06-27-2014, 04:36 PM
“Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to Hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip." W. Churchill
Amazing work by Oregon PR team :)
“Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to Hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip." W. Churchill
“Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to Hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip." W. Churchill
06-27-2014, 08:30 PM
Well, it's not all bad. They do at least note that Stanford won for the 20th straight time.
Two related bits I found questionable.
Secondly, the number seems rather off. By my count Stanford offers 30 NCAA sports*, Oregon says they have 18, so the difference seems to be 12 by the math I learned.
*Someone perhaps can chime in to help my counting. I got to 30 by starting with the 36 sports listed on the official site web page. From there I added 2 because Track and Field offers both indoors and outdoors. Then I subtracted the non-NCAA sports, Womens: Synchronized Swimming, Squash, Sand Volleyball, Sailing, Ltw Rowing; Mens: Sailing, Rowing; and 1 more subtraction because both mens and womens fencing are listed but NCAA offers only a combined championship.
So, 36 listed + 2 TF - 7 non-NCAA - 1 combined = 30 NCAA championship sports.
Is that right?
Two related bits I found questionable.
Quote:Placing in the top 15 nationally for the second straight year, while at the same time only sponsoring 18 NCAA championship athletic programs, is an exceptional achievement that exemplifies our commitment to success across the board at the University of Oregon, said Director of Athletics Rob Mullens.One might think that an actual commitment to success across the board would entail sponsoring more than 18 sports.
Quote:Stanford, which sponsors 20 more sports than Oregon, accumulated top honors for the 20th straight year with a total of 1,481 points.First off, they say that as if it is a bad thing that Stanford sponsors more sports.
Secondly, the number seems rather off. By my count Stanford offers 30 NCAA sports*, Oregon says they have 18, so the difference seems to be 12 by the math I learned.
*Someone perhaps can chime in to help my counting. I got to 30 by starting with the 36 sports listed on the official site web page. From there I added 2 because Track and Field offers both indoors and outdoors. Then I subtracted the non-NCAA sports, Womens: Synchronized Swimming, Squash, Sand Volleyball, Sailing, Ltw Rowing; Mens: Sailing, Rowing; and 1 more subtraction because both mens and womens fencing are listed but NCAA offers only a combined championship.
So, 36 listed + 2 TF - 7 non-NCAA - 1 combined = 30 NCAA championship sports.
Is that right?
Well, it's not all bad. They do at least note that Stanford won for the 20th straight time.
Two related bits I found questionable.
Secondly, the number seems rather off. By my count Stanford offers 30 NCAA sports*, Oregon says they have 18, so the difference seems to be 12 by the math I learned.
*Someone perhaps can chime in to help my counting. I got to 30 by starting with the 36 sports listed on the official site web page. From there I added 2 because Track and Field offers both indoors and outdoors. Then I subtracted the non-NCAA sports, Womens: Synchronized Swimming, Squash, Sand Volleyball, Sailing, Ltw Rowing; Mens: Sailing, Rowing; and 1 more subtraction because both mens and womens fencing are listed but NCAA offers only a combined championship.
So, 36 listed + 2 TF - 7 non-NCAA - 1 combined = 30 NCAA championship sports.
Is that right?
Two related bits I found questionable.
Quote:Placing in the top 15 nationally for the second straight year, while at the same time only sponsoring 18 NCAA championship athletic programs, is an exceptional achievement that exemplifies our commitment to success across the board at the University of Oregon, said Director of Athletics Rob Mullens.One might think that an actual commitment to success across the board would entail sponsoring more than 18 sports.
Quote:Stanford, which sponsors 20 more sports than Oregon, accumulated top honors for the 20th straight year with a total of 1,481 points.First off, they say that as if it is a bad thing that Stanford sponsors more sports.
Secondly, the number seems rather off. By my count Stanford offers 30 NCAA sports*, Oregon says they have 18, so the difference seems to be 12 by the math I learned.
*Someone perhaps can chime in to help my counting. I got to 30 by starting with the 36 sports listed on the official site web page. From there I added 2 because Track and Field offers both indoors and outdoors. Then I subtracted the non-NCAA sports, Womens: Synchronized Swimming, Squash, Sand Volleyball, Sailing, Ltw Rowing; Mens: Sailing, Rowing; and 1 more subtraction because both mens and womens fencing are listed but NCAA offers only a combined championship.
So, 36 listed + 2 TF - 7 non-NCAA - 1 combined = 30 NCAA championship sports.
Is that right?
06-29-2014, 09:29 AM
(06-27-2014, 08:30 PM)CTcard link Wrote:Someone perhaps can chime in to help my counting. I got to 30 by starting with the 36 sports listed on the official site web page. From there I added 2 because Track and Field offers both indoors and outdoors. Then I subtracted the non-NCAA sports, Womens: Synchronized Swimming, Squash, Sand Volleyball, Sailing, Ltw Rowing; Mens: Sailing, Rowing; and 1 more subtraction because both mens and womens fencing are listed but NCAA offers only a combined championship.
So, 36 listed + 2 TF - 7 non-NCAA - 1 combined = 30 NCAA championship sports.
Is that right?
Yes, I also count 30 sports (counting indoor and outdoor track and field separately).
(06-27-2014, 08:30 PM)CTcard link Wrote:Someone perhaps can chime in to help my counting. I got to 30 by starting with the 36 sports listed on the official site web page. From there I added 2 because Track and Field offers both indoors and outdoors. Then I subtracted the non-NCAA sports, Womens: Synchronized Swimming, Squash, Sand Volleyball, Sailing, Ltw Rowing; Mens: Sailing, Rowing; and 1 more subtraction because both mens and womens fencing are listed but NCAA offers only a combined championship.
So, 36 listed + 2 TF - 7 non-NCAA - 1 combined = 30 NCAA championship sports.
Is that right?
Yes, I also count 30 sports (counting indoor and outdoor track and field separately).
06-29-2014, 09:47 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2014, 11:27 AM by BigEasyCard.)
I have 30 also in my Director's Cup tracking spreadsheet. This past year all teams except Women's Softball and Field Hockey earned Cup points in NCAA championship competition.Â
Geaux Cardinal!
Geaux Cardinal!
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2014, 11:27 AM by BigEasyCard.)
I have 30 also in my Director's Cup tracking spreadsheet. This past year all teams except Women's Softball and Field Hockey earned Cup points in NCAA championship competition.Â
Geaux Cardinal!
Geaux Cardinal!
06-29-2014, 06:46 PM
A few observations based on the linked article and Stanford's Cup performance:
1. Ducks had four sports which did not earn Cup points; Cardinal had two.
2. Ducks average 67 points per sport. Cardinal averages 74 (for the Top 20).
3. Ducks are niche specialists with their excellent CC, IT&F and OT&F teams earning 522 points or 55% of their total.
4. "Stanford, which sponsors 20 (sic) more sports than Oregon, accumulated top honors for the 20th straight year with a total of 1,481(sic) points."
Geaux Cardinal!
1. Ducks had four sports which did not earn Cup points; Cardinal had two.
2. Ducks average 67 points per sport. Cardinal averages 74 (for the Top 20).
3. Ducks are niche specialists with their excellent CC, IT&F and OT&F teams earning 522 points or 55% of their total.
4. "Stanford, which sponsors 20 (sic) more sports than Oregon, accumulated top honors for the 20th straight year with a total of 1,481(sic) points."
Geaux Cardinal!
A few observations based on the linked article and Stanford's Cup performance:
1. Ducks had four sports which did not earn Cup points; Cardinal had two.
2. Ducks average 67 points per sport. Cardinal averages 74 (for the Top 20).
3. Ducks are niche specialists with their excellent CC, IT&F and OT&F teams earning 522 points or 55% of their total.
4. "Stanford, which sponsors 20 (sic) more sports than Oregon, accumulated top honors for the 20th straight year with a total of 1,481(sic) points."
Geaux Cardinal!
1. Ducks had four sports which did not earn Cup points; Cardinal had two.
2. Ducks average 67 points per sport. Cardinal averages 74 (for the Top 20).
3. Ducks are niche specialists with their excellent CC, IT&F and OT&F teams earning 522 points or 55% of their total.
4. "Stanford, which sponsors 20 (sic) more sports than Oregon, accumulated top honors for the 20th straight year with a total of 1,481(sic) points."
Geaux Cardinal!
06-30-2014, 10:20 AM
One of the joys of a day off from work is being able to do the following. Below is an apple-to-apple comparison using only the 18 NCAA sports that Oregon sponsors. Assuming an 18-sport Stanford existed, it would have finished 10th with 1049.25 points. Still a dead Duck!
| Oregon | Stanford | |||
| Rank | Points | Rank | Points | |
| W. Cross Country | 14 | 61.5 | 11 | 66 |
| M. Cross Country | 5 | 75 | 19 | 55 |
| Football | 9 | 69 | 10 | 66.75 |
| W. Volleyball | 17 | 50 | 5 | 73 |
| M. Basketball | 17 | 50 | 9 | 64 |
| W. Basketball | 0 | 0 | 3 | 83 |
| W. Indoor Track & Field | 1 | 100 | 7 | 71.25 |
| M. Indoor Track & Field | 1 | 100 | 12 | 63.75 |
| Baseball | 17 | 50 | 9 | 64 |
| W. Golf | 40 | 33 | 18 | 55.5 [score not utilized in final tally] |
| M. Golf | 14 | 61.5 | 3 | 82.5 |
| Softball | 3 | 83 | 0 | 0 |
| W. Tennis | 0 | 0 | 3 | 83 |
| M. Tennis | 33 | 25 | 33 | 25 [score not utilized in final tally] |
| W. Track & Field | 3 | 85 | 11 | 66 |
| M. Track & Field | 1 | 100 | 32 | 41.5 [score not utilized in final tally] |
| W. Lacrosse | 0 | 0 | 17 | 25 [score not utilized in final tally] |
| W. Soccer | 0 | 0 | 9 | 64 |
| TOTAL | 15 | 943 | 10 | 1049.25 |
If I had a dollar every time I was distracted, I wish I had some ice cream.
One of the joys of a day off from work is being able to do the following. Below is an apple-to-apple comparison using only the 18 NCAA sports that Oregon sponsors. Assuming an 18-sport Stanford existed, it would have finished 10th with 1049.25 points. Still a dead Duck!
| Oregon | Stanford | |||
| Rank | Points | Rank | Points | |
| W. Cross Country | 14 | 61.5 | 11 | 66 |
| M. Cross Country | 5 | 75 | 19 | 55 |
| Football | 9 | 69 | 10 | 66.75 |
| W. Volleyball | 17 | 50 | 5 | 73 |
| M. Basketball | 17 | 50 | 9 | 64 |
| W. Basketball | 0 | 0 | 3 | 83 |
| W. Indoor Track & Field | 1 | 100 | 7 | 71.25 |
| M. Indoor Track & Field | 1 | 100 | 12 | 63.75 |
| Baseball | 17 | 50 | 9 | 64 |
| W. Golf | 40 | 33 | 18 | 55.5 [score not utilized in final tally] |
| M. Golf | 14 | 61.5 | 3 | 82.5 |
| Softball | 3 | 83 | 0 | 0 |
| W. Tennis | 0 | 0 | 3 | 83 |
| M. Tennis | 33 | 25 | 33 | 25 [score not utilized in final tally] |
| W. Track & Field | 3 | 85 | 11 | 66 |
| M. Track & Field | 1 | 100 | 32 | 41.5 [score not utilized in final tally] |
| W. Lacrosse | 0 | 0 | 17 | 25 [score not utilized in final tally] |
| W. Soccer | 0 | 0 | 9 | 64 |
| TOTAL | 15 | 943 | 10 | 1049.25 |
If I had a dollar every time I was distracted, I wish I had some ice cream.
06-30-2014, 10:45 AM
Those sports were dropped from Stanford's final scorecard because we had other sports that scored more points.Â
I believe you can score a maximum of 10 men's and 10 women's sports. From the Directors Cup website, "In Division I, there will be 20 sports counted in the standings - the top 10 men's and the top 10 women's".Â
Many other universities complain that because Stanford has more than 10 men's and women's sports we have the luxury of dropping out our low scoring sports.  Maybe, but you still have to score the points.
http://www.nacda.com/directorscup/nacda-...oring.html
Here's the Directors Cup newly adopted "Philosophy". Anyone know what changed? (With all those subordinate clauses they certainly weren't trying to make it read more clearly!)
I believe you can score a maximum of 10 men's and 10 women's sports. From the Directors Cup website, "In Division I, there will be 20 sports counted in the standings - the top 10 men's and the top 10 women's".Â
Many other universities complain that because Stanford has more than 10 men's and women's sports we have the luxury of dropping out our low scoring sports.  Maybe, but you still have to score the points.
http://www.nacda.com/directorscup/nacda-...oring.html
Here's the Directors Cup newly adopted "Philosophy". Anyone know what changed? (With all those subordinate clauses they certainly weren't trying to make it read more clearly!)
Quote:The committee adjusted the philosophy of the program to read as follows - A program that honors institutions maintaining a broad-based program, achieving success in many sports, both men's and women's, in which all sports that the NCAA, NAIA or NJCAA offers a championship, along with Division IA football, and all student-athletes that compete in those sports, are treated equally.
In 1938 Neville Chamberlain declared "Peace in our time", Superman first appeared in Action Comics, Seabiscuit beat War Admiral ....... and C.a.l last won the Rose Bowl.
Those sports were dropped from Stanford's final scorecard because we had other sports that scored more points.Â
I believe you can score a maximum of 10 men's and 10 women's sports. From the Directors Cup website, "In Division I, there will be 20 sports counted in the standings - the top 10 men's and the top 10 women's".Â
Many other universities complain that because Stanford has more than 10 men's and women's sports we have the luxury of dropping out our low scoring sports.  Maybe, but you still have to score the points.
http://www.nacda.com/directorscup/nacda-...oring.html
Here's the Directors Cup newly adopted "Philosophy". Anyone know what changed? (With all those subordinate clauses they certainly weren't trying to make it read more clearly!)
I believe you can score a maximum of 10 men's and 10 women's sports. From the Directors Cup website, "In Division I, there will be 20 sports counted in the standings - the top 10 men's and the top 10 women's".Â
Many other universities complain that because Stanford has more than 10 men's and women's sports we have the luxury of dropping out our low scoring sports.  Maybe, but you still have to score the points.
http://www.nacda.com/directorscup/nacda-...oring.html
Here's the Directors Cup newly adopted "Philosophy". Anyone know what changed? (With all those subordinate clauses they certainly weren't trying to make it read more clearly!)
Quote:The committee adjusted the philosophy of the program to read as follows - A program that honors institutions maintaining a broad-based program, achieving success in many sports, both men's and women's, in which all sports that the NCAA, NAIA or NJCAA offers a championship, along with Division IA football, and all student-athletes that compete in those sports, are treated equally.
In 1938 Neville Chamberlain declared "Peace in our time", Superman first appeared in Action Comics, Seabiscuit beat War Admiral ....... and C.a.l last won the Rose Bowl.
06-30-2014, 10:59 AM
(06-30-2014, 10:51 AM)ferrari link Wrote:I am still confused. We drop WGolf and it's 55.5 pts but keep softball and it's 0 pts?
We didn't keep softball either. The notation is to show that we ranked in that sport and that sport would have been worth the points allotted in the chart. It was ultimately dropped because we scored better in another sport.
If I had a dollar every time I was distracted, I wish I had some ice cream.
(06-30-2014, 10:51 AM)ferrari link Wrote:I am still confused. We drop WGolf and it's 55.5 pts but keep softball and it's 0 pts?
We didn't keep softball either. The notation is to show that we ranked in that sport and that sport would have been worth the points allotted in the chart. It was ultimately dropped because we scored better in another sport.
If I had a dollar every time I was distracted, I wish I had some ice cream.
PL only included sports where Oregon also competes - it's not meant to be an all inclusive list of Stanford's sports. Does that help?
Of course PL's list does do a great job of showing we beat Oregon in Director's cup scoring even if we only score sports they used in their own Directors cup total. So .... no need to for the slightly snarky comment on our number of sponsored sports you Ducks!
Of course PL's list does do a great job of showing we beat Oregon in Director's cup scoring even if we only score sports they used in their own Directors cup total. So .... no need to for the slightly snarky comment on our number of sponsored sports you Ducks!
In 1938 Neville Chamberlain declared "Peace in our time", Superman first appeared in Action Comics, Seabiscuit beat War Admiral ....... and C.a.l last won the Rose Bowl.
PL only included sports where Oregon also competes - it's not meant to be an all inclusive list of Stanford's sports. Does that help?
Of course PL's list does do a great job of showing we beat Oregon in Director's cup scoring even if we only score sports they used in their own Directors cup total. So .... no need to for the slightly snarky comment on our number of sponsored sports you Ducks!
Of course PL's list does do a great job of showing we beat Oregon in Director's cup scoring even if we only score sports they used in their own Directors cup total. So .... no need to for the slightly snarky comment on our number of sponsored sports you Ducks!
In 1938 Neville Chamberlain declared "Peace in our time", Superman first appeared in Action Comics, Seabiscuit beat War Admiral ....... and C.a.l last won the Rose Bowl.
06-30-2014, 01:33 PM
(06-30-2014, 10:20 AM)PrinceLightfoot link Wrote:One of the joys of a day off from work is being able to do the following. Below is an apple-to-apple comparison using only the 18 NCAA sports that Oregon sponsors. Assuming an 18-sport Stanford existed, it would have finished 10th with 1049.25 points. Still a dead Duck!
Oregon Stanford Rank Points Rank Points W. Cross Country 14 61.5 11 66 M. Cross Country 5 75 19 55 Football 9 69 10 66.75 W. Volleyball 17 50 5 73 M. Basketball 17 50 9 64 W. Basketball 0 0 3 83 W. Indoor Track & Field 1 100 7 71.25 M. Indoor Track & Field 1 100 12 63.75 Baseball 17 50 9 64 W. Golf 40 33 18 55.5 [score not utilized in final tally] M. Golf 14 61.5 3 82.5 Softball 3 83 0 0 W. Tennis 0 0 3 83 M. Tennis 33 25 33 25 [score not utilized in final tally] W. Track & Field 3 85 11 66 M. Track & Field 1 100 32 41.5 [score not utilized in final tally] W. Lacrosse 0 0 17 25 [score not utilized in final tally] W. Soccer 0 0 9 64 TOTAL 15 943 10 1049.25
Excellent work, PL! As soon as I read the original story I wanted to do this but didn't make the time. Aren't you tempted to send it to the Duck writer?
Also, I've never understood why it's "fair" to count T&F as two championships for both men and women - indoor and outdoor. Maybe the schools with strong tennis amd swimming programs should lobby for indoor and outdoor championships as well. By Oregon focusing on T&F and Cross Country, they get a lot of points mileage (521.5 pts. out of 600 possible pts. in 6 championships) in the Director's Cup standings from a relatively few number of athletes/scholarships.
(06-30-2014, 10:20 AM)PrinceLightfoot link Wrote:One of the joys of a day off from work is being able to do the following. Below is an apple-to-apple comparison using only the 18 NCAA sports that Oregon sponsors. Assuming an 18-sport Stanford existed, it would have finished 10th with 1049.25 points. Still a dead Duck!
Oregon Stanford Rank Points Rank Points W. Cross Country 14 61.5 11 66 M. Cross Country 5 75 19 55 Football 9 69 10 66.75 W. Volleyball 17 50 5 73 M. Basketball 17 50 9 64 W. Basketball 0 0 3 83 W. Indoor Track & Field 1 100 7 71.25 M. Indoor Track & Field 1 100 12 63.75 Baseball 17 50 9 64 W. Golf 40 33 18 55.5 [score not utilized in final tally] M. Golf 14 61.5 3 82.5 Softball 3 83 0 0 W. Tennis 0 0 3 83 M. Tennis 33 25 33 25 [score not utilized in final tally] W. Track & Field 3 85 11 66 M. Track & Field 1 100 32 41.5 [score not utilized in final tally] W. Lacrosse 0 0 17 25 [score not utilized in final tally] W. Soccer 0 0 9 64 TOTAL 15 943 10 1049.25
Excellent work, PL! As soon as I read the original story I wanted to do this but didn't make the time. Aren't you tempted to send it to the Duck writer?
Also, I've never understood why it's "fair" to count T&F as two championships for both men and women - indoor and outdoor. Maybe the schools with strong tennis amd swimming programs should lobby for indoor and outdoor championships as well. By Oregon focusing on T&F and Cross Country, they get a lot of points mileage (521.5 pts. out of 600 possible pts. in 6 championships) in the Director's Cup standings from a relatively few number of athletes/scholarships.
06-30-2014, 03:51 PM
(06-30-2014, 01:33 PM)zedcom link Wrote:Excellent work, PL! As soon as I read the original story I wanted to do this but didn't make the time. Aren't you tempted to send it to the Duck writer?
Very tempted! If so moved, go for it. I had a small twitter discussion when the Assistant AD for Oregon tweeted:
Wins vs. power conferences last 5 yrs:
1. Oregon - 48
2. Alabama - 45
3. STANFORD - 44
4. LSU, Oklahoma - 40
These totals just didn't seem correct, so while at work I quickly checked our wins subtracting out San Jose State, Army, and Sacramento State. I came up with 48 wins. The devil in the details of that tweet though was "power conferences", so the four wins we have over ND during this time do not count since they are technically an independent school.
The Oregon AD isn't being untruthful, but they are not telling the whole story either. They should go into business selling used cars.
If I had a dollar every time I was distracted, I wish I had some ice cream.
(06-30-2014, 01:33 PM)zedcom link Wrote:Excellent work, PL! As soon as I read the original story I wanted to do this but didn't make the time. Aren't you tempted to send it to the Duck writer?
Very tempted! If so moved, go for it. I had a small twitter discussion when the Assistant AD for Oregon tweeted:
Wins vs. power conferences last 5 yrs:
1. Oregon - 48
2. Alabama - 45
3. STANFORD - 44
4. LSU, Oklahoma - 40
These totals just didn't seem correct, so while at work I quickly checked our wins subtracting out San Jose State, Army, and Sacramento State. I came up with 48 wins. The devil in the details of that tweet though was "power conferences", so the four wins we have over ND during this time do not count since they are technically an independent school.
The Oregon AD isn't being untruthful, but they are not telling the whole story either. They should go into business selling used cars.
If I had a dollar every time I was distracted, I wish I had some ice cream.
07-01-2014, 07:27 AM
(06-30-2014, 03:51 PM)PrinceLightfoot link Wrote:Very tempted! If so moved, go for it. I had a small twitter discussion when the Assistant AD for Oregon tweeted:
These totals just didn't seem correct, so while at work I quickly checked our wins subtracting out San Jose State, Army, and Sacramento State. I came up with 48 wins. The devil in the details of that tweet though was "power conferences", so the four wins we have over ND during this time do not count since they are technically an independent school.
The Oregon AD isn't being untruthful, but they are not telling the whole story either. They should go into business selling used cars.
Which is why the standard phrase has been "BCS schools" or "BCS automatic-qualifier leagues" which includes Notre Dame given their part in the BCS agreement - even if it makes them a league of one.
(06-30-2014, 03:51 PM)PrinceLightfoot link Wrote:Very tempted! If so moved, go for it. I had a small twitter discussion when the Assistant AD for Oregon tweeted:
These totals just didn't seem correct, so while at work I quickly checked our wins subtracting out San Jose State, Army, and Sacramento State. I came up with 48 wins. The devil in the details of that tweet though was "power conferences", so the four wins we have over ND during this time do not count since they are technically an independent school.
The Oregon AD isn't being untruthful, but they are not telling the whole story either. They should go into business selling used cars.
Which is why the standard phrase has been "BCS schools" or "BCS automatic-qualifier leagues" which includes Notre Dame given their part in the BCS agreement - even if it makes them a league of one.
07-01-2014, 07:52 AM
(06-30-2014, 03:51 PM)PrinceLightfoot link Wrote:[quote author=zedcom link=topic=10155.msg91800#msg91800 date=1404160437]
Excellent work, PL! As soon as I read the original story I wanted to do this but didn't make the time. Aren't you tempted to send it to the Duck writer?
Very tempted! If so moved, go for it.
[/quote]
Here's the Duck forum discussion...LOL:
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=128&f=1423&t=12961901
(06-30-2014, 03:51 PM)PrinceLightfoot link Wrote:[quote author=zedcom link=topic=10155.msg91800#msg91800 date=1404160437]
Excellent work, PL! As soon as I read the original story I wanted to do this but didn't make the time. Aren't you tempted to send it to the Duck writer?
Very tempted! If so moved, go for it.
[/quote]
Here's the Duck forum discussion...LOL:
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=128&f=1423&t=12961901
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