01-30-2022, 10:24 PM
Ouch, they got shut out by Canada in the CONCACAF.
BC
BC
Outside Topic USMNT
02-01-2022, 10:22 AM
A few thoughts on this, first of all Canada has developed a very good team, with some talented players, but most of all they have a coach who gets the most out of his players. In this game Canada was actually missing their best player in Davies, and another solid player. They played a bit of a bunker and counter style, and capitalized on some USA mistakes.
I think the USMNT has the most talent in Concacaf, with Mexico a close second place. Gregg B is a mediocre coach, with some perplexing roster decisions, and clearly has his favorites in MLS based players. His system has been mostly sound defensively, but lacks a lot of creativity offensively, and we have a clear lack of finish in the final third.
We are still in a very good place to qualify for the World cup, but Panama is the one team that could force us into a playoff, instead of an automatic qualification. The US needs to win tomorrow at home vs Honduras, and their home game in the next window against Panama. Next window the US also plays two historically tough road matches at Mexico and Costa Rica, hopefully we won't need results in those games...
I think the USMNT has the most talent in Concacaf, with Mexico a close second place. Gregg B is a mediocre coach, with some perplexing roster decisions, and clearly has his favorites in MLS based players. His system has been mostly sound defensively, but lacks a lot of creativity offensively, and we have a clear lack of finish in the final third.
We are still in a very good place to qualify for the World cup, but Panama is the one team that could force us into a playoff, instead of an automatic qualification. The US needs to win tomorrow at home vs Honduras, and their home game in the next window against Panama. Next window the US also plays two historically tough road matches at Mexico and Costa Rica, hopefully we won't need results in those games...
A few thoughts on this, first of all Canada has developed a very good team, with some talented players, but most of all they have a coach who gets the most out of his players. In this game Canada was actually missing their best player in Davies, and another solid player. They played a bit of a bunker and counter style, and capitalized on some USA mistakes.
I think the USMNT has the most talent in Concacaf, with Mexico a close second place. Gregg B is a mediocre coach, with some perplexing roster decisions, and clearly has his favorites in MLS based players. His system has been mostly sound defensively, but lacks a lot of creativity offensively, and we have a clear lack of finish in the final third.
We are still in a very good place to qualify for the World cup, but Panama is the one team that could force us into a playoff, instead of an automatic qualification. The US needs to win tomorrow at home vs Honduras, and their home game in the next window against Panama. Next window the US also plays two historically tough road matches at Mexico and Costa Rica, hopefully we won't need results in those games...
I think the USMNT has the most talent in Concacaf, with Mexico a close second place. Gregg B is a mediocre coach, with some perplexing roster decisions, and clearly has his favorites in MLS based players. His system has been mostly sound defensively, but lacks a lot of creativity offensively, and we have a clear lack of finish in the final third.
We are still in a very good place to qualify for the World cup, but Panama is the one team that could force us into a playoff, instead of an automatic qualification. The US needs to win tomorrow at home vs Honduras, and their home game in the next window against Panama. Next window the US also plays two historically tough road matches at Mexico and Costa Rica, hopefully we won't need results in those games...
02-01-2022, 12:00 PM
Agree with a lot of the above except that it is Mexico who has the most talent in Concacaf. Mexico's weakness is defending speed and set plays in the box (corners and free kicks).
Everyone, including the US, plays Mexico by parking the bus in front of their goal and counterattacking when given a chance.
Canada is surprisingly good in this WCQ. It will be Canada, the US, and Mexico directly qualifying to Qatar in some order, with Panama taking on New Zealand to also qualify.
Everyone, including the US, plays Mexico by parking the bus in front of their goal and counterattacking when given a chance.
Canada is surprisingly good in this WCQ. It will be Canada, the US, and Mexico directly qualifying to Qatar in some order, with Panama taking on New Zealand to also qualify.
Agree with a lot of the above except that it is Mexico who has the most talent in Concacaf. Mexico's weakness is defending speed and set plays in the box (corners and free kicks).
Everyone, including the US, plays Mexico by parking the bus in front of their goal and counterattacking when given a chance.
Canada is surprisingly good in this WCQ. It will be Canada, the US, and Mexico directly qualifying to Qatar in some order, with Panama taking on New Zealand to also qualify.
Everyone, including the US, plays Mexico by parking the bus in front of their goal and counterattacking when given a chance.
Canada is surprisingly good in this WCQ. It will be Canada, the US, and Mexico directly qualifying to Qatar in some order, with Panama taking on New Zealand to also qualify.
02-01-2022, 12:45 PM
(02-01-2022, 12:00 PM)PVTree Wrote: Agree with a lot of the above except that it is Mexico who has the most talent in Concacaf. Mexico's weakness is defending speed and set plays in the box (corners and free kicks).
Everyone, including the US, plays Mexico by parking the bus in front of their goal and counterattacking when given a chance.
Canada is surprisingly good in this WCQ. It will be Canada, the US, and Mexico directly qualifying to Qatar in some order, with Panama taking on New Zealand to also qualify.
Disagree. Mexico's roster has aged and Tata hasn't successfully incorporated the next generation. The US is less experienced but more talented. The US certainly didn't park the bus when they played them in the qualifier in Cincinnati in November. For the entire second half the US completely controlled the game and both goals came from open play, neither from a set piece. Totally false that the US was simply counterattacking. Mexico had better chances in the first half but the game was wide open, the US was not bunkering. Pretty much the same in the Nations League final in the summer.
I agree with everything Treefence wrote. Canada has been the best team in CONCACAF this cycle, they drew with Mexico at the Azteca and beat them at home, just as they drew with the US in Nashville and beat us at home. It's not embarrassing to lose to Canada on a frozen astroturf field in Ontario, especially given the US had more and better chances. But what was bad was the US's lack of cohesion and urgency. Canada had a clear game plan and was organized and gritty. Berhalter hasn't established a clear identity or consistent attacking plan through fifteen qualifying games, he's an MLS caliber coach leading players who play for big clubs in Europe and start Champions League games.
Canada has a four point lead in the table with the US, Mexico and Panama all within one point. As Treefence said, beating Honduras (currently bottom of the table) is an absolute must-win tomorrow, and then the Panama game will be critical to avoiding the playoff.
(02-01-2022, 12:00 PM)PVTree Wrote: Agree with a lot of the above except that it is Mexico who has the most talent in Concacaf. Mexico's weakness is defending speed and set plays in the box (corners and free kicks).
Everyone, including the US, plays Mexico by parking the bus in front of their goal and counterattacking when given a chance.
Canada is surprisingly good in this WCQ. It will be Canada, the US, and Mexico directly qualifying to Qatar in some order, with Panama taking on New Zealand to also qualify.
Disagree. Mexico's roster has aged and Tata hasn't successfully incorporated the next generation. The US is less experienced but more talented. The US certainly didn't park the bus when they played them in the qualifier in Cincinnati in November. For the entire second half the US completely controlled the game and both goals came from open play, neither from a set piece. Totally false that the US was simply counterattacking. Mexico had better chances in the first half but the game was wide open, the US was not bunkering. Pretty much the same in the Nations League final in the summer.
I agree with everything Treefence wrote. Canada has been the best team in CONCACAF this cycle, they drew with Mexico at the Azteca and beat them at home, just as they drew with the US in Nashville and beat us at home. It's not embarrassing to lose to Canada on a frozen astroturf field in Ontario, especially given the US had more and better chances. But what was bad was the US's lack of cohesion and urgency. Canada had a clear game plan and was organized and gritty. Berhalter hasn't established a clear identity or consistent attacking plan through fifteen qualifying games, he's an MLS caliber coach leading players who play for big clubs in Europe and start Champions League games.
Canada has a four point lead in the table with the US, Mexico and Panama all within one point. As Treefence said, beating Honduras (currently bottom of the table) is an absolute must-win tomorrow, and then the Panama game will be critical to avoiding the playoff.
02-01-2022, 04:26 PM
The question was which team is more talented, not which coach is currently best utilizing/building their respective teams.
There's a lot of discontent with Tata for not calling up and giving a chance to the new generation. Once that does happen, I believe that Mexico will show it has a deeper pool of talent.
The US did not play too defensive in Cincy. That's true. That's one game. Let's see how the US lines up at Azteca.
There's a lot of discontent with Tata for not calling up and giving a chance to the new generation. Once that does happen, I believe that Mexico will show it has a deeper pool of talent.
The US did not play too defensive in Cincy. That's true. That's one game. Let's see how the US lines up at Azteca.
The question was which team is more talented, not which coach is currently best utilizing/building their respective teams.
There's a lot of discontent with Tata for not calling up and giving a chance to the new generation. Once that does happen, I believe that Mexico will show it has a deeper pool of talent.
The US did not play too defensive in Cincy. That's true. That's one game. Let's see how the US lines up at Azteca.
There's a lot of discontent with Tata for not calling up and giving a chance to the new generation. Once that does happen, I believe that Mexico will show it has a deeper pool of talent.
The US did not play too defensive in Cincy. That's true. That's one game. Let's see how the US lines up at Azteca.
02-01-2022, 05:58 PM
(02-01-2022, 04:26 PM)PVTree Wrote: The question was which team is more talented, not which coach is currently best utilizing/building their respective teams.
There's a lot of discontent with Tata for not calling up and giving a chance to the new generation. Once that does happen, I believe that Mexico will show it has a deeper pool of talent.
The US did not play too defensive in Cincy. That's true. That's one game. Let's see how the US lines up at Azteca.
Well, you've shifted the discussion to the future. At present, I maintain that the US has more talent on the field than Mexico. It's far from definitive but the US has many more players in the big five leagues, Champions League group stages and knockout stages, etc. At some point Mexico has to integrate the next generation but there's only one window remaining in qualifying.
The US outshot Mexico 18-8 in the first qualifier, far from bunkering. Of course I expect a more conservative approach at the Azteca given the altitude and the current standings, but for better or worse the US has not played a counter attacking style for some time.
Anyway, I'm glad to find posters here following the USMNT and World Cup qualifiers.
(02-01-2022, 04:26 PM)PVTree Wrote: The question was which team is more talented, not which coach is currently best utilizing/building their respective teams.
There's a lot of discontent with Tata for not calling up and giving a chance to the new generation. Once that does happen, I believe that Mexico will show it has a deeper pool of talent.
The US did not play too defensive in Cincy. That's true. That's one game. Let's see how the US lines up at Azteca.
Well, you've shifted the discussion to the future. At present, I maintain that the US has more talent on the field than Mexico. It's far from definitive but the US has many more players in the big five leagues, Champions League group stages and knockout stages, etc. At some point Mexico has to integrate the next generation but there's only one window remaining in qualifying.
The US outshot Mexico 18-8 in the first qualifier, far from bunkering. Of course I expect a more conservative approach at the Azteca given the altitude and the current standings, but for better or worse the US has not played a counter attacking style for some time.
Anyway, I'm glad to find posters here following the USMNT and World Cup qualifiers.
02-01-2022, 07:38 PM
I am so happy that finally Americans are playing along side other top world talent, I myself do not care for GGG as far as a manager but clearly he is not the man to lead these young men to anywhere near their potential after this WC cycle. (IF USMNT actually make it) GGG is the manager for immediate future and that is what it is. I think we can all relate to that.
I am so happy that finally Americans are playing along side other top world talent, I myself do not care for GGG as far as a manager but clearly he is not the man to lead these young men to anywhere near their potential after this WC cycle. (IF USMNT actually make it) GGG is the manager for immediate future and that is what it is. I think we can all relate to that.
02-02-2022, 09:58 AM
I think one of the most frustrating takeaways from the loss to Canada is that Gregg B said after the game the USA dominated the game. Then later he said after rewatch that he realized Canada was playing a low block, essentially letting US have possession, but limiting their chances, and counting on the counter press for offense. If a national team coach isn't able to realize that mid game, he has no business being the coach, let alone for a top 20 team in the world.
Regardless of whether you think Mexico or the USA have the most talent, I think it's close enough that world cup qualifying for either team shouldn't be difficult in Concacaf, yet here are, Panama breathing down both teams necks, potentially forcing one of them into a playoff. I don't think Gregg is in danger of being fired, for many reasons, but most of all it's probably too late to make a change to have a positive effect. If we do somehow miss qualifying in this cycle, it would be a no brainer to fire Gregg, and I wonder if Jesse Marsch would still be available.
Regardless of whether you think Mexico or the USA have the most talent, I think it's close enough that world cup qualifying for either team shouldn't be difficult in Concacaf, yet here are, Panama breathing down both teams necks, potentially forcing one of them into a playoff. I don't think Gregg is in danger of being fired, for many reasons, but most of all it's probably too late to make a change to have a positive effect. If we do somehow miss qualifying in this cycle, it would be a no brainer to fire Gregg, and I wonder if Jesse Marsch would still be available.
I think one of the most frustrating takeaways from the loss to Canada is that Gregg B said after the game the USA dominated the game. Then later he said after rewatch that he realized Canada was playing a low block, essentially letting US have possession, but limiting their chances, and counting on the counter press for offense. If a national team coach isn't able to realize that mid game, he has no business being the coach, let alone for a top 20 team in the world.
Regardless of whether you think Mexico or the USA have the most talent, I think it's close enough that world cup qualifying for either team shouldn't be difficult in Concacaf, yet here are, Panama breathing down both teams necks, potentially forcing one of them into a playoff. I don't think Gregg is in danger of being fired, for many reasons, but most of all it's probably too late to make a change to have a positive effect. If we do somehow miss qualifying in this cycle, it would be a no brainer to fire Gregg, and I wonder if Jesse Marsch would still be available.
Regardless of whether you think Mexico or the USA have the most talent, I think it's close enough that world cup qualifying for either team shouldn't be difficult in Concacaf, yet here are, Panama breathing down both teams necks, potentially forcing one of them into a playoff. I don't think Gregg is in danger of being fired, for many reasons, but most of all it's probably too late to make a change to have a positive effect. If we do somehow miss qualifying in this cycle, it would be a no brainer to fire Gregg, and I wonder if Jesse Marsch would still be available.
(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: I think one of the most frustrating takeaways from the loss to Canada is that Gregg B said after the game the USA dominated the game. Then later he said after rewatch that he realized Canada was playing a low block, essentially letting US have possession, but limiting their chances, and counting on the counter press for offense. If a national team coach isn't able to realize that mid game, he has no business being the coach, let alone for a top 20 team in the world.
That's also how Canada played against the US in the qualifier in Nashville (even with Alphonso Davies on the field) so it shouldn't have come as a surprise.
(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: Regardless of whether you think Mexico or the USA have the most talent, I think it's close enough that world cup qualifying for either team shouldn't be difficult in Concacaf, yet here are, Panama breathing down both teams necks, potentially forcing one of them into a playoff.
Agreed, it seems ridiculous, but almost every qualifying cycle ends up this way (for both the US and Mexico) so I suppose we underestimate CONCACAF qualifying.
(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: I don't think Gregg is in danger of being fired, for many reasons, but most of all it's probably too late to make a change to have a positive effect. If we do somehow miss qualifying in this cycle, it would be a no brainer to fire Gregg, and I wonder if Jesse Marsch would still be available.
I think it's a moot point because even though he's currently unemployed Marsch seems committed to European club coaching. In any case, it's pretty risky to change coaches between qualifying and the tournament itself, and the players seem to like Gregg a lot, i.e. he hasn't lost the team.
But even assuming the US qualifies, and even if the US reaches the knockout rounds, it behooves the US to upgrade. It's a very good job with the added attraction of hosting in 2026. US Soccer should aim high, I just don't know if the internal politics would permit it.
(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: I think one of the most frustrating takeaways from the loss to Canada is that Gregg B said after the game the USA dominated the game. Then later he said after rewatch that he realized Canada was playing a low block, essentially letting US have possession, but limiting their chances, and counting on the counter press for offense. If a national team coach isn't able to realize that mid game, he has no business being the coach, let alone for a top 20 team in the world.
That's also how Canada played against the US in the qualifier in Nashville (even with Alphonso Davies on the field) so it shouldn't have come as a surprise.
(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: Regardless of whether you think Mexico or the USA have the most talent, I think it's close enough that world cup qualifying for either team shouldn't be difficult in Concacaf, yet here are, Panama breathing down both teams necks, potentially forcing one of them into a playoff.
Agreed, it seems ridiculous, but almost every qualifying cycle ends up this way (for both the US and Mexico) so I suppose we underestimate CONCACAF qualifying.
(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: I don't think Gregg is in danger of being fired, for many reasons, but most of all it's probably too late to make a change to have a positive effect. If we do somehow miss qualifying in this cycle, it would be a no brainer to fire Gregg, and I wonder if Jesse Marsch would still be available.
I think it's a moot point because even though he's currently unemployed Marsch seems committed to European club coaching. In any case, it's pretty risky to change coaches between qualifying and the tournament itself, and the players seem to like Gregg a lot, i.e. he hasn't lost the team.
But even assuming the US qualifies, and even if the US reaches the knockout rounds, it behooves the US to upgrade. It's a very good job with the added attraction of hosting in 2026. US Soccer should aim high, I just don't know if the internal politics would permit it.
02-02-2022, 04:52 PM
(02-02-2022, 11:28 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: I think one of the most frustrating takeaways from the loss to Canada is that Gregg B said after the game the USA dominated the game. Then later he said after rewatch that he realized Canada was playing a low block, essentially letting US have possession, but limiting their chances, and counting on the counter press for offense. If a national team coach isn't able to realize that mid game, he has no business being the coach, let alone for a top 20 team in the world.
That's also how Canada played against the US in the qualifier in Nashville (even with Alphonso Davies on the field) so it shouldn't have come as a surprise.
(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: Regardless of whether you think Mexico or the USA have the most talent, I think it's close enough that world cup qualifying for either team shouldn't be difficult in Concacaf, yet here are, Panama breathing down both teams necks, potentially forcing one of them into a playoff.
Agreed, it seems ridiculous, but almost every qualifying cycle ends up this way (for both the US and Mexico) so I suppose we underestimate CONCACAF qualifying.
(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: I don't think Gregg is in danger of being fired, for many reasons, but most of all it's probably too late to make a change to have a positive effect. If we do somehow miss qualifying in this cycle, it would be a no brainer to fire Gregg, and I wonder if Jesse Marsch would still be available.
I think it's a moot point because even though he's currently unemployed Marsch seems committed to European club coaching. In any case, it's pretty risky to change coaches between qualifying and the tournament itself, and the players seem to like Gregg a lot, i.e. he hasn't lost the team.
But even assuming the US qualifies, and even if the US reaches the knockout rounds, it behooves the US to upgrade. It's a very good job with the added attraction of hosting in 2026. US Soccer should aim high, I just don't know if the internal politics would permit it.
An email from a colleague who is a soccer aficionado is copied below. I defer to (and agree with) almost all of his soccer takes, including these:
Our MLS coach has announced his starting lineup for today’s must-win game. NOT starting: the FOAS ["Future of American Soccer"], 23 year old Christian Pulisic, our best player. Starting instead: 27 year old Farm alum J-Mo, who has not started a real game since getting injured (again) last February (he’s now missed two of the last three MLS seasons with injuries) and hasn’t started for the USMNT since 2017.
NOT starting: 20 year old Brendan Aaronson, one of our most dynamic young players, who currently plays in Austria and has Bundesliga and EPL teams trying to buy him. Starting instead: 26 year old MLS player Kellyn Acosta.
Also NOT starting: 21 year old Sergino Dest, who plays for Barcelona. 19 year old Yunus Musah.
Acosta and J-Mo should not even be on the team that goes to Qatar next December. And they are starting over younger, better players who will definitely be on the WC team?? WTF? Some coaches – Kyle Shanahan falls into this category – intentionally make bizarre playing-time decisions so they can say “Look how smart I am! I can win without my best players!” So Kyle doesn’t get Deebo – unquestionably the 49ers best offensive player – the ball in the last 12 minutes of a must-win playoff game, and MLS Coach doesn’t start several of his best players in a must-win WC qualifier. We still should win – it’s last place Honduras, playing in weather colder than any of them have ever experienced, and we have way more talent. But if the USMNT loses or ties today, while subjecting the players to negative 20 temperatures, everyone must be fired.
(02-02-2022, 11:28 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: I think one of the most frustrating takeaways from the loss to Canada is that Gregg B said after the game the USA dominated the game. Then later he said after rewatch that he realized Canada was playing a low block, essentially letting US have possession, but limiting their chances, and counting on the counter press for offense. If a national team coach isn't able to realize that mid game, he has no business being the coach, let alone for a top 20 team in the world.
That's also how Canada played against the US in the qualifier in Nashville (even with Alphonso Davies on the field) so it shouldn't have come as a surprise.
(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: Regardless of whether you think Mexico or the USA have the most talent, I think it's close enough that world cup qualifying for either team shouldn't be difficult in Concacaf, yet here are, Panama breathing down both teams necks, potentially forcing one of them into a playoff.
Agreed, it seems ridiculous, but almost every qualifying cycle ends up this way (for both the US and Mexico) so I suppose we underestimate CONCACAF qualifying.
(02-02-2022, 09:58 AM)Treefence Wrote: I don't think Gregg is in danger of being fired, for many reasons, but most of all it's probably too late to make a change to have a positive effect. If we do somehow miss qualifying in this cycle, it would be a no brainer to fire Gregg, and I wonder if Jesse Marsch would still be available.
I think it's a moot point because even though he's currently unemployed Marsch seems committed to European club coaching. In any case, it's pretty risky to change coaches between qualifying and the tournament itself, and the players seem to like Gregg a lot, i.e. he hasn't lost the team.
But even assuming the US qualifies, and even if the US reaches the knockout rounds, it behooves the US to upgrade. It's a very good job with the added attraction of hosting in 2026. US Soccer should aim high, I just don't know if the internal politics would permit it.
An email from a colleague who is a soccer aficionado is copied below. I defer to (and agree with) almost all of his soccer takes, including these:
Our MLS coach has announced his starting lineup for today’s must-win game. NOT starting: the FOAS ["Future of American Soccer"], 23 year old Christian Pulisic, our best player. Starting instead: 27 year old Farm alum J-Mo, who has not started a real game since getting injured (again) last February (he’s now missed two of the last three MLS seasons with injuries) and hasn’t started for the USMNT since 2017.
NOT starting: 20 year old Brendan Aaronson, one of our most dynamic young players, who currently plays in Austria and has Bundesliga and EPL teams trying to buy him. Starting instead: 26 year old MLS player Kellyn Acosta.
Also NOT starting: 21 year old Sergino Dest, who plays for Barcelona. 19 year old Yunus Musah.
Acosta and J-Mo should not even be on the team that goes to Qatar next December. And they are starting over younger, better players who will definitely be on the WC team?? WTF? Some coaches – Kyle Shanahan falls into this category – intentionally make bizarre playing-time decisions so they can say “Look how smart I am! I can win without my best players!” So Kyle doesn’t get Deebo – unquestionably the 49ers best offensive player – the ball in the last 12 minutes of a must-win playoff game, and MLS Coach doesn’t start several of his best players in a must-win WC qualifier. We still should win – it’s last place Honduras, playing in weather colder than any of them have ever experienced, and we have way more talent. But if the USMNT loses or ties today, while subjecting the players to negative 20 temperatures, everyone must be fired.
02-02-2022, 05:24 PM
(02-02-2022, 04:52 PM)teejers1 Wrote: An email from a colleague who is a soccer aficionado is copied below. I defer to (and agree with) almost all of his soccer takes, including these:
Our MLS coach has announced his starting lineup for today’s must-win game. NOT starting: the FOAS ["Future of American Soccer"], 23 year old Christian Pulisic, our best player. Starting instead: 27 year old Farm alum J-Mo, who has not started a real game since getting injured (again) last February (he’s now missed two of the last three MLS seasons with injuries) and hasn’t started for the USMNT since 2017.
NOT starting: 20 year old Brendan Aaronson, one of our most dynamic young players, who currently plays in Austria and has Bundesliga and EPL teams trying to buy him. Starting instead: 26 year old MLS player Kellyn Acosta.
Also NOT starting: 21 year old Sergino Dest, who plays for Barcelona. 19 year old Yunus Musah.
Acosta and J-Mo should not even be on the team that goes to Qatar next December. And they are starting over younger, better players who will definitely be on the WC team?? WTF? Some coaches – Kyle Shanahan falls into this category – intentionally make bizarre playing-time decisions so they can say “Look how smart I am! I can win without my best players!” So Kyle doesn’t get Deebo – unquestionably the 49ers best offensive player – the ball in the last 12 minutes of a must-win playoff game, and MLS Coach doesn’t start several of his best players in a must-win WC qualifier. We still should win – it’s last place Honduras, playing in weather colder than any of them have ever experienced, and we have way more talent. But if the USMNT loses or ties today, while subjecting the players to negative 20 temperatures, everyone must be fired.
I'm critical of Berhalter in general but your friend's email contains some errors:
1. Aaronsen is a winger and Acosta is a defensive midfielder, so in no way in Acosta "starting instead" of Aaronsen. Acosta is starting in place of Adams, who is out with an injury. That's like saying that a wide receiver is starting instead of a quarterback.
2. J-Mo started for the Seattle Sounders in November, so it's not true that he hasn't started a "real game" since getting injured last year. He's been playing and looking fit. Whether he should start is another matter, but he's healthy again and was on the field at the end of the MLS season and in the game against Canada.
I do think tonight's lineups is bizarre, Berhalter better be right on this.
(02-02-2022, 04:52 PM)teejers1 Wrote: An email from a colleague who is a soccer aficionado is copied below. I defer to (and agree with) almost all of his soccer takes, including these:
Our MLS coach has announced his starting lineup for today’s must-win game. NOT starting: the FOAS ["Future of American Soccer"], 23 year old Christian Pulisic, our best player. Starting instead: 27 year old Farm alum J-Mo, who has not started a real game since getting injured (again) last February (he’s now missed two of the last three MLS seasons with injuries) and hasn’t started for the USMNT since 2017.
NOT starting: 20 year old Brendan Aaronson, one of our most dynamic young players, who currently plays in Austria and has Bundesliga and EPL teams trying to buy him. Starting instead: 26 year old MLS player Kellyn Acosta.
Also NOT starting: 21 year old Sergino Dest, who plays for Barcelona. 19 year old Yunus Musah.
Acosta and J-Mo should not even be on the team that goes to Qatar next December. And they are starting over younger, better players who will definitely be on the WC team?? WTF? Some coaches – Kyle Shanahan falls into this category – intentionally make bizarre playing-time decisions so they can say “Look how smart I am! I can win without my best players!” So Kyle doesn’t get Deebo – unquestionably the 49ers best offensive player – the ball in the last 12 minutes of a must-win playoff game, and MLS Coach doesn’t start several of his best players in a must-win WC qualifier. We still should win – it’s last place Honduras, playing in weather colder than any of them have ever experienced, and we have way more talent. But if the USMNT loses or ties today, while subjecting the players to negative 20 temperatures, everyone must be fired.
I'm critical of Berhalter in general but your friend's email contains some errors:
1. Aaronsen is a winger and Acosta is a defensive midfielder, so in no way in Acosta "starting instead" of Aaronsen. Acosta is starting in place of Adams, who is out with an injury. That's like saying that a wide receiver is starting instead of a quarterback.
2. J-Mo started for the Seattle Sounders in November, so it's not true that he hasn't started a "real game" since getting injured last year. He's been playing and looking fit. Whether he should start is another matter, but he's healthy again and was on the field at the end of the MLS season and in the game against Canada.
I do think tonight's lineups is bizarre, Berhalter better be right on this.
02-02-2022, 07:49 PM
Totally dominant 3-0 win against an overmatched opponent.
1) Acosta assisted on the first goal.
2) Acosta launched the free kick which Morris knocked down, resulting in Zimmerman knocking in the second goal.
3) Pulisic breaks his bad slump by coming off the bench fired up and scoring a goal almost right away.
1) Acosta assisted on the first goal.
2) Acosta launched the free kick which Morris knocked down, resulting in Zimmerman knocking in the second goal.
3) Pulisic breaks his bad slump by coming off the bench fired up and scoring a goal almost right away.
Totally dominant 3-0 win against an overmatched opponent.
1) Acosta assisted on the first goal.
2) Acosta launched the free kick which Morris knocked down, resulting in Zimmerman knocking in the second goal.
3) Pulisic breaks his bad slump by coming off the bench fired up and scoring a goal almost right away.
1) Acosta assisted on the first goal.
2) Acosta launched the free kick which Morris knocked down, resulting in Zimmerman knocking in the second goal.
3) Pulisic breaks his bad slump by coming off the bench fired up and scoring a goal almost right away.
No upsets in this stage. All teams expected to win did so. Canada, US, and Mexico won, along with Costa Rica.
This separates the top 3 teams by 4+ points from 4th place Panama. With 9 points still to dispute, it will be tough for Canada, US, and Mexico to be caught.
This separates the top 3 teams by 4+ points from 4th place Panama. With 9 points still to dispute, it will be tough for Canada, US, and Mexico to be caught.
No upsets in this stage. All teams expected to win did so. Canada, US, and Mexico won, along with Costa Rica.
This separates the top 3 teams by 4+ points from 4th place Panama. With 9 points still to dispute, it will be tough for Canada, US, and Mexico to be caught.
This separates the top 3 teams by 4+ points from 4th place Panama. With 9 points still to dispute, it will be tough for Canada, US, and Mexico to be caught.
02-03-2022, 12:38 AM
(02-02-2022, 05:24 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(02-02-2022, 04:52 PM)teejers1 Wrote: An email from a colleague who is a soccer aficionado is copied below. I defer to (and agree with) almost all of his soccer takes, including these:
Our MLS coach has announced his starting lineup for today’s must-win game. NOT starting: the FOAS ["Future of American Soccer"], 23 year old Christian Pulisic, our best player. Starting instead: 27 year old Farm alum J-Mo, who has not started a real game since getting injured (again) last February (he’s now missed two of the last three MLS seasons with injuries) and hasn’t started for the USMNT since 2017.
NOT starting: 20 year old Brendan Aaronson, one of our most dynamic young players, who currently plays in Austria and has Bundesliga and EPL teams trying to buy him. Starting instead: 26 year old MLS player Kellyn Acosta.
Also NOT starting: 21 year old Sergino Dest, who plays for Barcelona. 19 year old Yunus Musah.
Acosta and J-Mo should not even be on the team that goes to Qatar next December. And they are starting over younger, better players who will definitely be on the WC team?? WTF? Some coaches – Kyle Shanahan falls into this category – intentionally make bizarre playing-time decisions so they can say “Look how smart I am! I can win without my best players!” So Kyle doesn’t get Deebo – unquestionably the 49ers best offensive player – the ball in the last 12 minutes of a must-win playoff game, and MLS Coach doesn’t start several of his best players in a must-win WC qualifier. We still should win – it’s last place Honduras, playing in weather colder than any of them have ever experienced, and we have way more talent. But if the USMNT loses or ties today, while subjecting the players to negative 20 temperatures, everyone must be fired.
I'm critical of Berhalter in general but your friend's email contains some errors:
1. Aaronsen is a winger and Acosta is a defensive midfielder, so in no way in Acosta "starting instead" of Aaronsen. Acosta is starting in place of Adams, who is out with an injury. That's like saying that a wide receiver is starting instead of a quarterback.
2. J-Mo started for the Seattle Sounders in November, so it's not true that he hasn't started a "real game" since getting injured last year. He's been playing and looking fit. Whether he should start is another matter, but he's healthy again and was on the field at the end of the MLS season and in the game against Canada.
I do think tonight's lineups is bizarre, Berhalter better be right on this.
I'll relay your comments to my colleague for his reaction (I'm sure he'll enjoy the back and forth). BTW, not sure my friend even considers MLS "real" soccer, which is reserved for the top leagues in Europe.
BTW, good win. Playing in the freezing temps was stupid, really, but you have to love/admire the die hards in Minney. Great fans.
(02-02-2022, 05:24 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(02-02-2022, 04:52 PM)teejers1 Wrote: An email from a colleague who is a soccer aficionado is copied below. I defer to (and agree with) almost all of his soccer takes, including these:
Our MLS coach has announced his starting lineup for today’s must-win game. NOT starting: the FOAS ["Future of American Soccer"], 23 year old Christian Pulisic, our best player. Starting instead: 27 year old Farm alum J-Mo, who has not started a real game since getting injured (again) last February (he’s now missed two of the last three MLS seasons with injuries) and hasn’t started for the USMNT since 2017.
NOT starting: 20 year old Brendan Aaronson, one of our most dynamic young players, who currently plays in Austria and has Bundesliga and EPL teams trying to buy him. Starting instead: 26 year old MLS player Kellyn Acosta.
Also NOT starting: 21 year old Sergino Dest, who plays for Barcelona. 19 year old Yunus Musah.
Acosta and J-Mo should not even be on the team that goes to Qatar next December. And they are starting over younger, better players who will definitely be on the WC team?? WTF? Some coaches – Kyle Shanahan falls into this category – intentionally make bizarre playing-time decisions so they can say “Look how smart I am! I can win without my best players!” So Kyle doesn’t get Deebo – unquestionably the 49ers best offensive player – the ball in the last 12 minutes of a must-win playoff game, and MLS Coach doesn’t start several of his best players in a must-win WC qualifier. We still should win – it’s last place Honduras, playing in weather colder than any of them have ever experienced, and we have way more talent. But if the USMNT loses or ties today, while subjecting the players to negative 20 temperatures, everyone must be fired.
I'm critical of Berhalter in general but your friend's email contains some errors:
1. Aaronsen is a winger and Acosta is a defensive midfielder, so in no way in Acosta "starting instead" of Aaronsen. Acosta is starting in place of Adams, who is out with an injury. That's like saying that a wide receiver is starting instead of a quarterback.
2. J-Mo started for the Seattle Sounders in November, so it's not true that he hasn't started a "real game" since getting injured last year. He's been playing and looking fit. Whether he should start is another matter, but he's healthy again and was on the field at the end of the MLS season and in the game against Canada.
I do think tonight's lineups is bizarre, Berhalter better be right on this.
I'll relay your comments to my colleague for his reaction (I'm sure he'll enjoy the back and forth). BTW, not sure my friend even considers MLS "real" soccer, which is reserved for the top leagues in Europe.
BTW, good win. Playing in the freezing temps was stupid, really, but you have to love/admire the die hards in Minney. Great fans.
(02-03-2022, 12:38 AM)teejers1 Wrote: I'll relay your comments to my colleague for his reaction (I'm sure he'll enjoy the back and forth). BTW, not sure my friend even considers MLS "real" soccer, which is reserved for the top leagues in Europe.
That's just silly, because the USMNT couldn't field a starting eleven consisting solely of players who are currently first choice starters in the big five leagues in Europe, no team in CONCACAF could.
Bottom line: your friend was unaware that Morris had started recently for the Sounders. If that doesn't qualify as starting in a "real" game then what's the alternative? fielding a lineup of six players against eleven?
I'll add that I saw an interview with Landon Donovan (between the Canada and Honduras games) in which he said that when he was in a slump and pressing too much that Bob Bradley had benched him and brought him off the bench, and that it was the best thing that could have happened to him. Pulisic is indeed the US's best player as your friend said, but not only did starting on the bench last night work but it had the meta effect of communicating to the entire team (particularly Musuh and Dest) that starting spots are not automatic. Berhalter was vindicated last night, especially since all three goals were initiated by Acosta set pieces.
(02-03-2022, 12:38 AM)teejers1 Wrote: I'll relay your comments to my colleague for his reaction (I'm sure he'll enjoy the back and forth). BTW, not sure my friend even considers MLS "real" soccer, which is reserved for the top leagues in Europe.
That's just silly, because the USMNT couldn't field a starting eleven consisting solely of players who are currently first choice starters in the big five leagues in Europe, no team in CONCACAF could.
Bottom line: your friend was unaware that Morris had started recently for the Sounders. If that doesn't qualify as starting in a "real" game then what's the alternative? fielding a lineup of six players against eleven?
I'll add that I saw an interview with Landon Donovan (between the Canada and Honduras games) in which he said that when he was in a slump and pressing too much that Bob Bradley had benched him and brought him off the bench, and that it was the best thing that could have happened to him. Pulisic is indeed the US's best player as your friend said, but not only did starting on the bench last night work but it had the meta effect of communicating to the entire team (particularly Musuh and Dest) that starting spots are not automatic. Berhalter was vindicated last night, especially since all three goals were initiated by Acosta set pieces.
02-03-2022, 09:49 AM
(02-03-2022, 08:48 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(02-03-2022, 12:38 AM)teejers1 Wrote: I'll relay your comments to my colleague for his reaction (I'm sure he'll enjoy the back and forth). BTW, not sure my friend even considers MLS "real" soccer, which is reserved for the top leagues in Europe.
That's just silly, because the USMNT couldn't field a starting eleven consisting solely of players who are currently first choice starters in the big five leagues in Europe, no team in CONCACAF could.
Bottom line: your friend was unaware that Morris had started recently for the Sounders. If that doesn't qualify as starting in a "real" game then what's the alternative? fielding a lineup of six players against eleven?
I'll add that I saw an interview with Landon Donovan (between the Canada and Honduras games) in which he said that when he was in a slump and pressing too much that Bob Bradley had benched him and brought him off the bench, and that it was the best thing that could have happened to him. Pulisic is indeed the US's best player as your friend said, but not only did starting on the bench last night work but it had the meta effect of communicating to the entire team (particularly Musuh and Dest) that starting spots are not automatic. Berhalter was vindicated last night, especially since all three goals were initiated by Acosta set pieces.
Well . . . the reply:
PedanticFarmMLSfan13 is right that the lineup was bizarre. And maybe he’s right that J-Mo started an MLS game “in November” after getting injured in February and missing another season. I didn’t look up whether he made an end-of-season cameo. (Just looked it up: he played in 2 MLS games at the end of the season; Wikipedia didn’t say if he started those games). My point remains: he should not have started last night and doesn’t belong on the team. Players who are younger, better, and currently playing mid-season in Europe (e.g., Aaronson, Pulisic) are a better choice in a must-win game than an MLS guy who (apparently) played in only two games over the last 11+ months (i won’t say “a year”, even though J-Mo was injured in February 2021, because PedanticFarmMLSfan13 will whine “He was hurt in mid-February so it hasn’t been a year!”), the most recent being about three months ago. J-Mo didn’t do much, was the first guy subbed off, and his replacement, Pulisic, scored three minutes after entering the game.
As for Acosta, i didn’t mean he and Aaronson play the same position. But PedanticFarmMLSfan13’s football analogy is dumb. Football players are robots with very defined positions. (Although, yes, i would replace a QB with a WR if the choice was between Deebo and 49er third-string QB Nate Sudfield in a playoff game. Deebo behind center instead of a practice squad scrub would give you a better chance to win). Soccer is more free-flowing like basketball— in hoops, if the center gets injured, you don’t have to replace him with another center. I believe you find a way to play your best players (like Kerr’s ‘small ball‘ or whatever it’s called, and Magic playing center when Kareem was hurt in the 1980 NBA finals), rather than robotically putting in the backup when the starter gets hurt. Adams plays position 6. Acosta — who had a really good game last night — does too. But formations and positions can change. You don’t need a true 6, just as a hoop team doesn’t need a true center. Pulisic can play central midfield with Weston. Dest probably can too. Good coaches, which USMNT does not have, find a way to get their best guys on the field, especially in must-win games.
Acosta turned out to be a good choice last night, albeit against a terrible team. But i hope PedanticFarmMLSfan13 doesn’t think that makes Berhalter a good coach. US Soccer twitter is pumping up the win, but we beat the last place team, the only one that’s already eliminated from qualifying, a team that subbed out two players at halftime due to freaking hypothermia, and we did so on three set piece goals (two free kicks and a corner) — no goals from open play. An important win on an embarrassing night for US Soccer, but hardly evidence that we are a well-coached team.
On to the March games.
(02-03-2022, 08:48 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(02-03-2022, 12:38 AM)teejers1 Wrote: I'll relay your comments to my colleague for his reaction (I'm sure he'll enjoy the back and forth). BTW, not sure my friend even considers MLS "real" soccer, which is reserved for the top leagues in Europe.
That's just silly, because the USMNT couldn't field a starting eleven consisting solely of players who are currently first choice starters in the big five leagues in Europe, no team in CONCACAF could.
Bottom line: your friend was unaware that Morris had started recently for the Sounders. If that doesn't qualify as starting in a "real" game then what's the alternative? fielding a lineup of six players against eleven?
I'll add that I saw an interview with Landon Donovan (between the Canada and Honduras games) in which he said that when he was in a slump and pressing too much that Bob Bradley had benched him and brought him off the bench, and that it was the best thing that could have happened to him. Pulisic is indeed the US's best player as your friend said, but not only did starting on the bench last night work but it had the meta effect of communicating to the entire team (particularly Musuh and Dest) that starting spots are not automatic. Berhalter was vindicated last night, especially since all three goals were initiated by Acosta set pieces.
Well . . . the reply:
PedanticFarmMLSfan13 is right that the lineup was bizarre. And maybe he’s right that J-Mo started an MLS game “in November” after getting injured in February and missing another season. I didn’t look up whether he made an end-of-season cameo. (Just looked it up: he played in 2 MLS games at the end of the season; Wikipedia didn’t say if he started those games). My point remains: he should not have started last night and doesn’t belong on the team. Players who are younger, better, and currently playing mid-season in Europe (e.g., Aaronson, Pulisic) are a better choice in a must-win game than an MLS guy who (apparently) played in only two games over the last 11+ months (i won’t say “a year”, even though J-Mo was injured in February 2021, because PedanticFarmMLSfan13 will whine “He was hurt in mid-February so it hasn’t been a year!”), the most recent being about three months ago. J-Mo didn’t do much, was the first guy subbed off, and his replacement, Pulisic, scored three minutes after entering the game.
As for Acosta, i didn’t mean he and Aaronson play the same position. But PedanticFarmMLSfan13’s football analogy is dumb. Football players are robots with very defined positions. (Although, yes, i would replace a QB with a WR if the choice was between Deebo and 49er third-string QB Nate Sudfield in a playoff game. Deebo behind center instead of a practice squad scrub would give you a better chance to win). Soccer is more free-flowing like basketball— in hoops, if the center gets injured, you don’t have to replace him with another center. I believe you find a way to play your best players (like Kerr’s ‘small ball‘ or whatever it’s called, and Magic playing center when Kareem was hurt in the 1980 NBA finals), rather than robotically putting in the backup when the starter gets hurt. Adams plays position 6. Acosta — who had a really good game last night — does too. But formations and positions can change. You don’t need a true 6, just as a hoop team doesn’t need a true center. Pulisic can play central midfield with Weston. Dest probably can too. Good coaches, which USMNT does not have, find a way to get their best guys on the field, especially in must-win games.
Acosta turned out to be a good choice last night, albeit against a terrible team. But i hope PedanticFarmMLSfan13 doesn’t think that makes Berhalter a good coach. US Soccer twitter is pumping up the win, but we beat the last place team, the only one that’s already eliminated from qualifying, a team that subbed out two players at halftime due to freaking hypothermia, and we did so on three set piece goals (two free kicks and a corner) — no goals from open play. An important win on an embarrassing night for US Soccer, but hardly evidence that we are a well-coached team.
On to the March games.
Well, I'll reply in any case, even though your friend's approach of taking a personally insulting tone was unnecessary. It sounds like he has looked up where players play and some rudimentary statistics without actually watching these games themselves.
Soccer is indeed akin to basketball in terms of lineup construction. So I'll use a Stanford Men's Basketball analogy. There's no question that Delaire is more "talented" than Keefe. But good coaching isn't just putting your five most talented players on the floor, or the five players with the highest recruiting rankings. If Ingram and Jones are on the floor a complementary player such as Keefe can be much more valuable than a redundant scorer or a player who is trying to do too much. Stanford has frequently played better with Keefe on the floor instead of Delaire. And even in positionless basketball some specific functions need to be covered by someone, e.g. protecting the rim, guarding the wings, bringing the ball up against pressure. You can't just start five outside shooters because they are your best players.
This was the downfall of the England national team's "Golden Generation" in the aughts. They had an incredibly talented collection of players that repeatedly underachieved. One of the problems was that arguably their two best players (Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard) played the exact same position with a similar style of play. So they would either both play and more or less get in each other's way or one of them (usually Gerrard wide left) would play out of position. In retrospect everyone involved has said that they would have been better off playing one at a time with a complementary player to do the "dirty work".
I'm a brobdingnagian Aaronsen fan. But your friend explicitly said "Acosta instead of Aaronsen", meaning that either he didn't know that they play totally different positions or that (as he claims now) he was suggesting playing without a dedicated defensive midfielder, i.e. play your best ten field players regardless of how they fit together. With a four man back line (two central defenders) it would be highly unusual to play without a defensive midfielder, or to play someone out of position who will provide more attacking without much attention to protecting the back line (e.g. your friend's suggestion of Dest, who doesn't play much defense at all even when he's at outside back).
Regarding Aaronsen vs Morris, note that 1) Aaronsen played poorly against both El Salvador and Canada, so this could have been a message to both him and the team as a whole that starting spots are not automatic, 2) The Austria Bundesliga has been on break since December 12, so he hasn't been playing in "real" matches much more recently than Morris. Saying that Aaronsen is in "mid-season" is technically true but the season was suspended almost two months ago.
Berhalter said before last night's match that one reason he was starting Acosta was because he was the best set piece taker available. The US had only scored four set piece goals out of the last 47 goals scored dating back to the start of 2021, and zero set piece goals in the first 10 qualifying games. As it turned out Acosta initiated all three goals through set pieces. So besides his defensive work he also was put into the lineup to provide a function that the wingers (Pulisic and Aaronsen primarily, since they had been the primary set piece takers) hadn't been delivering.
Your friend inferred that now I think Berhalter is a good coach. That's simply a cheap shot because I said in two separate posts that he's not a top level coach and that the US should replace him for the next cycle. But just because someone is a mediocre coach doesn't mean that every single lineup decision is wrong. Your friend is taking a FIFA video game approach: pick the eleven players with the biggest reputations. In the real world you have to consider how they fit together, how they match up against the opponent, what specific skills they bring, how they have been performing recently, etc. in addition to meta considerations (motivating both your regular starters and your reserves). Not to mention that this was the US's third game in a week, all played on substandard fields in very cold weather, so perhaps some players looked tired in training and Berhalter prioritized fresher players who would bring more energy and physicality. We weren't in camp observing training sessions. They do tests every day that measure how a player has recovered and whether he's ready to go hard for ninety minutes. It was a bizarre lineup on the surface but it wasn't totally illogical either. At least there appeared to be some thought process behind it instead of just "these players are most famous so they must play."
Anyway, I don't want to be too hard on your friend. I assume he's in the 13-15 age range if he feels the need to resort to something as juvenile as calling me "PedanticFarmMLSfan13" instead of just making some factual arguments.
Soccer is indeed akin to basketball in terms of lineup construction. So I'll use a Stanford Men's Basketball analogy. There's no question that Delaire is more "talented" than Keefe. But good coaching isn't just putting your five most talented players on the floor, or the five players with the highest recruiting rankings. If Ingram and Jones are on the floor a complementary player such as Keefe can be much more valuable than a redundant scorer or a player who is trying to do too much. Stanford has frequently played better with Keefe on the floor instead of Delaire. And even in positionless basketball some specific functions need to be covered by someone, e.g. protecting the rim, guarding the wings, bringing the ball up against pressure. You can't just start five outside shooters because they are your best players.
This was the downfall of the England national team's "Golden Generation" in the aughts. They had an incredibly talented collection of players that repeatedly underachieved. One of the problems was that arguably their two best players (Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard) played the exact same position with a similar style of play. So they would either both play and more or less get in each other's way or one of them (usually Gerrard wide left) would play out of position. In retrospect everyone involved has said that they would have been better off playing one at a time with a complementary player to do the "dirty work".
I'm a brobdingnagian Aaronsen fan. But your friend explicitly said "Acosta instead of Aaronsen", meaning that either he didn't know that they play totally different positions or that (as he claims now) he was suggesting playing without a dedicated defensive midfielder, i.e. play your best ten field players regardless of how they fit together. With a four man back line (two central defenders) it would be highly unusual to play without a defensive midfielder, or to play someone out of position who will provide more attacking without much attention to protecting the back line (e.g. your friend's suggestion of Dest, who doesn't play much defense at all even when he's at outside back).
Regarding Aaronsen vs Morris, note that 1) Aaronsen played poorly against both El Salvador and Canada, so this could have been a message to both him and the team as a whole that starting spots are not automatic, 2) The Austria Bundesliga has been on break since December 12, so he hasn't been playing in "real" matches much more recently than Morris. Saying that Aaronsen is in "mid-season" is technically true but the season was suspended almost two months ago.
Berhalter said before last night's match that one reason he was starting Acosta was because he was the best set piece taker available. The US had only scored four set piece goals out of the last 47 goals scored dating back to the start of 2021, and zero set piece goals in the first 10 qualifying games. As it turned out Acosta initiated all three goals through set pieces. So besides his defensive work he also was put into the lineup to provide a function that the wingers (Pulisic and Aaronsen primarily, since they had been the primary set piece takers) hadn't been delivering.
Your friend inferred that now I think Berhalter is a good coach. That's simply a cheap shot because I said in two separate posts that he's not a top level coach and that the US should replace him for the next cycle. But just because someone is a mediocre coach doesn't mean that every single lineup decision is wrong. Your friend is taking a FIFA video game approach: pick the eleven players with the biggest reputations. In the real world you have to consider how they fit together, how they match up against the opponent, what specific skills they bring, how they have been performing recently, etc. in addition to meta considerations (motivating both your regular starters and your reserves). Not to mention that this was the US's third game in a week, all played on substandard fields in very cold weather, so perhaps some players looked tired in training and Berhalter prioritized fresher players who would bring more energy and physicality. We weren't in camp observing training sessions. They do tests every day that measure how a player has recovered and whether he's ready to go hard for ninety minutes. It was a bizarre lineup on the surface but it wasn't totally illogical either. At least there appeared to be some thought process behind it instead of just "these players are most famous so they must play."
Anyway, I don't want to be too hard on your friend. I assume he's in the 13-15 age range if he feels the need to resort to something as juvenile as calling me "PedanticFarmMLSfan13" instead of just making some factual arguments.
Well, I'll reply in any case, even though your friend's approach of taking a personally insulting tone was unnecessary. It sounds like he has looked up where players play and some rudimentary statistics without actually watching these games themselves.
Soccer is indeed akin to basketball in terms of lineup construction. So I'll use a Stanford Men's Basketball analogy. There's no question that Delaire is more "talented" than Keefe. But good coaching isn't just putting your five most talented players on the floor, or the five players with the highest recruiting rankings. If Ingram and Jones are on the floor a complementary player such as Keefe can be much more valuable than a redundant scorer or a player who is trying to do too much. Stanford has frequently played better with Keefe on the floor instead of Delaire. And even in positionless basketball some specific functions need to be covered by someone, e.g. protecting the rim, guarding the wings, bringing the ball up against pressure. You can't just start five outside shooters because they are your best players.
This was the downfall of the England national team's "Golden Generation" in the aughts. They had an incredibly talented collection of players that repeatedly underachieved. One of the problems was that arguably their two best players (Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard) played the exact same position with a similar style of play. So they would either both play and more or less get in each other's way or one of them (usually Gerrard wide left) would play out of position. In retrospect everyone involved has said that they would have been better off playing one at a time with a complementary player to do the "dirty work".
I'm a brobdingnagian Aaronsen fan. But your friend explicitly said "Acosta instead of Aaronsen", meaning that either he didn't know that they play totally different positions or that (as he claims now) he was suggesting playing without a dedicated defensive midfielder, i.e. play your best ten field players regardless of how they fit together. With a four man back line (two central defenders) it would be highly unusual to play without a defensive midfielder, or to play someone out of position who will provide more attacking without much attention to protecting the back line (e.g. your friend's suggestion of Dest, who doesn't play much defense at all even when he's at outside back).
Regarding Aaronsen vs Morris, note that 1) Aaronsen played poorly against both El Salvador and Canada, so this could have been a message to both him and the team as a whole that starting spots are not automatic, 2) The Austria Bundesliga has been on break since December 12, so he hasn't been playing in "real" matches much more recently than Morris. Saying that Aaronsen is in "mid-season" is technically true but the season was suspended almost two months ago.
Berhalter said before last night's match that one reason he was starting Acosta was because he was the best set piece taker available. The US had only scored four set piece goals out of the last 47 goals scored dating back to the start of 2021, and zero set piece goals in the first 10 qualifying games. As it turned out Acosta initiated all three goals through set pieces. So besides his defensive work he also was put into the lineup to provide a function that the wingers (Pulisic and Aaronsen primarily, since they had been the primary set piece takers) hadn't been delivering.
Your friend inferred that now I think Berhalter is a good coach. That's simply a cheap shot because I said in two separate posts that he's not a top level coach and that the US should replace him for the next cycle. But just because someone is a mediocre coach doesn't mean that every single lineup decision is wrong. Your friend is taking a FIFA video game approach: pick the eleven players with the biggest reputations. In the real world you have to consider how they fit together, how they match up against the opponent, what specific skills they bring, how they have been performing recently, etc. in addition to meta considerations (motivating both your regular starters and your reserves). Not to mention that this was the US's third game in a week, all played on substandard fields in very cold weather, so perhaps some players looked tired in training and Berhalter prioritized fresher players who would bring more energy and physicality. We weren't in camp observing training sessions. They do tests every day that measure how a player has recovered and whether he's ready to go hard for ninety minutes. It was a bizarre lineup on the surface but it wasn't totally illogical either. At least there appeared to be some thought process behind it instead of just "these players are most famous so they must play."
Anyway, I don't want to be too hard on your friend. I assume he's in the 13-15 age range if he feels the need to resort to something as juvenile as calling me "PedanticFarmMLSfan13" instead of just making some factual arguments.
Soccer is indeed akin to basketball in terms of lineup construction. So I'll use a Stanford Men's Basketball analogy. There's no question that Delaire is more "talented" than Keefe. But good coaching isn't just putting your five most talented players on the floor, or the five players with the highest recruiting rankings. If Ingram and Jones are on the floor a complementary player such as Keefe can be much more valuable than a redundant scorer or a player who is trying to do too much. Stanford has frequently played better with Keefe on the floor instead of Delaire. And even in positionless basketball some specific functions need to be covered by someone, e.g. protecting the rim, guarding the wings, bringing the ball up against pressure. You can't just start five outside shooters because they are your best players.
This was the downfall of the England national team's "Golden Generation" in the aughts. They had an incredibly talented collection of players that repeatedly underachieved. One of the problems was that arguably their two best players (Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard) played the exact same position with a similar style of play. So they would either both play and more or less get in each other's way or one of them (usually Gerrard wide left) would play out of position. In retrospect everyone involved has said that they would have been better off playing one at a time with a complementary player to do the "dirty work".
I'm a brobdingnagian Aaronsen fan. But your friend explicitly said "Acosta instead of Aaronsen", meaning that either he didn't know that they play totally different positions or that (as he claims now) he was suggesting playing without a dedicated defensive midfielder, i.e. play your best ten field players regardless of how they fit together. With a four man back line (two central defenders) it would be highly unusual to play without a defensive midfielder, or to play someone out of position who will provide more attacking without much attention to protecting the back line (e.g. your friend's suggestion of Dest, who doesn't play much defense at all even when he's at outside back).
Regarding Aaronsen vs Morris, note that 1) Aaronsen played poorly against both El Salvador and Canada, so this could have been a message to both him and the team as a whole that starting spots are not automatic, 2) The Austria Bundesliga has been on break since December 12, so he hasn't been playing in "real" matches much more recently than Morris. Saying that Aaronsen is in "mid-season" is technically true but the season was suspended almost two months ago.
Berhalter said before last night's match that one reason he was starting Acosta was because he was the best set piece taker available. The US had only scored four set piece goals out of the last 47 goals scored dating back to the start of 2021, and zero set piece goals in the first 10 qualifying games. As it turned out Acosta initiated all three goals through set pieces. So besides his defensive work he also was put into the lineup to provide a function that the wingers (Pulisic and Aaronsen primarily, since they had been the primary set piece takers) hadn't been delivering.
Your friend inferred that now I think Berhalter is a good coach. That's simply a cheap shot because I said in two separate posts that he's not a top level coach and that the US should replace him for the next cycle. But just because someone is a mediocre coach doesn't mean that every single lineup decision is wrong. Your friend is taking a FIFA video game approach: pick the eleven players with the biggest reputations. In the real world you have to consider how they fit together, how they match up against the opponent, what specific skills they bring, how they have been performing recently, etc. in addition to meta considerations (motivating both your regular starters and your reserves). Not to mention that this was the US's third game in a week, all played on substandard fields in very cold weather, so perhaps some players looked tired in training and Berhalter prioritized fresher players who would bring more energy and physicality. We weren't in camp observing training sessions. They do tests every day that measure how a player has recovered and whether he's ready to go hard for ninety minutes. It was a bizarre lineup on the surface but it wasn't totally illogical either. At least there appeared to be some thought process behind it instead of just "these players are most famous so they must play."
Anyway, I don't want to be too hard on your friend. I assume he's in the 13-15 age range if he feels the need to resort to something as juvenile as calling me "PedanticFarmMLSfan13" instead of just making some factual arguments.
02-03-2022, 05:20 PM
I tend to agree with those who think Berhalter is overmatched in this role, and I certainly agree that his choices of forwards, particularly the #9 role, are confusing. (Zardes in particular continues to put in poor, ineffective performances, and somehow in the Year of our Lord Two Thousand and Two, I'm still seeing Zardes start up top. Nary a single shot against Canada. No chances created. And yet he played 90 minutes, go figure.)
I'm cool with benching Pulisic. Just because he's the present and future, it doesn't mean he's in the best form right now, and it's no secret he's been struggling at Chelsea (whether you think that's because of Tuchel or Pulisic being hesitant after returning from injury is irrelevant--the point is that he's not playing his best and most effective club football right now). Benching him and bringing him on late for a spark is a great idea. Now, you could argue that bringing him on for subzero temps with a 2-0 lead over woeful Honduras wasn't the right call, and that safer options would've been more prudent. But the result was pretty ideal--he got a goal very quickly and maybe it's the kind of kick in the pants he needs to get things back on track.
And yeah, whether the US or Mexico has the best 23 players of their nationality is different than the issue before is--which team's likely roster is better? Right now, that's the US, and that's not terribly controversial.
Frustrating that Canada is starting to emerge as a soccer power, but the fact remains the USMNT has a more talented roster than the Canadians. Tactically, though, Canada was better on the day, and we struggled to create chances. And yes, that's on Berhalter.
I'm cool with benching Pulisic. Just because he's the present and future, it doesn't mean he's in the best form right now, and it's no secret he's been struggling at Chelsea (whether you think that's because of Tuchel or Pulisic being hesitant after returning from injury is irrelevant--the point is that he's not playing his best and most effective club football right now). Benching him and bringing him on late for a spark is a great idea. Now, you could argue that bringing him on for subzero temps with a 2-0 lead over woeful Honduras wasn't the right call, and that safer options would've been more prudent. But the result was pretty ideal--he got a goal very quickly and maybe it's the kind of kick in the pants he needs to get things back on track.
And yeah, whether the US or Mexico has the best 23 players of their nationality is different than the issue before is--which team's likely roster is better? Right now, that's the US, and that's not terribly controversial.
Frustrating that Canada is starting to emerge as a soccer power, but the fact remains the USMNT has a more talented roster than the Canadians. Tactically, though, Canada was better on the day, and we struggled to create chances. And yes, that's on Berhalter.
I tend to agree with those who think Berhalter is overmatched in this role, and I certainly agree that his choices of forwards, particularly the #9 role, are confusing. (Zardes in particular continues to put in poor, ineffective performances, and somehow in the Year of our Lord Two Thousand and Two, I'm still seeing Zardes start up top. Nary a single shot against Canada. No chances created. And yet he played 90 minutes, go figure.)
I'm cool with benching Pulisic. Just because he's the present and future, it doesn't mean he's in the best form right now, and it's no secret he's been struggling at Chelsea (whether you think that's because of Tuchel or Pulisic being hesitant after returning from injury is irrelevant--the point is that he's not playing his best and most effective club football right now). Benching him and bringing him on late for a spark is a great idea. Now, you could argue that bringing him on for subzero temps with a 2-0 lead over woeful Honduras wasn't the right call, and that safer options would've been more prudent. But the result was pretty ideal--he got a goal very quickly and maybe it's the kind of kick in the pants he needs to get things back on track.
And yeah, whether the US or Mexico has the best 23 players of their nationality is different than the issue before is--which team's likely roster is better? Right now, that's the US, and that's not terribly controversial.
Frustrating that Canada is starting to emerge as a soccer power, but the fact remains the USMNT has a more talented roster than the Canadians. Tactically, though, Canada was better on the day, and we struggled to create chances. And yes, that's on Berhalter.
I'm cool with benching Pulisic. Just because he's the present and future, it doesn't mean he's in the best form right now, and it's no secret he's been struggling at Chelsea (whether you think that's because of Tuchel or Pulisic being hesitant after returning from injury is irrelevant--the point is that he's not playing his best and most effective club football right now). Benching him and bringing him on late for a spark is a great idea. Now, you could argue that bringing him on for subzero temps with a 2-0 lead over woeful Honduras wasn't the right call, and that safer options would've been more prudent. But the result was pretty ideal--he got a goal very quickly and maybe it's the kind of kick in the pants he needs to get things back on track.
And yeah, whether the US or Mexico has the best 23 players of their nationality is different than the issue before is--which team's likely roster is better? Right now, that's the US, and that's not terribly controversial.
Frustrating that Canada is starting to emerge as a soccer power, but the fact remains the USMNT has a more talented roster than the Canadians. Tactically, though, Canada was better on the day, and we struggled to create chances. And yes, that's on Berhalter.
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