC and I would LOVE to see it happen.

- Mark Madsen's Utah Valley tied for 1st in their (very bad) conference in year 2 as HC. (I'd wait another couple years to see how he does...and unfortunately my guess is we'll have to bc I suspect JH isn't going anywhere.)

Both great ideas. Reveno also coaching but not as successful

Update: Jarron leaving Warriors
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warrio...even-years

[UltimateCard]

I'm not sure any coach or assistant in D1 would take this job.

Wazzu hired San Francisco's Kyle Smith. If that's doable, we can clearly poach someone from a G5/lower-level D1 school purely on pay increase alone. The question is who.

FWIW, I wouldn't bother cold-calling G5 coaches as the first 2 calls I'd make would be to alums:

- Jarron Collins is in year 7 as an assistant with the Warriors. This would be very similar in timeframe to Juwan Howard's return to Michigan as HC and I would LOVE to see it happen.

- Mark Madsen's Utah Valley tied for 1st in their (very bad) conference in year 2 as HC. (I'd wait another couple years to see how he does...and unfortunately my guess is we'll have to bc I suspect JH isn't going anywhere.)

Both great ideas. Reveno also coaching but not as successful

Update: Jarron leaving Warriors
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warrio...even-years

[SamuelMcF]

I doubt Jarron is happening, as much as I want it to.

[SamuelMcF]

I doubt Jarron is happening, as much as I want it to.

[BobK]

Who gets fired ? If Hasse wanted Jarron and Jarron wanted Stanford they would be together. Wasn’t that long ago we hired a coach

[BobK]

Who gets fired ? If Hasse wanted Jarron and Jarron wanted Stanford they would be together. Wasn’t that long ago we hired a coach