[needle]

The New York Times has an in-depth report on Kelly Catlin, the champion cyclist and Stanford grad student who recently died by suicide at age 23.

It turns out that Catlin had considerable self-awareness about her struggles. She also might be described as highly driven by a certain code that I'm guessing didn't exactly help her when she ran into unexpected troubles.

The article mostly gives only a glancing treatment to what seems to have been a lack of one-on-one time Catlin had with mental health professionals. I can only hope that others in a similar state as Catlin's get that push/drive to see a mental health professional. As much as times have changed for the better when it comes to people being more open about getting such help, it seems that Catlin saw her declining mental health as a personal failing.

Catlin told her sister, Christine, that seeking therapy meant she was weak and that she would rather suffer.   

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/08/sport..._th_190409

[needle]

The New York Times has an in-depth report on Kelly Catlin, the champion cyclist and Stanford grad student who recently died by suicide at age 23.

It turns out that Catlin had considerable self-awareness about her struggles. She also might be described as highly driven by a certain code that I'm guessing didn't exactly help her when she ran into unexpected troubles.

The article mostly gives only a glancing treatment to what seems to have been a lack of one-on-one time Catlin had with mental health professionals. I can only hope that others in a similar state as Catlin's get that push/drive to see a mental health professional. As much as times have changed for the better when it comes to people being more open about getting such help, it seems that Catlin saw her declining mental health as a personal failing.

Catlin told her sister, Christine, that seeking therapy meant she was weak and that she would rather suffer.   

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/08/sport..._th_190409

[Phogge]

I had a friend, probably the best producer ever at 60 Minutes, who ultimately died from acute acholol poisoning. Had a great family, mucho respect from colleagues, a fabulous track record and a very close friendship with a few of us. Serious worker and fun to be with. Off the charts smart. Was a friendly drunk but had a dark side that repulsed numerous rehabs. To this day I can’t comprehend how he threw it all away, especially with a couple of friends and a spouse who stood behind him all the way through his disease and who tried to sponsor his rehabs from near and afar.

Sometimes I guess, there is no answer.

[Phogge]

I had a friend, probably the best producer ever at 60 Minutes, who ultimately died from acute acholol poisoning. Had a great family, mucho respect from colleagues, a fabulous track record and a very close friendship with a few of us. Serious worker and fun to be with. Off the charts smart. Was a friendly drunk but had a dark side that repulsed numerous rehabs. To this day I can’t comprehend how he threw it all away, especially with a couple of friends and a spouse who stood behind him all the way through his disease and who tried to sponsor his rehabs from near and afar.

Sometimes I guess, there is no answer.

[jonnyss]

The New York Times has an in-depth report on Kelly Catlin, the champion cyclist and Stanford grad student who recently died by suicide at age 23.

It turns out that Catlin had considerable self-awareness about her struggles. She also might be described as highly driven by a certain code that I'm guessing didn't exactly help her when she ran into unexpected troubles.

The article mostly gives only a glancing treatment to what seems to have been a lack of one-on-one time Catlin had with mental health professionals. I can only hope that others in a similar state as Catlin's get that push/drive to see a mental health professional. As much as times have changed for the better when it comes to people being more open about getting such help, it seems that Catlin saw her declining mental health as a personal failing.

Catlin told her sister, Christine, that seeking therapy meant she was weak and that she would rather suffer.   

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/08/sport..._th_190409

such a tragedy - and a complex and painful situation.

self-critical thoughts - e.g. that one is to blame, that one is a failure, that one needs to solve things without help - are a hallmark of depression and often disappear as the depression resolves.

the family reports that kelly did have one psychiatrist at stanford she trusted and wanted to see, but he was apparently booked for the next few months. i believe stanford instituted a policy a few years ago of trying to treat athletes in house rather than encourage them, as they encourage non-athlete students, to use their health insurance to see docs in the community. this can of course create problems if you don't have enough available docs that the patient likes.

lastly, the family believes she changed after one, perhaps 2, concussions. severe psychological problems are common after traumatic brain injury, and can be less responsive to both meds and therapy than similar illnesses without head injury.

[jonnyss]

The New York Times has an in-depth report on Kelly Catlin, the champion cyclist and Stanford grad student who recently died by suicide at age 23.

It turns out that Catlin had considerable self-awareness about her struggles. She also might be described as highly driven by a certain code that I'm guessing didn't exactly help her when she ran into unexpected troubles.

The article mostly gives only a glancing treatment to what seems to have been a lack of one-on-one time Catlin had with mental health professionals. I can only hope that others in a similar state as Catlin's get that push/drive to see a mental health professional. As much as times have changed for the better when it comes to people being more open about getting such help, it seems that Catlin saw her declining mental health as a personal failing.

Catlin told her sister, Christine, that seeking therapy meant she was weak and that she would rather suffer.   

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/08/sport..._th_190409

such a tragedy - and a complex and painful situation.

self-critical thoughts - e.g. that one is to blame, that one is a failure, that one needs to solve things without help - are a hallmark of depression and often disappear as the depression resolves.

the family reports that kelly did have one psychiatrist at stanford she trusted and wanted to see, but he was apparently booked for the next few months. i believe stanford instituted a policy a few years ago of trying to treat athletes in house rather than encourage them, as they encourage non-athlete students, to use their health insurance to see docs in the community. this can of course create problems if you don't have enough available docs that the patient likes.

lastly, the family believes she changed after one, perhaps 2, concussions. severe psychological problems are common after traumatic brain injury, and can be less responsive to both meds and therapy than similar illnesses without head injury.

[82lsju]

Where do Stanford students go if they’ve attempted suicide?

Between one and three students are admitted to Stanford Hospital’s high-security Inpatient Psychiatric Ward each week

https://www.stanforddaily.com/2019/04/05...-102097034

[82lsju]

Where do Stanford students go if they’ve attempted suicide?

Between one and three students are admitted to Stanford Hospital’s high-security Inpatient Psychiatric Ward each week

https://www.stanforddaily.com/2019/04/05...-102097034

[needle]

 i believe stanford instituted a policy a few years ago of trying to treat athletes in house rather than encourage them, as they encourage non-athlete students, to use their health insurance to see docs in the community. this can of course create problems if you don't have enough available docs that the patient likes.

I had missed earlier the report quoting Catlin's father stating that Stanford did not do enough to help his daughter. Looks like part of the issue was probably that Catlin was not a Stanford athlete, so maybe there was a question of whether those on staff who work with Stanford athletes should/could see her. (Neither Stanford nor the docs have commented, as far as I know.) Interesting that the NYTImes article elides over this pretty much completely.


From that earlier report (I don't have access to the Chronicle, where I believe it was first published, but here's the Daily's summary of what Catlin's father Mark has said):

 After Kelly’s previous suicide attempt and week-long hospital stay in January, Mark said, she was unable to see her preferred campus sports psychiatrist, Francesco Dandekar, because he was backlogged with cases until May.

Dandekar has not responded to The Daily’s request for comment.

Due to Dandekar’s unavailability, Kelly’s personal coach and University of Michigan professor Stephen McGregor recommended another campus sports psychiatrist. But Stanford barred Kelly from seeing this doctor, according to Mark and McGregor, because the doctor is contracted to work with varsity athletes, and Kelly did not compete on a Stanford team.

https://www.stanforddaily.com/2019/03/29...her-death/

[needle]

 i believe stanford instituted a policy a few years ago of trying to treat athletes in house rather than encourage them, as they encourage non-athlete students, to use their health insurance to see docs in the community. this can of course create problems if you don't have enough available docs that the patient likes.

I had missed earlier the report quoting Catlin's father stating that Stanford did not do enough to help his daughter. Looks like part of the issue was probably that Catlin was not a Stanford athlete, so maybe there was a question of whether those on staff who work with Stanford athletes should/could see her. (Neither Stanford nor the docs have commented, as far as I know.) Interesting that the NYTImes article elides over this pretty much completely.


From that earlier report (I don't have access to the Chronicle, where I believe it was first published, but here's the Daily's summary of what Catlin's father Mark has said):

 After Kelly’s previous suicide attempt and week-long hospital stay in January, Mark said, she was unable to see her preferred campus sports psychiatrist, Francesco Dandekar, because he was backlogged with cases until May.

Dandekar has not responded to The Daily’s request for comment.

Due to Dandekar’s unavailability, Kelly’s personal coach and University of Michigan professor Stephen McGregor recommended another campus sports psychiatrist. But Stanford barred Kelly from seeing this doctor, according to Mark and McGregor, because the doctor is contracted to work with varsity athletes, and Kelly did not compete on a Stanford team.

https://www.stanforddaily.com/2019/03/29...her-death/

[burger]

 i believe stanford instituted a policy a few years ago of trying to treat athletes in house rather than encourage them, as they encourage non-athlete students, to use their health insurance to see docs in the community. this can of course create problems if you don't have enough available docs that the patient likes.

I had missed earlier the report quoting Catlin's father stating that Stanford did not do enough to help his daughter. Looks like part of the issue was probably that Catlin was not a Stanford athlete, so maybe there was a question of whether those on staff who work with Stanford athletes should/could see her. (Neither Stanford nor the docs have commented, as far as I know.) Interesting that the NYTImes article elides over this pretty much completely.


From that earlier report (I don't have access to the Chronicle, where I believe it was first published, but here's the Daily's summary of what Catlin's father Mark has said):

 After Kelly’s previous suicide attempt and week-long hospital stay in January, Mark said, she was unable to see her preferred campus sports psychiatrist, Francesco Dandekar, because he was backlogged with cases until May.

Dandekar has not responded to The Daily’s request for comment.

Due to Dandekar’s unavailability, Kelly’s personal coach and University of Michigan professor Stephen McGregor recommended another campus sports psychiatrist. But Stanford barred Kelly from seeing this doctor, according to Mark and McGregor, because the doctor is contracted to work with varsity athletes, and Kelly did not compete on a Stanford team.

https://www.stanforddaily.com/2019/03/29...her-death/

My wife is a therapist, and she read these articles at my prompting.  She was perplexed by the family's insistence that Kelly see a sports psychiatrist.  Any trained therapist (and surely any psychiatrist) should be able to assist someone suffering from depression regardless of the cause.  That's especially true for someone who is having suicidal thoughts.  In the long run, perhaps a specialist would be better, but for someone in a crisis you can't be picky.

[burger]

 i believe stanford instituted a policy a few years ago of trying to treat athletes in house rather than encourage them, as they encourage non-athlete students, to use their health insurance to see docs in the community. this can of course create problems if you don't have enough available docs that the patient likes.

I had missed earlier the report quoting Catlin's father stating that Stanford did not do enough to help his daughter. Looks like part of the issue was probably that Catlin was not a Stanford athlete, so maybe there was a question of whether those on staff who work with Stanford athletes should/could see her. (Neither Stanford nor the docs have commented, as far as I know.) Interesting that the NYTImes article elides over this pretty much completely.


From that earlier report (I don't have access to the Chronicle, where I believe it was first published, but here's the Daily's summary of what Catlin's father Mark has said):

 After Kelly’s previous suicide attempt and week-long hospital stay in January, Mark said, she was unable to see her preferred campus sports psychiatrist, Francesco Dandekar, because he was backlogged with cases until May.

Dandekar has not responded to The Daily’s request for comment.

Due to Dandekar’s unavailability, Kelly’s personal coach and University of Michigan professor Stephen McGregor recommended another campus sports psychiatrist. But Stanford barred Kelly from seeing this doctor, according to Mark and McGregor, because the doctor is contracted to work with varsity athletes, and Kelly did not compete on a Stanford team.

https://www.stanforddaily.com/2019/03/29...her-death/

My wife is a therapist, and she read these articles at my prompting.  She was perplexed by the family's insistence that Kelly see a sports psychiatrist.  Any trained therapist (and surely any psychiatrist) should be able to assist someone suffering from depression regardless of the cause.  That's especially true for someone who is having suicidal thoughts.  In the long run, perhaps a specialist would be better, but for someone in a crisis you can't be picky.

[BostonCard]

I had a friend, probably the best producer ever at 60 Minutes, who ultimately died from acute acholol poisoning. Had a great family, mucho respect from colleagues, a fabulous track record and a very close friendship with a few of us. Serious worker and fun to be with. Off the charts smart. Was a friendly drunk but had a dark side that repulsed numerous rehabs. To this day I can’t comprehend how he threw it all away, especially with a couple of friends and a spouse who stood behind him all the way through his disease and who tried to sponsor his rehabs from near and afar.

Sometimes I guess, there is no answer.

As part of my medical school training, during my psychiatry rotation, I sat in on an AA meeting.  The recovering alcoholic described how he had relapsed.  He had been sober something like six years, and one day was at a party.  He didn't even have a real drink; he had asked for a non-alcoholic beer.  But even "non-alcoholic" beers have somewhere between 0.1% and 0.5% alcohol by volume (a typical beer is 10-fold higher).  Anyways, he kind of really liked the non-alcoholic beer, so he asked for another, and then another, and then he asked for "the real thing".  That in turn led him to waking up in a ditch 6 months later, before finally hitting rock bottom again and (re)-entering AA.

The story really enabled me to understand that alcoholics' brains really are wired differently, and that while you and I might have trouble understanding how someone with so much could throw it all away, the truth is that for an alcoholic in the midst of addiction, that no amount of cost in terms of career, family, friends, etc, is enough to overcome the power of alcohol.  It is very sad.

BC

[BostonCard]

I had a friend, probably the best producer ever at 60 Minutes, who ultimately died from acute acholol poisoning. Had a great family, mucho respect from colleagues, a fabulous track record and a very close friendship with a few of us. Serious worker and fun to be with. Off the charts smart. Was a friendly drunk but had a dark side that repulsed numerous rehabs. To this day I can’t comprehend how he threw it all away, especially with a couple of friends and a spouse who stood behind him all the way through his disease and who tried to sponsor his rehabs from near and afar.

Sometimes I guess, there is no answer.

As part of my medical school training, during my psychiatry rotation, I sat in on an AA meeting.  The recovering alcoholic described how he had relapsed.  He had been sober something like six years, and one day was at a party.  He didn't even have a real drink; he had asked for a non-alcoholic beer.  But even "non-alcoholic" beers have somewhere between 0.1% and 0.5% alcohol by volume (a typical beer is 10-fold higher).  Anyways, he kind of really liked the non-alcoholic beer, so he asked for another, and then another, and then he asked for "the real thing".  That in turn led him to waking up in a ditch 6 months later, before finally hitting rock bottom again and (re)-entering AA.

The story really enabled me to understand that alcoholics' brains really are wired differently, and that while you and I might have trouble understanding how someone with so much could throw it all away, the truth is that for an alcoholic in the midst of addiction, that no amount of cost in terms of career, family, friends, etc, is enough to overcome the power of alcohol.  It is very sad.

BC

[CornFed]

I didn't really see much in that article to suggest she was alcoholic, but God knows it can manifest in many ways.  Her depression, though, sounds horrible.  What she must have gone through is difficult to comprehend.  Situations like this are tragic.  Everyone nearby has their life irreversibly altered.  My thoughts will dwell on this for a while.

[CornFed]

I didn't really see much in that article to suggest she was alcoholic, but God knows it can manifest in many ways.  Her depression, though, sounds horrible.  What she must have gone through is difficult to comprehend.  Situations like this are tragic.  Everyone nearby has their life irreversibly altered.  My thoughts will dwell on this for a while.

[jonnyss]

I didn't really see much in that article to suggest she was alcoholic, but God knows it can manifest in many ways.  Her depression, though, sounds horrible.  What she must have gone through is difficult to comprehend.  Situations like this are tragic.  Everyone nearby has their life irreversibly altered.  My thoughts will dwell on this for a while.

i believe phogge posted that kelly's death brought back memories of a highly accomplished friend who could not be reasoned out of drinking himself to death.

on the "does an athlete need to see a sports psychiatrist issue," i agree. you probably don't. i don't know if stanford did this, but you certainly can create a problem by bragging to patient and family that you have the best specialists, uniquely trained to treat a certain problem, then not actually making those specialists available to the patient.

in the series of ny times articles on campus suicide last year, several universities made a point of saying that they had taken care to match the depressed student with a psychiatrist in the community and followed up to make sure the treatment was progressing. the reports on kelly imply that stanford dropped the ball on ensuring she was connected with a therapist/psychiatrist.

that said, in my experience, such deaths often involve a perfect storm of contributing factors: a reluctant patient, an institution that drops the ball, a family that hears the student plans to kill herself "in the next month" then hesitates to fly in and hospitalize her or camp on her doorstep.

[jonnyss]

I didn't really see much in that article to suggest she was alcoholic, but God knows it can manifest in many ways.  Her depression, though, sounds horrible.  What she must have gone through is difficult to comprehend.  Situations like this are tragic.  Everyone nearby has their life irreversibly altered.  My thoughts will dwell on this for a while.

i believe phogge posted that kelly's death brought back memories of a highly accomplished friend who could not be reasoned out of drinking himself to death.

on the "does an athlete need to see a sports psychiatrist issue," i agree. you probably don't. i don't know if stanford did this, but you certainly can create a problem by bragging to patient and family that you have the best specialists, uniquely trained to treat a certain problem, then not actually making those specialists available to the patient.

in the series of ny times articles on campus suicide last year, several universities made a point of saying that they had taken care to match the depressed student with a psychiatrist in the community and followed up to make sure the treatment was progressing. the reports on kelly imply that stanford dropped the ball on ensuring she was connected with a therapist/psychiatrist.

that said, in my experience, such deaths often involve a perfect storm of contributing factors: a reluctant patient, an institution that drops the ball, a family that hears the student plans to kill herself "in the next month" then hesitates to fly in and hospitalize her or camp on her doorstep.

[BostonCard]

I didn't really see much in that article to suggest she was alcoholic, but God knows it can manifest in many ways.  Her depression, though, sounds horrible.  What she must have gone through is difficult to comprehend.  Situations like this are tragic.  Everyone nearby has their life irreversibly altered.  My thoughts will dwell on this for a while.

Yeah, my response was to TC, and not meant to imply that alcohol was a factor inCatlin’s death.

BC

[BostonCard]

I didn't really see much in that article to suggest she was alcoholic, but God knows it can manifest in many ways.  Her depression, though, sounds horrible.  What she must have gone through is difficult to comprehend.  Situations like this are tragic.  Everyone nearby has their life irreversibly altered.  My thoughts will dwell on this for a while.

Yeah, my response was to TC, and not meant to imply that alcohol was a factor inCatlin’s death.

BC