[81alum]

[quote author=81alum link=topic=10129.msg91444#msg91444 date=1403374732]
Particularly bizarre in that comment was the assertion that the survey was biased because it was conducted by  . . . Professor Fenelon and most of his team happen to be Native Americans. 

Not that bizarre when you add the fact that Fenelon is selling his own book (at a price of $126) on Amazon called Redskins? : Sport Mascots, Indian Nations, and White Racism.  Here is the short summary he wrote of his book:

"This book assesses the controversies over the Washington NFL team name as a window into other recent debates about the use of Native American mascots for professional and college sports teams. Fenelon explores the origin of team names in institutional racism and mainstream society s denial of the impact of four centuries of colonial conquest. Fenelon s analysis is supported by his surveys and interviews about the Redskins name and Cleveland Indians mascot Chief Wahoo. A majority of Native peoples see these mascots as racist, including the National Congress of American Indians even though mainstream media and public opinion claim otherwise. Historical analysis divulges these terms as outgrowths of savage and enemy icon racist depictions of Native nations. The book ties the history of conquest to idealized claims of democracy, freedom, and honoring sports teams."

Looks like he's got a vested interest in outcome of his self-conducted survey.
[/quote]
The book is due out in December from Paradigm.  Faculty make almost nothing from research monographs at academic presses--these are neither trade books nor textbooks.  Typically it is a couple percent of publisher's net, and these monographs often sell only 200-500 copies over several years.  1000 copies would be a "smash hit" in academia.  These monographs are not published for pecuniary interests, but primarily for circulation among colleagues with similar interests and leading research libraries. 

As for his "self conducted" survey--this is a basic research skill in sociology that virtually all graduate students would learn in their methods course.  Of course he conducted the survey himself--that is his job to gather data on important issues in sociology and publish his findings. 

All that said, to properly judge the quality of his survey we would have to know a great deal more than we do.  In particular it would be good to know the criteria that were used to include or exclude respondents as authentically Native American.  I presume all the details will be included in the book.  So let's agree to read it and then resume this thread ;)

   

[81alum]

[quote author=81alum link=topic=10129.msg91444#msg91444 date=1403374732]
Particularly bizarre in that comment was the assertion that the survey was biased because it was conducted by  . . . Professor Fenelon and most of his team happen to be Native Americans. 

Not that bizarre when you add the fact that Fenelon is selling his own book (at a price of $126) on Amazon called Redskins? : Sport Mascots, Indian Nations, and White Racism.  Here is the short summary he wrote of his book:

"This book assesses the controversies over the Washington NFL team name as a window into other recent debates about the use of Native American mascots for professional and college sports teams. Fenelon explores the origin of team names in institutional racism and mainstream society s denial of the impact of four centuries of colonial conquest. Fenelon s analysis is supported by his surveys and interviews about the Redskins name and Cleveland Indians mascot Chief Wahoo. A majority of Native peoples see these mascots as racist, including the National Congress of American Indians even though mainstream media and public opinion claim otherwise. Historical analysis divulges these terms as outgrowths of savage and enemy icon racist depictions of Native nations. The book ties the history of conquest to idealized claims of democracy, freedom, and honoring sports teams."

Looks like he's got a vested interest in outcome of his self-conducted survey.
[/quote]
The book is due out in December from Paradigm.  Faculty make almost nothing from research monographs at academic presses--these are neither trade books nor textbooks.  Typically it is a couple percent of publisher's net, and these monographs often sell only 200-500 copies over several years.  1000 copies would be a "smash hit" in academia.  These monographs are not published for pecuniary interests, but primarily for circulation among colleagues with similar interests and leading research libraries. 

As for his "self conducted" survey--this is a basic research skill in sociology that virtually all graduate students would learn in their methods course.  Of course he conducted the survey himself--that is his job to gather data on important issues in sociology and publish his findings. 

All that said, to properly judge the quality of his survey we would have to know a great deal more than we do.  In particular it would be good to know the criteria that were used to include or exclude respondents as authentically Native American.  I presume all the details will be included in the book.  So let's agree to read it and then resume this thread ;)

   

[Mick]

[quote author=81alum link=topic=10129.msg91444#msg91444 date=1403374732]
Particularly bizarre in that comment was the assertion that the survey was biased because it was conducted by  . . . Professor Fenelon and most of his team happen to be Native Americans. 

Not that bizarre when you add the fact that Fenelon is selling his own book (at a price of $126) on Amazon called Redskins? : Sport Mascots, Indian Nations, and White Racism.  Here is the short summary he wrote of his book:

This book assesses the controversies over the Washington NFL team name as a window into other recent debates about the use of Native American mascots for professional and college sports teams. Fenelon explores the origin of team names in institutional racism and mainstream society s denial of the impact of four centuries of colonial conquest. Fenelon s analysis is supported by his surveys and interviews about the Redskins name and Cleveland Indians mascot Chief Wahoo. A majority of Native peoples see these mascots as racist, including the National Congress of American Indians even though mainstream media and public opinion claim otherwise. Historical analysis divulges these terms as outgrowths of savage and enemy icon racist depictions of Native nations. The book ties the history of conquest to idealized claims of democracy, freedom, and honoring sports teams.

Looks like he's got a vested interest in outcome of his self-conducted survey.
[/quote]


Is it common for professors to conduct their own field research, to make their own phone calls or poll individuals in person?  I assume that's what you meant by "self-conducted"

[Mick]

[quote author=81alum link=topic=10129.msg91444#msg91444 date=1403374732]
Particularly bizarre in that comment was the assertion that the survey was biased because it was conducted by  . . . Professor Fenelon and most of his team happen to be Native Americans. 

Not that bizarre when you add the fact that Fenelon is selling his own book (at a price of $126) on Amazon called Redskins? : Sport Mascots, Indian Nations, and White Racism.  Here is the short summary he wrote of his book:

This book assesses the controversies over the Washington NFL team name as a window into other recent debates about the use of Native American mascots for professional and college sports teams. Fenelon explores the origin of team names in institutional racism and mainstream society s denial of the impact of four centuries of colonial conquest. Fenelon s analysis is supported by his surveys and interviews about the Redskins name and Cleveland Indians mascot Chief Wahoo. A majority of Native peoples see these mascots as racist, including the National Congress of American Indians even though mainstream media and public opinion claim otherwise. Historical analysis divulges these terms as outgrowths of savage and enemy icon racist depictions of Native nations. The book ties the history of conquest to idealized claims of democracy, freedom, and honoring sports teams.

Looks like he's got a vested interest in outcome of his self-conducted survey.
[/quote]


Is it common for professors to conduct their own field research, to make their own phone calls or poll individuals in person?  I assume that's what you meant by "self-conducted"

[CornFed]

Byron York wrote an article today in the Washington Examiner about the number of "offensive" words and names that have been trademarked.  Try your hand at this link:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=se...kkopwk.1.1

I think we're going to be very busy going through these to make sure no one is offended.

[CornFed]

Byron York wrote an article today in the Washington Examiner about the number of "offensive" words and names that have been trademarked.  Try your hand at this link:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=se...kkopwk.1.1

I think we're going to be very busy going through these to make sure no one is offended.

[Mick]

The Patent and Trademark Office is far from consistent in enforcing the rules on forbidden words.

http://www.brinksgilson.com/files/articl...e_2011.pdf

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/your-lega...rademarks/

[Mick]

The Patent and Trademark Office is far from consistent in enforcing the rules on forbidden words.

http://www.brinksgilson.com/files/articl...e_2011.pdf

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/your-lega...rademarks/

[yvonne]

Aren't these examples nothing more than an expanded tu quoque argument? Does the fact that these other examples are also offensive to specific groups lessen the offensiveness of the Washington NFL team's name?

[yvonne]

Aren't these examples nothing more than an expanded tu quoque argument? Does the fact that these other examples are also offensive to specific groups lessen the offensiveness of the Washington NFL team's name?

[washingtonismoney]

Aren't these examples nothing more than an expanded tu quoque argument? Does the fact that these other examples are also offensive to specific groups lessen the offensiveness of the Washington NFL team's name?

The other problem is that some of these may be intended as the equivalent of "Fighting Irish" -- i.e., the insulted group appropriating the insult for their own purposes -- rather than "Redskins."

[washingtonismoney]

Aren't these examples nothing more than an expanded tu quoque argument? Does the fact that these other examples are also offensive to specific groups lessen the offensiveness of the Washington NFL team's name?

The other problem is that some of these may be intended as the equivalent of "Fighting Irish" -- i.e., the insulted group appropriating the insult for their own purposes -- rather than "Redskins."

[Stymie]

Can someone help me understand why it's okay to fight for a nickname that clearly offends people?

Virtually any nickname that has any collective significance will offend somebody.  Here in 2014 I could argue that Stanford would be more attractive (to me) if they were called the "Nerds" (rather than some indistinguishable color) or even the "Trees," but the former would offend anybody who ever tried to understand the beauty of calculus and the latter would offend Prince Charles, who spends most of his time waiting for his mother to die and, in the interim, speaks to his plants.

If there is such a thing as a "slippery slope," adios Yale Bulldogs (offends PETA) and Purdue Boilermakers (offends right wing republicans)  and Georgetown Hoyas (offends whatever the hell a "Hoya" is).

Written from a Motel 6 in the homeland of the Lakota people of South Dakota.

Stymie

[Stymie]

Can someone help me understand why it's okay to fight for a nickname that clearly offends people?

Virtually any nickname that has any collective significance will offend somebody.  Here in 2014 I could argue that Stanford would be more attractive (to me) if they were called the "Nerds" (rather than some indistinguishable color) or even the "Trees," but the former would offend anybody who ever tried to understand the beauty of calculus and the latter would offend Prince Charles, who spends most of his time waiting for his mother to die and, in the interim, speaks to his plants.

If there is such a thing as a "slippery slope," adios Yale Bulldogs (offends PETA) and Purdue Boilermakers (offends right wing republicans)  and Georgetown Hoyas (offends whatever the hell a "Hoya" is).

Written from a Motel 6 in the homeland of the Lakota people of South Dakota.

Stymie

[CowboyIndian]

.... and Purdue Boilermakers (offends right wing republicans)

Not sure I get that one. I can see it offending recovering alcoholics, but I'm not sure very many Republicans are in recovery.

[CowboyIndian]

.... and Purdue Boilermakers (offends right wing republicans)

Not sure I get that one. I can see it offending recovering alcoholics, but I'm not sure very many Republicans are in recovery.

[CornFed]

Maybe because many are industrial engineers?

[CornFed]

Maybe because many are industrial engineers?

[Redrum]

Just so you don't lose your bearings in this,  take time to go here. It's free although you do pay a price in another form:  http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=18&f=1717   and scroll down.  You don't have to click on the threads if you don't want.  Just check out the tone, the volume, the repetitive repeating of drums.

Then come back,  take a shower, or at least a deep breath,  and reflect on the level of discussion in this thread.  And say a little prayer that it remain ever thus.  You have seen Hell,  take care to preserve Heaven. 

[Redrum]

Just so you don't lose your bearings in this,  take time to go here. It's free although you do pay a price in another form:  http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=18&f=1717   and scroll down.  You don't have to click on the threads if you don't want.  Just check out the tone, the volume, the repetitive repeating of drums.

Then come back,  take a shower, or at least a deep breath,  and reflect on the level of discussion in this thread.  And say a little prayer that it remain ever thus.  You have seen Hell,  take care to preserve Heaven. 

[Papa John]

I was born and raised in a state named after a Native American tribe. My high school mascot was, and is, "Indians." The name was at least in part chosen to honor a former football coach who claimed Native American ancestry. On top of that, my high school was the "Papooses."

Context matters. Should my high school retain the "Indians" mascot? I'm not sure. Indian may be an ignorant term, but I've never heard it used in an offensive way, unlike "Redskins." Same thing with tribal names, like Utes, Illini, etc. On the other hand, I have no problem if Haskell Indian Nations University wants to call itself the "Fighting Indians" or Stanford wants to call itself "Nerd Nation." Self-referencing mascots are A-OK in my book.

So, because of the complexity of this issue, I have to side with the folks who believe that, yes Dan Snyder should change the name of his team, but the trademark office overstepped its bounds.

I also thank my lucky stars that I did not go to Coachella Valley High School, where I would have  worn this PE uniform:

http://webstores.activenetwork.com/schoo...ES_PIC.jpg

[Papa John]

I was born and raised in a state named after a Native American tribe. My high school mascot was, and is, "Indians." The name was at least in part chosen to honor a former football coach who claimed Native American ancestry. On top of that, my high school was the "Papooses."

Context matters. Should my high school retain the "Indians" mascot? I'm not sure. Indian may be an ignorant term, but I've never heard it used in an offensive way, unlike "Redskins." Same thing with tribal names, like Utes, Illini, etc. On the other hand, I have no problem if Haskell Indian Nations University wants to call itself the "Fighting Indians" or Stanford wants to call itself "Nerd Nation." Self-referencing mascots are A-OK in my book.

So, because of the complexity of this issue, I have to side with the folks who believe that, yes Dan Snyder should change the name of his team, but the trademark office overstepped its bounds.

I also thank my lucky stars that I did not go to Coachella Valley High School, where I would have  worn this PE uniform:

http://webstores.activenetwork.com/schoo...ES_PIC.jpg

[CowboyIndian]

I live in the Coachella valley and yes, Indio HS has been the Arabs since the 20s.

I had a freshman dormmate and current good friend who played for the Coachella Valley Arabs.... in Coachella.

I looked it up and Indio HS athletes are the Rajahs.

[CowboyIndian]

I live in the Coachella valley and yes, Indio HS has been the Arabs since the 20s.

I had a freshman dormmate and current good friend who played for the Coachella Valley Arabs.... in Coachella.

I looked it up and Indio HS athletes are the Rajahs.

[Mick]

If there is such a thing as a "slippery slope," adios Yale Bulldogs (offends PETA) and Purdue Boilermakers (offends right wing republicans)  and Georgetown Hoyas (offends whatever the hell a "Hoya" is).

Technically speaking, G'Town's mascot is also the Bulldog.  They have a live bulldog named Handsome Dan as their mascot.  So if SEBM (Society for the Elimination of Bulldog Mascots) really screams then Yale, Georgetown, Mississippi State, Fresno State and Georgia are all SOL.  Same with McPherson, Adrian, Redlands, Ferris State, Butler, Louisiana Tech, Montana State, Minnesota-Duluth, Western Illinois, Gardner-Webb, Drake, Truman State and Bryant (said dog is named "Tupper" after founder of Tupperware).  All either have formal Bulldogs as their name mascot, or have a literal bulldog as their living mascot.

"Hoya" was the first part of a Greek/Latin chant by the G'Town fans from the 1800s, "Hoya Saxa" which, roughly translated means "What Rocks."  The Greek part was actually hoia.  They were the first college to produce a sports newspaper in 1920.  It was called "The Hoya."

[Mick]

If there is such a thing as a "slippery slope," adios Yale Bulldogs (offends PETA) and Purdue Boilermakers (offends right wing republicans)  and Georgetown Hoyas (offends whatever the hell a "Hoya" is).

Technically speaking, G'Town's mascot is also the Bulldog.  They have a live bulldog named Handsome Dan as their mascot.  So if SEBM (Society for the Elimination of Bulldog Mascots) really screams then Yale, Georgetown, Mississippi State, Fresno State and Georgia are all SOL.  Same with McPherson, Adrian, Redlands, Ferris State, Butler, Louisiana Tech, Montana State, Minnesota-Duluth, Western Illinois, Gardner-Webb, Drake, Truman State and Bryant (said dog is named "Tupper" after founder of Tupperware).  All either have formal Bulldogs as their name mascot, or have a literal bulldog as their living mascot.

"Hoya" was the first part of a Greek/Latin chant by the G'Town fans from the 1800s, "Hoya Saxa" which, roughly translated means "What Rocks."  The Greek part was actually hoia.  They were the first college to produce a sports newspaper in 1920.  It was called "The Hoya."

[CowboyIndian]

Montana State, ......  All either have formal Bulldogs as their name mascot, or have a literal bulldog as their living mascot.

Better not tell that to folks in Bozeman.

[CowboyIndian]

Montana State, ......  All either have formal Bulldogs as their name mascot, or have a literal bulldog as their living mascot.

Better not tell that to folks in Bozeman.

[Mick]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=10129.msg91560#msg91560 date=1403655004]
Montana State, ......  All either have formal Bulldogs as their name mascot, or have a literal bulldog as their living mascot.

Better not tell that to folks in Bozeman.
[/quote]

Oh right.  It's a Bobcat named Champ.  Never mind.

[Mick]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=10129.msg91560#msg91560 date=1403655004]
Montana State, ......  All either have formal Bulldogs as their name mascot, or have a literal bulldog as their living mascot.

Better not tell that to folks in Bozeman.
[/quote]

Oh right.  It's a Bobcat named Champ.  Never mind.

[CornFed]

Not sure why Ferrari gets down arrows.  In this thread it certainly would seem that the linked story is relevant.  Presumably, his comment, "Figures" is the offending item.  Really?  You disapprove of such sentiment?  I understand that the $9 billion figure is BS in terms of any amount that actually might eventually be paid, if any.  But whatever the amount, doesn't it at least raise the possibility that money is a significant motivating factor?  Even if it were just notoriety or publicity that added incentive for this action, one does not have to be cynical to believe the group's motives are not pure.  I'll give you an up arrow, Ferrari, just cuz I think the down arrows are too churlish.

[CornFed]

Not sure why Ferrari gets down arrows.  In this thread it certainly would seem that the linked story is relevant.  Presumably, his comment, "Figures" is the offending item.  Really?  You disapprove of such sentiment?  I understand that the $9 billion figure is BS in terms of any amount that actually might eventually be paid, if any.  But whatever the amount, doesn't it at least raise the possibility that money is a significant motivating factor?  Even if it were just notoriety or publicity that added incentive for this action, one does not have to be cynical to believe the group's motives are not pure.  I'll give you an up arrow, Ferrari, just cuz I think the down arrows are too churlish.

[oldalum]

When my son and I visited Georgetown last year, it was clear that dog has a great life. Lives in a dorm with the faculty head of dorm, walked and played with by legions of students. Even has his own facebook page. Not much there for PETA to get exercised about!

[oldalum]

When my son and I visited Georgetown last year, it was clear that dog has a great life. Lives in a dorm with the faculty head of dorm, walked and played with by legions of students. Even has his own facebook page. Not much there for PETA to get exercised about!

[CowboyIndian]

Not much there for PETA to get exercised about!

I think you very generously understate the PETA agenda. They envision a world without domestic or hunted meat animals, pets or human constraints of any kind on any animal. As a friend of mine once wrote in reference to the wolf placements in the Northwest , "Why don't they turn some of those wolves loose in Washington, DC and New York, where they might actually do some good?"

[CowboyIndian]

Not much there for PETA to get exercised about!

I think you very generously understate the PETA agenda. They envision a world without domestic or hunted meat animals, pets or human constraints of any kind on any animal. As a friend of mine once wrote in reference to the wolf placements in the Northwest , "Why don't they turn some of those wolves loose in Washington, DC and New York, where they might actually do some good?"

[oldalum]

Oops, thanks for the correction!

I think if we were able to ask the bulldog, he'd prefer his life at G-town. IIRC, he also now has a puppy to keep him company (future mascot).

[oldalum]

Oops, thanks for the correction!

I think if we were able to ask the bulldog, he'd prefer his life at G-town. IIRC, he also now has a puppy to keep him company (future mascot).

[yvonne]

The mere fact that you guys are comparing these people to dogs shows just how completely you have dehumanized them! It's disgusting.

One of you is writing "figures," to imply "yet another uppity minority is is suing over using them as mascots. How dare they? That's so silly."

Well, I guess it would be a lot less if you and your family had driven off your property (Let's call is what it is instead of noble sounding names like "land."), deliberately infected with diseases, massacred, deprived of education, treated as savages (as opposed to the people who were killing you off), then maybe you'd hold a different view.

I'd compared you to the Nazis who created similar caricatures of the Jews in the 1930s and 1940s, but the genocide of the indigenous Americans is much more complete than that.

Downvote me all you want, but I will not be silent! I'm ashamed to be associated with you!

[yvonne]

The mere fact that you guys are comparing these people to dogs shows just how completely you have dehumanized them! It's disgusting.

One of you is writing "figures," to imply "yet another uppity minority is is suing over using them as mascots. How dare they? That's so silly."

Well, I guess it would be a lot less if you and your family had driven off your property (Let's call is what it is instead of noble sounding names like "land."), deliberately infected with diseases, massacred, deprived of education, treated as savages (as opposed to the people who were killing you off), then maybe you'd hold a different view.

I'd compared you to the Nazis who created similar caricatures of the Jews in the 1930s and 1940s, but the genocide of the indigenous Americans is much more complete than that.

Downvote me all you want, but I will not be silent! I'm ashamed to be associated with you!