[mark3k]

The Bootleg/Scout.com just blasted out a New Commit e-mail re: Grant Verhoeven (they have him ranked #17 in the country).  No story on their site yet, but apparently he had K.a.l., us and St. Mary's as his finalists, and made the right choice  ;D

Looks like a good, and much needed, get!  Way to go, JD & way to go/welcome, Grant!

[mark3k]

The Bootleg/Scout.com just blasted out a New Commit e-mail re: Grant Verhoeven (they have him ranked #17 in the country).  No story on their site yet, but apparently he had K.a.l., us and St. Mary's as his finalists, and made the right choice  ;D

Looks like a good, and much needed, get!  Way to go, JD & way to go/welcome, Grant!

[fullmetal]

Wow, great news!  He's listed as a 6'8" PF, 215lbs (gotta change that) with 4 stars by ESPN.  Hopefully with all these bodies between 6'8" and 6'9", Dawkins will be able to field a capable front court...

[fullmetal]

Wow, great news!  He's listed as a 6'8" PF, 215lbs (gotta change that) with 4 stars by ESPN.  Hopefully with all these bodies between 6'8" and 6'9", Dawkins will be able to field a capable front court...

[washingtonismoney]

I'm not sure we'd ever quite see the day: a Stanford coach is the all-recruit, little-coach-'em-up variety. Never thought I'd see a Stanford coach in the same illustrious club as Rick Barnes, Paul Hewitt, Jeff T.edford, whomever's coaching Clemson, FSU, and Notre Dame football at the moment, etc.

[washingtonismoney]

I'm not sure we'd ever quite see the day: a Stanford coach is the all-recruit, little-coach-'em-up variety. Never thought I'd see a Stanford coach in the same illustrious club as Rick Barnes, Paul Hewitt, Jeff T.edford, whomever's coaching Clemson, FSU, and Notre Dame football at the moment, etc.

[fullmetal]

At least Rick Barnes has some results to show for it.  And let's be honest, Barnes's recruits are much better on paper than Dawkins's recruits.

There was an article out on barkingcarnival.com some time ago about how Barnes's, ah, unique coaching style prepares his players well for the NBA.  Basically, if the players have to claw and scratch out an offense on their own instead of running around in a system, they'll be much more ready to handle NBA offenses and the sometimes dysfunctional teamwork among NBA players.  Small comfort to those Texas fans expecting basketball championships.

[fullmetal]

At least Rick Barnes has some results to show for it.  And let's be honest, Barnes's recruits are much better on paper than Dawkins's recruits.

There was an article out on barkingcarnival.com some time ago about how Barnes's, ah, unique coaching style prepares his players well for the NBA.  Basically, if the players have to claw and scratch out an offense on their own instead of running around in a system, they'll be much more ready to handle NBA offenses and the sometimes dysfunctional teamwork among NBA players.  Small comfort to those Texas fans expecting basketball championships.

[washingtonismoney]

There was an article out on barkingcarnival.com some time ago about how Barnes's, ah, unique coaching style prepares his players well for the NBA.  Basically, if the players have to claw and scratch out an offense on their own instead of running around in a system, they'll be much more ready to handle NBA offenses and the sometimes dysfunctional teamwork among NBA players.

*snort*

College basketball fans can keep telling themselves that. College basketball offenses suck. There's a reason they get thirty-five seconds a possession.

[washingtonismoney]

There was an article out on barkingcarnival.com some time ago about how Barnes's, ah, unique coaching style prepares his players well for the NBA.  Basically, if the players have to claw and scratch out an offense on their own instead of running around in a system, they'll be much more ready to handle NBA offenses and the sometimes dysfunctional teamwork among NBA players.

*snort*

College basketball fans can keep telling themselves that. College basketball offenses suck. There's a reason they get thirty-five seconds a possession.

[Redrum]

The overall reaction is that it was bummer to lose a recruit to icky Stanford,  but that the recruit himself not an irreparable loss.  Feeling that there are other big men out there with more to offer and they feel they're in the running for some. 

[Redrum]

The overall reaction is that it was bummer to lose a recruit to icky Stanford,  but that the recruit himself not an irreparable loss.  Feeling that there are other big men out there with more to offer and they feel they're in the running for some. 

[washingtonismoney]

I would say the boards that are most virulently anti-Stanford are South Bend ones, when any suggestion of possible recruiting failure to us comes up. They always freak out.

And why not? Somewhere in South Bend, a branding manager freaks out anytime someone suggests Stanford could become the "Duke of football." "That was supposed to be us," he mutters.

[washingtonismoney]

I would say the boards that are most virulently anti-Stanford are South Bend ones, when any suggestion of possible recruiting failure to us comes up. They always freak out.

And why not? Somewhere in South Bend, a branding manager freaks out anytime someone suggests Stanford could become the "Duke of football." "That was supposed to be us," he mutters.

[Redrum]

Any opinions on Eric Reveno as the next Stanford coach?  Apparently he's done great things at Univ. of Portland,  even gotten them into the top 25.  His rep seems to be the anti-Dawkins,  heavy emphasis on teaching and developing raw players into team players.  But,  not top level competition for the most part.

And then, there's the Dawkins part.  With Coach K retiring...would YOU hire Dawkins to replace him at Duke?  My guess no Duke offer and Dawkins hangs on at SU like grim death.

Just out of curiosity,  checked up on Trent Johnson.  Stellar first year,  first in the conference,  through to the second round of the tournament.  Since then....ummm, not so much.  Two almost identical seasons:  11-20 overall twice,  2-14,3-13 in conference. Twice 6th (last) in the SEC West.  49-48 overall. 

[Redrum]

Any opinions on Eric Reveno as the next Stanford coach?  Apparently he's done great things at Univ. of Portland,  even gotten them into the top 25.  His rep seems to be the anti-Dawkins,  heavy emphasis on teaching and developing raw players into team players.  But,  not top level competition for the most part.

And then, there's the Dawkins part.  With Coach K retiring...would YOU hire Dawkins to replace him at Duke?  My guess no Duke offer and Dawkins hangs on at SU like grim death.

Just out of curiosity,  checked up on Trent Johnson.  Stellar first year,  first in the conference,  through to the second round of the tournament.  Since then....ummm, not so much.  Two almost identical seasons:  11-20 overall twice,  2-14,3-13 in conference. Twice 6th (last) in the SEC West.  49-48 overall. 

[Redrum]

but the Dukies won't ask.

I was just curious in a general kind of way whether -- doing some forward thinking--  Eric Reveno would be worth watching,  maybe even hiring.

[Redrum]

but the Dukies won't ask.

I was just curious in a general kind of way whether -- doing some forward thinking--  Eric Reveno would be worth watching,  maybe even hiring.

[97fan]

Reveno is the obvious choice if Dawkins doesn't work out. But I for one am not ready to give up on Dawkins yet. He's finally got his guys on the court. His recruiting has been solid. If there's not significant improvement this season, I'll be ready to throw in the towel on Dawkins. But I think he'll have a lot of success at Stanford, and be around here for quite some time.

When is Krzyzewski retiring? Did I miss an announcement?

[97fan]

Reveno is the obvious choice if Dawkins doesn't work out. But I for one am not ready to give up on Dawkins yet. He's finally got his guys on the court. His recruiting has been solid. If there's not significant improvement this season, I'll be ready to throw in the towel on Dawkins. But I think he'll have a lot of success at Stanford, and be around here for quite some time.

When is Krzyzewski retiring? Did I miss an announcement?

[jacketree]

I'm not so sure Reveno is that obvious.  I've paid attention to the Pilots (or Pillows, usually, in basketball at crunch time) since my daughter matriculated there 3 years ago.  Lacking football and hating soccer, men's hoops is about all that is left for her on campus. (She started her hoops fandom with Brevin Knight and Art Lee back when.) 

They play hard, but never with much skill, and I can't stand flashcard basketball.  Pilots are guaranteed to make at least an exciting run at Gonzaga, et al but usually fail at the end.  I'd have to check; maybe they did beat St. Mary's recently.  They'll probably always finish in the middle of the WCC.  Now having said all that, I'm sure they'll surprise this year.  Hope so, as we will see a game for parents' weekend in February.

[jacketree]

I'm not so sure Reveno is that obvious.  I've paid attention to the Pilots (or Pillows, usually, in basketball at crunch time) since my daughter matriculated there 3 years ago.  Lacking football and hating soccer, men's hoops is about all that is left for her on campus. (She started her hoops fandom with Brevin Knight and Art Lee back when.) 

They play hard, but never with much skill, and I can't stand flashcard basketball.  Pilots are guaranteed to make at least an exciting run at Gonzaga, et al but usually fail at the end.  I'd have to check; maybe they did beat St. Mary's recently.  They'll probably always finish in the middle of the WCC.  Now having said all that, I'm sure they'll surprise this year.  Hope so, as we will see a game for parents' weekend in February.

[97fan]

You hate flashcard basketball? What did you think of the Mike Montgomery era at Stanford?

Portland has averaged 20 wins over the last three seasons. (Last year they split with St. Mary's but lost twice to Gonzaga.) Before Reveno got there, that program was really in the dumps. In fact I was only vaguely aware that it was a D-I program.

[97fan]

You hate flashcard basketball? What did you think of the Mike Montgomery era at Stanford?

Portland has averaged 20 wins over the last three seasons. (Last year they split with St. Mary's but lost twice to Gonzaga.) Before Reveno got there, that program was really in the dumps. In fact I was only vaguely aware that it was a D-I program.

[washingtonismoney]

I'm not particularly concerned about the semantics of positioning. Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan refuse to be called centers even though that's what they are.

In college, no one considers the Plumlee brothers centers, yet one or the other is often the only big man on the floor.

[washingtonismoney]

I'm not particularly concerned about the semantics of positioning. Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan refuse to be called centers even though that's what they are.

In college, no one considers the Plumlee brothers centers, yet one or the other is often the only big man on the floor.

[washingtonismoney]

Well, it depends on how you define "successful."

The Plumlee brothers are no one's definition of big, and Duke often surrounds one of them with four shooters, and they do well enough. I remember those late Oregon teams under Kent were able to make March Madness and do OK (of course, Kent was fired, so...). It seems like midmajor teams routinely trot out smallish lineups and succeed. College basketball is a much different beast than the pros.

[washingtonismoney]

Well, it depends on how you define "successful."

The Plumlee brothers are no one's definition of big, and Duke often surrounds one of them with four shooters, and they do well enough. I remember those late Oregon teams under Kent were able to make March Madness and do OK (of course, Kent was fired, so...). It seems like midmajor teams routinely trot out smallish lineups and succeed. College basketball is a much different beast than the pros.

[jacketree]

Well maybe God intended basketball to be played at a mediocre level? :-\

No, I still hate flashcard basketball and the Monty era pre-Brevin was entirely frustrating to this fan. Won't name names, but a certain put-back whiff to lose against Arizona encapsulated that entire vibe.  I still think Montgomery, while a very good coach, had his program elevated by sheer luck out of West Orange, NJ.

I'm disappointed by Dawkins' performance to date. I thought he would be better. Actually I'm essentially taking a sabbatical from fervent college hoops until one of my teams shows something. It does free up a lot of time in March, however. Next year I will probably be able to redo the deck and get some pavers installed with a new fire pit.

Yeah, Reveno has averaged exactly 20 wins over the past three years, but this will be his sixth season there and he has yet to crack .500 overall or make a real post-season tournament. (Don't you have to pay to be in the CIT?) To be fair, the WCC has one or two good teams he can't get past and limited opportunities for at-large berths.  Sure they sucked before, but in my own undergrad experience Bobby Cremins took all of four years to metamorphose a 4-23 GT team (258th out of 264 D1 teams), and a program with zero tradition outside of shocking Kentucky a few times in the 1950s, into an ACC Champion that came within six points of the Final Four against Patrick Ewing. And that ACC was absolutely loaded with good teams and talent. (The Len Bias Terps finished sixth IIRC.)  Hey, it's just like my opinion, man, but I am not pining for Reveno.

[jacketree]

Well maybe God intended basketball to be played at a mediocre level? :-\

No, I still hate flashcard basketball and the Monty era pre-Brevin was entirely frustrating to this fan. Won't name names, but a certain put-back whiff to lose against Arizona encapsulated that entire vibe.  I still think Montgomery, while a very good coach, had his program elevated by sheer luck out of West Orange, NJ.

I'm disappointed by Dawkins' performance to date. I thought he would be better. Actually I'm essentially taking a sabbatical from fervent college hoops until one of my teams shows something. It does free up a lot of time in March, however. Next year I will probably be able to redo the deck and get some pavers installed with a new fire pit.

Yeah, Reveno has averaged exactly 20 wins over the past three years, but this will be his sixth season there and he has yet to crack .500 overall or make a real post-season tournament. (Don't you have to pay to be in the CIT?) To be fair, the WCC has one or two good teams he can't get past and limited opportunities for at-large berths.  Sure they sucked before, but in my own undergrad experience Bobby Cremins took all of four years to metamorphose a 4-23 GT team (258th out of 264 D1 teams), and a program with zero tradition outside of shocking Kentucky a few times in the 1950s, into an ACC Champion that came within six points of the Final Four against Patrick Ewing. And that ACC was absolutely loaded with good teams and talent. (The Len Bias Terps finished sixth IIRC.)  Hey, it's just like my opinion, man, but I am not pining for Reveno.

[gtrplyr1]

I think the big concern with Dawkins is that last year's team never got better. It got worse, really. And there are ways to justify that (freshman fatigue, etc.) but the guy is lifeless on the sidelines. It's infuriating to watch.

[gtrplyr1]

I think the big concern with Dawkins is that last year's team never got better. It got worse, really. And there are ways to justify that (freshman fatigue, etc.) but the guy is lifeless on the sidelines. It's infuriating to watch.

[fullmetal]

Dawkins has been realizing how much goes into coaching...and how much coaching depends on recruiting.

[fullmetal]

Dawkins has been realizing how much goes into coaching...and how much coaching depends on recruiting.

[mark3k]

You really think we're going to be successful with a bunch of skinny 6-9 guys in the low post, no matter we call them? I don't. Josh Owens performed heroically in an out-of-position role last season.

The Fab Five seemed to do OK (not that I'm suggesting we have 5 players of that caliber, or compensation, here) and I'm not sure I'd call either Chris Webber or Juwan Howard a "Center" (both were 6'9" IIRC, and Jalen, Jimmy and Ray were all guards).  I haven't seen him, but while Grant is currently only listed at 6'8", he's supposed to be relatively thick, for a high school kid, who's probably not done growing or putting on muscle.  Just as JH, and now DS, proved in football, IMHO, you put your best players out there and a good coach will figure out which "formations" and systems to use to make the most of what he's got.  TJ was never capable of doing that, from what I saw (unless you give him credit for coming up with the high-school level "just pass the ball into Brook and Robin and watch them score" strategy).

As much as I like to support our players, and generally tend to agree with you, Garvin, I'm not sure I'd say that Josh Owen "performed heroically" last year either.  I found his play to be frustratingly inconsistent.

[mark3k]

You really think we're going to be successful with a bunch of skinny 6-9 guys in the low post, no matter we call them? I don't. Josh Owens performed heroically in an out-of-position role last season.

The Fab Five seemed to do OK (not that I'm suggesting we have 5 players of that caliber, or compensation, here) and I'm not sure I'd call either Chris Webber or Juwan Howard a "Center" (both were 6'9" IIRC, and Jalen, Jimmy and Ray were all guards).  I haven't seen him, but while Grant is currently only listed at 6'8", he's supposed to be relatively thick, for a high school kid, who's probably not done growing or putting on muscle.  Just as JH, and now DS, proved in football, IMHO, you put your best players out there and a good coach will figure out which "formations" and systems to use to make the most of what he's got.  TJ was never capable of doing that, from what I saw (unless you give him credit for coming up with the high-school level "just pass the ball into Brook and Robin and watch them score" strategy).

As much as I like to support our players, and generally tend to agree with you, Garvin, I'm not sure I'd say that Josh Owen "performed heroically" last year either.  I found his play to be frustratingly inconsistent.

[washingtonismoney]

Kenpom.com has us 20th in the nation in effective height. We were a few ticks above average in blocks (9.7% of all shots versus 9.2% average), and were a decent rebounding team on the defensive end (allowing 30% of misses as offensive rebounds for 80th in the country) and below average on the offensive end. Some of that weakness might be explained by scheme--did Dawkins send enough guys to crash the board?--as much as height.

I don't really see height or lack of it as an issue on the traditional statistics used to assess weakness in height. Instead I see three point shooting defense (36.4%, 277th in the country), two-point shooting (46.8%, 212th in the country) and inexperience (1.15 years, 313th in the country) as the primary problems for the team.

To return to the original topic, we don't really know what kind of power forward Verhoeven is anyway. Is he a thin power forward? If so, then, yeah, it won't help those issues (i.e. help raise the team from above average to good). Is he instead a thick power forward, a la Paul Millsap? If so, the concern that he just doesn't have the proper aesthetic label is silly. Given that he's been described as a Mark Madsen type, I'm more inclined to the latter description than the former.

[washingtonismoney]

Kenpom.com has us 20th in the nation in effective height. We were a few ticks above average in blocks (9.7% of all shots versus 9.2% average), and were a decent rebounding team on the defensive end (allowing 30% of misses as offensive rebounds for 80th in the country) and below average on the offensive end. Some of that weakness might be explained by scheme--did Dawkins send enough guys to crash the board?--as much as height.

I don't really see height or lack of it as an issue on the traditional statistics used to assess weakness in height. Instead I see three point shooting defense (36.4%, 277th in the country), two-point shooting (46.8%, 212th in the country) and inexperience (1.15 years, 313th in the country) as the primary problems for the team.

To return to the original topic, we don't really know what kind of power forward Verhoeven is anyway. Is he a thin power forward? If so, then, yeah, it won't help those issues (i.e. help raise the team from above average to good). Is he instead a thick power forward, a la Paul Millsap? If so, the concern that he just doesn't have the proper aesthetic label is silly. Given that he's been described as a Mark Madsen type, I'm more inclined to the latter description than the former.

[gtrplyr1]

He may or may not be John Gage's twin, by the way:
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basket...-verhoeven

[gtrplyr1]

He may or may not be John Gage's twin, by the way:
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basket...-verhoeven