[washingtonismoney]

Morris just might have saved the U.S.'s World Cup hopes. In a game in which neither he nor the team as a whole played well -- or average, or better than abysmal -- the U.S. managed to pull it together for one brief moment, which was enough. Down 1-0, one U.S. midfielder struck a beautiful free kick -- which Hondruras's goalkeeper palmed away with a great save. In the ensuing scrum, Morris headed it to U.S. forward Bobby Wood, who lashed it into goal. Not sure if Morris will get the assist but his intervention is critical -- the tie game preserves U.S. hopes as it's clinging to third place in the qualification standings. 

It's a tie game with extra time coming. Cross your fingers.

[washingtonismoney]

Morris just might have saved the U.S.'s World Cup hopes. In a game in which neither he nor the team as a whole played well -- or average, or better than abysmal -- the U.S. managed to pull it together for one brief moment, which was enough. Down 1-0, one U.S. midfielder struck a beautiful free kick -- which Hondruras's goalkeeper palmed away with a great save. In the ensuing scrum, Morris headed it to U.S. forward Bobby Wood, who lashed it into goal. Not sure if Morris will get the assist but his intervention is critical -- the tie game preserves U.S. hopes as it's clinging to third place in the qualification standings. 

It's a tie game with extra time coming. Cross your fingers.

[dabigv13]

That Panama game in October looms large. USMNT not out of woods yet, but the draw here was very important. Maybe Klinsmann wasn't really the problem....

[dabigv13]

That Panama game in October looms large. USMNT not out of woods yet, but the draw here was very important. Maybe Klinsmann wasn't really the problem....

[DC 86]

The BeIN announcers kept praising Acosta's free kick, Besler's play to keep the ball in and Wood's excellent chest trap and goal, but Morris with the headed flick on was enormous. He also ran all day while other wilted in the heat/humidity and had a decent chance early in the first half. All around very solid game for Morris, who certainly keeps his place in the forward rotation with this effort.

1-1 final, critical not to lose this game. Minor quibble, sorry: added time (not extra time).

[DC 86]

The BeIN announcers kept praising Acosta's free kick, Besler's play to keep the ball in and Wood's excellent chest trap and goal, but Morris with the headed flick on was enormous. He also ran all day while other wilted in the heat/humidity and had a decent chance early in the first half. All around very solid game for Morris, who certainly keeps his place in the forward rotation with this effort.

1-1 final, critical not to lose this game. Minor quibble, sorry: added time (not extra time).

[DC 86]

That Panama game in October looms large. USMNT not out of woods yet, but the draw here was very important. Maybe Klinsmann wasn't really the problem....

The Costa Rica game was a massive disappointment but I don't think the US would even be in the position they are now if Klinsmann was still in charge. There have been individual mistakes such as repeated blunders from the center backs, but the team is playing hard, playing as a team, showing fight and spirit which was sorely lacking. Klinsmann's first cycle was encouraging but his work in this second cycle was not necessarily THE problem, but it was definitely a major problem.

[DC 86]

That Panama game in October looms large. USMNT not out of woods yet, but the draw here was very important. Maybe Klinsmann wasn't really the problem....

The Costa Rica game was a massive disappointment but I don't think the US would even be in the position they are now if Klinsmann was still in charge. There have been individual mistakes such as repeated blunders from the center backs, but the team is playing hard, playing as a team, showing fight and spirit which was sorely lacking. Klinsmann's first cycle was encouraging but his work in this second cycle was not necessarily THE problem, but it was definitely a major problem.

[Viking_Guy]

Having watched most of the game:

- Neither Bradley nor Dempsey could move in the heat.  And that lack of quickness made any pressure that Pulisic and Morris put on up top useless.  It was sad to watch the two of them continually try to pressure the ball, only to have a simple pass around them give Honduras the ball wide open in the midfield.  I don't think the two veterans can be the answer moving forward.  Options for Dempsey, not so much for Bradley. Though I'd like to see more of Cristian Roldan.

- Also hate that we have to live with retreads at our outside backs so much of the time.  Zusi got blown by at will on the right, and Beasley, while cagey, is neither as strong nor nearly as fast as he was, well, 15 years ago.  Would love to see, I don't know, maybe Brandon Vincent, an actual outside back, playing there?  He's not as much of a threat going forward, but the US wing defense has been a problem for years.  Doesn't help that Arena relies on players he's familiar with from the LA Galaxy - Gonzalez was caught flat and then completely blew the tackle on the Honduras goal.  Not helped by Zusi deciding he was beaten and slowing to a jog, rather than trying to get back in the play.

- Pulisic best player on the pitch for the US, but he was having a tough time with the CONCACAF-WWE style of play the referee let go on.  On both sides.  I expected luchador masks to come out at some point - both for the tackling, and for the histrionics.  Oh, and I would love for someone to actually count up the stoppage time in the second half and compare it to the 3 minutes he allowed, 1.5 of which was taken up by a red-carded Honduran player arguing and then slowly trudging off the pitch.  I know there were at least two more minutes when the Honduran keeper, with a 1-0 lead, collapsed in a heap at the top of the box with a cramp - after a simple jump to catch a ball then slowly walking it forward.

- More generally, have to disagree with DC - I didn't see a lot of passion (at least until the last 10 minutes); the team was walking from the opening whistle.  Honduras owned the center of the pitch, and pushed the US attack wide, then double-teamed hard and physically.  The US outside mids spent an awful lot of the game passing back, with very few attempts at diagonal crossing balls, and the free kicks and balls out of the back were real crap, until Acosta's late blast started the game-tying play.

VG

[Viking_Guy]

Having watched most of the game:

- Neither Bradley nor Dempsey could move in the heat.  And that lack of quickness made any pressure that Pulisic and Morris put on up top useless.  It was sad to watch the two of them continually try to pressure the ball, only to have a simple pass around them give Honduras the ball wide open in the midfield.  I don't think the two veterans can be the answer moving forward.  Options for Dempsey, not so much for Bradley. Though I'd like to see more of Cristian Roldan.

- Also hate that we have to live with retreads at our outside backs so much of the time.  Zusi got blown by at will on the right, and Beasley, while cagey, is neither as strong nor nearly as fast as he was, well, 15 years ago.  Would love to see, I don't know, maybe Brandon Vincent, an actual outside back, playing there?  He's not as much of a threat going forward, but the US wing defense has been a problem for years.  Doesn't help that Arena relies on players he's familiar with from the LA Galaxy - Gonzalez was caught flat and then completely blew the tackle on the Honduras goal.  Not helped by Zusi deciding he was beaten and slowing to a jog, rather than trying to get back in the play.

- Pulisic best player on the pitch for the US, but he was having a tough time with the CONCACAF-WWE style of play the referee let go on.  On both sides.  I expected luchador masks to come out at some point - both for the tackling, and for the histrionics.  Oh, and I would love for someone to actually count up the stoppage time in the second half and compare it to the 3 minutes he allowed, 1.5 of which was taken up by a red-carded Honduran player arguing and then slowly trudging off the pitch.  I know there were at least two more minutes when the Honduran keeper, with a 1-0 lead, collapsed in a heap at the top of the box with a cramp - after a simple jump to catch a ball then slowly walking it forward.

- More generally, have to disagree with DC - I didn't see a lot of passion (at least until the last 10 minutes); the team was walking from the opening whistle.  Honduras owned the center of the pitch, and pushed the US attack wide, then double-teamed hard and physically.  The US outside mids spent an awful lot of the game passing back, with very few attempts at diagonal crossing balls, and the free kicks and balls out of the back were real crap, until Acosta's late blast started the game-tying play.

VG

[DC 86]

More generally, have to disagree with DC - I didn't see a lot of passion (at least until the last 10 minutes); the team was walking from the opening whistle.  Honduras owned the center of the pitch, and pushed the US attack wide, then double-teamed hard and physically.  The US outside mids spent an awful lot of the game passing back, with very few attempts at diagonal crossing balls, and the free kicks and balls out of the back were real crap, until Acosta's late blast started the game-tying play.

VG

Fair enough, I was commenting more on the team generally in these 16 games under Arena as opposed to the previous regime. The heat, humidity and field conditions certainly sapped the US's energy today and led to less aggressive play, but they didn't give up after conceding the opening goal and kept battling.

Regarding the outside backs, Yedlin will help matters substantially when he recovers from injury. I would like to see Justin Morrow get an opportunity on the other side, although Villafana has been passable.

[DC 86]

More generally, have to disagree with DC - I didn't see a lot of passion (at least until the last 10 minutes); the team was walking from the opening whistle.  Honduras owned the center of the pitch, and pushed the US attack wide, then double-teamed hard and physically.  The US outside mids spent an awful lot of the game passing back, with very few attempts at diagonal crossing balls, and the free kicks and balls out of the back were real crap, until Acosta's late blast started the game-tying play.

VG

Fair enough, I was commenting more on the team generally in these 16 games under Arena as opposed to the previous regime. The heat, humidity and field conditions certainly sapped the US's energy today and led to less aggressive play, but they didn't give up after conceding the opening goal and kept battling.

Regarding the outside backs, Yedlin will help matters substantially when he recovers from injury. I would like to see Justin Morrow get an opportunity on the other side, although Villafana has been passable.

[martyup]

It never fails to surprise me to think that the USA, with almost 300 million people, cannot field a World Cup soccer team that can dominate teams from countries like Costa Rica, Panama, Honduras, etc.  It's not as if we don't start playing at a young age.  I played soccer in grade school back in the late 60s.

[martyup]

It never fails to surprise me to think that the USA, with almost 300 million people, cannot field a World Cup soccer team that can dominate teams from countries like Costa Rica, Panama, Honduras, etc.  It's not as if we don't start playing at a young age.  I played soccer in grade school back in the late 60s.

[DC 86]

It never fails to surprise me to think that the USA, with almost 300 million people

Over 326 million.

[DC 86]

It never fails to surprise me to think that the USA, with almost 300 million people

Over 326 million.

[martyup]

[quote author=martyup link=topic=17317.msg199258#msg199258 date=1504662721]
It never fails to surprise me to think that the USA, with almost 300 million people

Over 326 million.
[/quote]

There you go.  And Costa Rica has 4.8 million.

[martyup]

[quote author=martyup link=topic=17317.msg199258#msg199258 date=1504662721]
It never fails to surprise me to think that the USA, with almost 300 million people

Over 326 million.
[/quote]

There you go.  And Costa Rica has 4.8 million.

[washingtonismoney]

FWIW, while I agree visually and by eye the team has played poorly the past couple of games, with the inability to build the attack from back to front being particularly maddening, one important indicator shows things aren't as bad as you'd think.

For those who don't follow stat-based approaches to soccer, one of the important stats is "expected goals" -- which basically computes the likelihood of any given shot scoring, based on historical averages of tens of thousands of shots. The idea is to measure who's generating better chances, and it can show which teams are playing better. Over the long run, you'd expect scoring to converge to the expected goals total.

Against Costa Rica, the U.S. obviously lost 2-0 in reality, but won the "expected goals" race 1.3 - .8: https://twitter.com/Caley_graphics/statu...9277625344

And against Honduras, the U.S. was basically even, at 1.3 for the Catrachos and 1.2 for the U.S.: https://twitter.com/Caley_graphics/statu...6549507072

That would indicate the U.S. was actually slightly better than its opponents, but less sharp (or unlucky) in the decisive moments. Which suggests in turn things aren't quite as bad as commentaries or fears would have it. 

[washingtonismoney]

FWIW, while I agree visually and by eye the team has played poorly the past couple of games, with the inability to build the attack from back to front being particularly maddening, one important indicator shows things aren't as bad as you'd think.

For those who don't follow stat-based approaches to soccer, one of the important stats is "expected goals" -- which basically computes the likelihood of any given shot scoring, based on historical averages of tens of thousands of shots. The idea is to measure who's generating better chances, and it can show which teams are playing better. Over the long run, you'd expect scoring to converge to the expected goals total.

Against Costa Rica, the U.S. obviously lost 2-0 in reality, but won the "expected goals" race 1.3 - .8: https://twitter.com/Caley_graphics/statu...9277625344

And against Honduras, the U.S. was basically even, at 1.3 for the Catrachos and 1.2 for the U.S.: https://twitter.com/Caley_graphics/statu...6549507072

That would indicate the U.S. was actually slightly better than its opponents, but less sharp (or unlucky) in the decisive moments. Which suggests in turn things aren't quite as bad as commentaries or fears would have it. 

[washingtonismoney]

[quote author=DC 86 link=topic=17317.msg199259#msg199259 date=1504662844]
[quote author=martyup link=topic=17317.msg199258#msg199258 date=1504662721]
It never fails to surprise me to think that the USA, with almost 300 million people

Over 326 million.
[/quote]

There you go.  And Costa Rica has 4.8 million.
[/quote]

Well, traditionally the Netherlands (17 million) is one of the great soccer-playing countries in the world, though they've fallen on hard times the past few years. Given China's and India's inability to make anything like a mark on international soccer, I'm not sure the correlation between quality and population is all that high.

[washingtonismoney]

[quote author=DC 86 link=topic=17317.msg199259#msg199259 date=1504662844]
[quote author=martyup link=topic=17317.msg199258#msg199258 date=1504662721]
It never fails to surprise me to think that the USA, with almost 300 million people

Over 326 million.
[/quote]

There you go.  And Costa Rica has 4.8 million.
[/quote]

Well, traditionally the Netherlands (17 million) is one of the great soccer-playing countries in the world, though they've fallen on hard times the past few years. Given China's and India's inability to make anything like a mark on international soccer, I'm not sure the correlation between quality and population is all that high.

[dabigv13]

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status...4873110530

Some more for the stats nerds.

[dabigv13]

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status...4873110530

Some more for the stats nerds.

[dabigv13]

Also, looking ahead- Panama now ahead of US, who are now in the 4th spot, which requires a playoff to advance to WC. However they are only up on Honduras by goal differential.

If the US doesn't beat Panama in their next match (or worse lose), they may be in the perhaps dicey situation of needing an already well qualified Mexico to take points from Honduras, at Honduras!

Honduras will need to get a result themselves versus Costa Rica in their next game to set up that scenario.

Could be high drama that last week.

[dabigv13]

Also, looking ahead- Panama now ahead of US, who are now in the 4th spot, which requires a playoff to advance to WC. However they are only up on Honduras by goal differential.

If the US doesn't beat Panama in their next match (or worse lose), they may be in the perhaps dicey situation of needing an already well qualified Mexico to take points from Honduras, at Honduras!

Honduras will need to get a result themselves versus Costa Rica in their next game to set up that scenario.

Could be high drama that last week.

[OutsiderFan]

It would suck to miss the World Cup, but missing a World Cup in Russia, given the shenanigans it has pulled on the United States and our allies, would not bother me one bit.

As for the population argument. are the best athletes in the United States playing soccer, like they do in smaller "soccer first" countries?  What if say the likes of Lamar Jackson, Christian McCaffery, John Ross, Kyrie Irving, Mike Trout, played soccer instead of their sports?  My guess is the USA would be pretty formidable in international soccer.

I don't understand soccer enough to know if there is some certain ideal size profile for all players, or by given position, but I'd have to think tall, quick, big and strong would be the prototype for most every position. Most such athletes will play football, basketball, and baseball in the USA, yes?

[OutsiderFan]

It would suck to miss the World Cup, but missing a World Cup in Russia, given the shenanigans it has pulled on the United States and our allies, would not bother me one bit.

As for the population argument. are the best athletes in the United States playing soccer, like they do in smaller "soccer first" countries?  What if say the likes of Lamar Jackson, Christian McCaffery, John Ross, Kyrie Irving, Mike Trout, played soccer instead of their sports?  My guess is the USA would be pretty formidable in international soccer.

I don't understand soccer enough to know if there is some certain ideal size profile for all players, or by given position, but I'd have to think tall, quick, big and strong would be the prototype for most every position. Most such athletes will play football, basketball, and baseball in the USA, yes?

[washingtonismoney]

As for the population argument. are the best athletes in the United States playing soccer, like they do in smaller "soccer first" countries?  What if say the likes of Lamar Jackson, Christian McCaffery, John Ross, Kyrie Irving, Mike Trout, played soccer instead of their sports?  My guess is the USA would be pretty formidable in international soccer.

I don't understand soccer enough to know if there is some certain ideal size profile for all players, or by given position, but I'd have to think tall, quick, big and strong would be the prototype for most every position. Most such athletes will play football, basketball, and baseball in the USA, yes?

No, not at all. While athleticism is very important, skill is at a larger premium in soccer than most other sports. Additionally, you want to be smaller, with more change of direction, and endurance. It's somewhat unusual to see guys above 6'3", which is considered very tall.

More to the point, American players are always described as very athletic, in great shape, etc. Getting even better athletes would be nice, but really American deficiencies are more in the skill and soccer IQ parts of the equation. The "what if Americans' best athletes?" played has some intuitive attraction but addresses a non-existent problem.

[washingtonismoney]

As for the population argument. are the best athletes in the United States playing soccer, like they do in smaller "soccer first" countries?  What if say the likes of Lamar Jackson, Christian McCaffery, John Ross, Kyrie Irving, Mike Trout, played soccer instead of their sports?  My guess is the USA would be pretty formidable in international soccer.

I don't understand soccer enough to know if there is some certain ideal size profile for all players, or by given position, but I'd have to think tall, quick, big and strong would be the prototype for most every position. Most such athletes will play football, basketball, and baseball in the USA, yes?

No, not at all. While athleticism is very important, skill is at a larger premium in soccer than most other sports. Additionally, you want to be smaller, with more change of direction, and endurance. It's somewhat unusual to see guys above 6'3", which is considered very tall.

More to the point, American players are always described as very athletic, in great shape, etc. Getting even better athletes would be nice, but really American deficiencies are more in the skill and soccer IQ parts of the equation. The "what if Americans' best athletes?" played has some intuitive attraction but addresses a non-existent problem.

[CompSci87]

I think the more germane what-if is: what if soccer were the top sport in the US, the one with the highest TV ratings and that everyone loves most while growing up?

[CompSci87]

I think the more germane what-if is: what if soccer were the top sport in the US, the one with the highest TV ratings and that everyone loves most while growing up?

[bbm233]

No, not at all. While athleticism is very important, skill is at a larger premium in soccer than most other sports. Additionally, you want to be smaller, with more change of direction, and endurance. It's somewhat unusual to see guys above 6'3", which is considered very tall.

More to the point, American players are always described as very athletic, in great shape, etc. Getting even better athletes would be nice, but really American deficiencies are more in the skill and soccer IQ parts of the equation. The "what if Americans' best athletes?" played has some intuitive attraction but addresses a non-existent problem.

Jordan Morris is a good example of skill vs. athleticism. He can blow past most people out there and run tirelessly for the full 90. But he can't do anything with his left foot at anywhere close to an elite level.

[bbm233]

No, not at all. While athleticism is very important, skill is at a larger premium in soccer than most other sports. Additionally, you want to be smaller, with more change of direction, and endurance. It's somewhat unusual to see guys above 6'3", which is considered very tall.

More to the point, American players are always described as very athletic, in great shape, etc. Getting even better athletes would be nice, but really American deficiencies are more in the skill and soccer IQ parts of the equation. The "what if Americans' best athletes?" played has some intuitive attraction but addresses a non-existent problem.

Jordan Morris is a good example of skill vs. athleticism. He can blow past most people out there and run tirelessly for the full 90. But he can't do anything with his left foot at anywhere close to an elite level.

[DC 86]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=17317.msg199329#msg199329 date=1504716279]

No, not at all. While athleticism is very important, skill is at a larger premium in soccer than most other sports. Additionally, you want to be smaller, with more change of direction, and endurance. It's somewhat unusual to see guys above 6'3", which is considered very tall.

More to the point, American players are always described as very athletic, in great shape, etc. Getting even better athletes would be nice, but really American deficiencies are more in the skill and soccer IQ parts of the equation. The "what if Americans' best athletes?" played has some intuitive attraction but addresses a non-existent problem.

Jordan Morris is a good example of skill vs. athleticism. He can blow past most people out there and run tirelessly for the full 90. But he can't do anything with his left foot at anywhere close to an elite level.
[/quote]

I agree with regard to Morris, he may be the fastest and strongest player on the U.S. roster but deficiencies in skill keep him from being a world class player like Pulisic.

But I disagree with the implied definition of athleticism as merely speed and strength. Hand eye coordination, spatial awareness, balance and body control are essential to elite athleticism. I think someone like Odell Beckham could have been an outstanding soccer player if he had devoted himself to the international version of football instead of the American version, not just because of his straight line speed (which is still a major asset in soccer) but moreso because his evident athleticism (in the broadest sense) makes me believe he would have acquired the requisite soccer skills if he had applied himself in that direction.

I do think we would have a much stronger national team if our best athletes devoted themselves to soccer, with "best" not simplistically defined as biggest and fastest but as possessing the above short area attributes as demonstrated by some NFL receivers and NBA point guards.

To my mind there are two reasons why the U.S. will struggle to reach the top tier of international soccer, somewhat related to the above: 1) soccer is overwhelmingly a middle class sport in the U.S. where pay-for-play is the basic model, 2) top prospects in other countries become professionals (or quasi-professionals) as early as their pre-teen years, which is a model that would face major backlash here, but age 13-17 is when soccer skills are developed and ingrained.

[DC 86]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=17317.msg199329#msg199329 date=1504716279]

No, not at all. While athleticism is very important, skill is at a larger premium in soccer than most other sports. Additionally, you want to be smaller, with more change of direction, and endurance. It's somewhat unusual to see guys above 6'3", which is considered very tall.

More to the point, American players are always described as very athletic, in great shape, etc. Getting even better athletes would be nice, but really American deficiencies are more in the skill and soccer IQ parts of the equation. The "what if Americans' best athletes?" played has some intuitive attraction but addresses a non-existent problem.

Jordan Morris is a good example of skill vs. athleticism. He can blow past most people out there and run tirelessly for the full 90. But he can't do anything with his left foot at anywhere close to an elite level.
[/quote]

I agree with regard to Morris, he may be the fastest and strongest player on the U.S. roster but deficiencies in skill keep him from being a world class player like Pulisic.

But I disagree with the implied definition of athleticism as merely speed and strength. Hand eye coordination, spatial awareness, balance and body control are essential to elite athleticism. I think someone like Odell Beckham could have been an outstanding soccer player if he had devoted himself to the international version of football instead of the American version, not just because of his straight line speed (which is still a major asset in soccer) but moreso because his evident athleticism (in the broadest sense) makes me believe he would have acquired the requisite soccer skills if he had applied himself in that direction.

I do think we would have a much stronger national team if our best athletes devoted themselves to soccer, with "best" not simplistically defined as biggest and fastest but as possessing the above short area attributes as demonstrated by some NFL receivers and NBA point guards.

To my mind there are two reasons why the U.S. will struggle to reach the top tier of international soccer, somewhat related to the above: 1) soccer is overwhelmingly a middle class sport in the U.S. where pay-for-play is the basic model, 2) top prospects in other countries become professionals (or quasi-professionals) as early as their pre-teen years, which is a model that would face major backlash here, but age 13-17 is when soccer skills are developed and ingrained.