[stupac2]

Your example of "begging the question" was an example of a false premise, but technically not begging the question.  Your question was "why does the ocean make the sky blue?".  It starts with the assumption that the ocean makes the sky blue.  But you are not trying to lead to the conclusion that the ocean makes the sky blue (whose [incorrect] answer was posited as part of the question), but rather you are asking why.

There are some good examples of begging the question here:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies...stion.html

BC

Fair enough. Coming up with something good from scratch is nontrivial.

Though, to be frank, I don't see why any of those examples need to be distinguished from standard circular reasoning, and I always thought that begging the question was different. Maybe it's not important.

[stupac2]

Your example of "begging the question" was an example of a false premise, but technically not begging the question.  Your question was "why does the ocean make the sky blue?".  It starts with the assumption that the ocean makes the sky blue.  But you are not trying to lead to the conclusion that the ocean makes the sky blue (whose [incorrect] answer was posited as part of the question), but rather you are asking why.

There are some good examples of begging the question here:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies...stion.html

BC

Fair enough. Coming up with something good from scratch is nontrivial.

Though, to be frank, I don't see why any of those examples need to be distinguished from standard circular reasoning, and I always thought that begging the question was different. Maybe it's not important.

[GoodGrief]

[quote author=Boston Card link=topic=10603.msg97953#msg97953 date=1410472809]That's not entirely correct.  Begging the question is a form of circular logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

And a square is a rectangle, but you can explain the difference between the two. Which part of my illustration wasn't actually correct?
[/quote]

ooh ooh ooh! along these lines, can one of you folks who are smarter than me please clarify for me the meaning of the word "moot"?

the dictionary says that "moot" means "subject to debate, dispute, or uncertainty, and typically not admitting of a final decision." So something that is moot is worthy of debate, correct?

The reason I ask is that as a youngster, this Saturday Night Live sketch (Jesse Jackson on "The Question Is Moot") introduced me to the word "moot." And in this sketch, "moot" is being used to signify something that is irrelevant and not even worth discussing or debating. So does this sketch misuse the word "moot"?
https://myspace.com/skippythebold/video/...t/10783207

(I'm posting the link since embedding the video is not going very well)

[GoodGrief]

[quote author=Boston Card link=topic=10603.msg97953#msg97953 date=1410472809]That's not entirely correct.  Begging the question is a form of circular logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

And a square is a rectangle, but you can explain the difference between the two. Which part of my illustration wasn't actually correct?
[/quote]

ooh ooh ooh! along these lines, can one of you folks who are smarter than me please clarify for me the meaning of the word "moot"?

the dictionary says that "moot" means "subject to debate, dispute, or uncertainty, and typically not admitting of a final decision." So something that is moot is worthy of debate, correct?

The reason I ask is that as a youngster, this Saturday Night Live sketch (Jesse Jackson on "The Question Is Moot") introduced me to the word "moot." And in this sketch, "moot" is being used to signify something that is irrelevant and not even worth discussing or debating. So does this sketch misuse the word "moot"?
https://myspace.com/skippythebold/video/...t/10783207

(I'm posting the link since embedding the video is not going very well)

[stupac2]

I assume it used the phrase "moot point":

moot point. An issue that is subject to, or open for discussion or debate, to which no satisfactory answer is found; originally, one to be definitively determined by an assembly of the people.

I can't watch the video right now but I think that covers the standard use of "moot point", it's sort of interesting that it ends up being used to mean the opposite of what it seems like it should mean from the dictionary definition.

[stupac2]

I assume it used the phrase "moot point":

moot point. An issue that is subject to, or open for discussion or debate, to which no satisfactory answer is found; originally, one to be definitively determined by an assembly of the people.

I can't watch the video right now but I think that covers the standard use of "moot point", it's sort of interesting that it ends up being used to mean the opposite of what it seems like it should mean from the dictionary definition.

[BostonCard]

So, in looking it up, I learned something...

(courtesy of wikipedia):

In American law, a matter is moot if further legal proceedings with regard to it can have no effect, or events have placed it beyond the reach of the law. Thereby the matter has been deprived of practical significance or rendered purely academic.

This is different from the ordinary British meaning of "moot", which means "debatable". The shift in usage was first observed in the United States. The U.S. development of this word stems from the practice of moot courts, in which hypothetical or fictional cases were argued as a part of legal education. These purely academic issues led the U.S. courts to describe cases where developing circumstances made any judgment ineffective as "moot". The doctrine can be compared to the ripeness doctrine, another judge-made rule, that holds that judges should not rule on cases based entirely on anticipated disputes or hypothetical facts. Similar doctrines prevent the federal courts of the United States from issuing advisory opinions.[1]

BC

[BostonCard]

So, in looking it up, I learned something...

(courtesy of wikipedia):

In American law, a matter is moot if further legal proceedings with regard to it can have no effect, or events have placed it beyond the reach of the law. Thereby the matter has been deprived of practical significance or rendered purely academic.

This is different from the ordinary British meaning of "moot", which means "debatable". The shift in usage was first observed in the United States. The U.S. development of this word stems from the practice of moot courts, in which hypothetical or fictional cases were argued as a part of legal education. These purely academic issues led the U.S. courts to describe cases where developing circumstances made any judgment ineffective as "moot". The doctrine can be compared to the ripeness doctrine, another judge-made rule, that holds that judges should not rule on cases based entirely on anticipated disputes or hypothetical facts. Similar doctrines prevent the federal courts of the United States from issuing advisory opinions.[1]

BC

[Mick]

I assume it used the phrase "moot point":

moot point. An issue that is subject to, or open for discussion or debate, to which no satisfactory answer is found; originally, one to be definitively determined by an assembly of the people.

I can't watch the video right now but I think that covers the standard use of "moot point", it's sort of interesting that it ends up being used to mean the opposite of what it seems like it should mean from the dictionary definition.

...used the word "mute" when she meant "moot."  Our conversation:

HER:  "It's not debateable.  It's a mute point."
MICK: "It's silent?  It's a silent point?"
HER:  "No, it's a mute point."
MICK:  "It's a point that doesn't speak?"
HER:    (exasperated).  "NO!  It's a mute point!!"
MICK:  "Do you mean a moot point, basically a purely academic point with no real meaning in this context?"
HER:    "Yes, that's what I said, a mute point."

[Mick]

I assume it used the phrase "moot point":

moot point. An issue that is subject to, or open for discussion or debate, to which no satisfactory answer is found; originally, one to be definitively determined by an assembly of the people.

I can't watch the video right now but I think that covers the standard use of "moot point", it's sort of interesting that it ends up being used to mean the opposite of what it seems like it should mean from the dictionary definition.

...used the word "mute" when she meant "moot."  Our conversation:

HER:  "It's not debateable.  It's a mute point."
MICK: "It's silent?  It's a silent point?"
HER:  "No, it's a mute point."
MICK:  "It's a point that doesn't speak?"
HER:    (exasperated).  "NO!  It's a mute point!!"
MICK:  "Do you mean a moot point, basically a purely academic point with no real meaning in this context?"
HER:    "Yes, that's what I said, a mute point."

[GoodGrief]

[quote author=stupac2 link=topic=10603.msg97968#msg97968 date=1410479693]
I assume it used the phrase "moot point":

moot point. An issue that is subject to, or open for discussion or debate, to which no satisfactory answer is found; originally, one to be definitively determined by an assembly of the people.

I can't watch the video right now but I think that covers the standard use of "moot point", it's sort of interesting that it ends up being used to mean the opposite of what it seems like it should mean from the dictionary definition.

...used the word "mute" when she meant "moot."  Our conversation:

HER:  "It's not debateable.  It's a mute point."
MICK: "It's silent?  It's a silent point?"
HER:  "No, it's a mute point."
MICK:  "It's a point that doesn't speak?"
HER:    (exasperated).  "NO!  It's a mute point!!"
MICK:  "Do you mean a moot point, basically a purely academic point with no real meaning in this context?"
HER:    "Yes, that's what I said, a mute point."
[/quote]

aaand, this is relevant. sorry for the ginormous tangent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ifdqEmlx-I

[GoodGrief]

[quote author=stupac2 link=topic=10603.msg97968#msg97968 date=1410479693]
I assume it used the phrase "moot point":

moot point. An issue that is subject to, or open for discussion or debate, to which no satisfactory answer is found; originally, one to be definitively determined by an assembly of the people.

I can't watch the video right now but I think that covers the standard use of "moot point", it's sort of interesting that it ends up being used to mean the opposite of what it seems like it should mean from the dictionary definition.

...used the word "mute" when she meant "moot."  Our conversation:

HER:  "It's not debateable.  It's a mute point."
MICK: "It's silent?  It's a silent point?"
HER:  "No, it's a mute point."
MICK:  "It's a point that doesn't speak?"
HER:    (exasperated).  "NO!  It's a mute point!!"
MICK:  "Do you mean a moot point, basically a purely academic point with no real meaning in this context?"
HER:    "Yes, that's what I said, a mute point."
[/quote]

aaand, this is relevant. sorry for the ginormous tangent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ifdqEmlx-I

[Rally]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=10603.msg97971#msg97971 date=1410480741]
[quote author=stupac2 link=topic=10603.msg97968#msg97968 date=1410479693]
I assume it used the phrase "moot point":

moot point. An issue that is subject to, or open for discussion or debate, to which no satisfactory answer is found; originally, one to be definitively determined by an assembly of the people.

I can't watch the video right now but I think that covers the standard use of "moot point", it's sort of interesting that it ends up being used to mean the opposite of what it seems like it should mean from the dictionary definition.

...used the word "mute" when she meant "moot."  Our conversation:

HER:  "It's not debateable.  It's a mute point."
MICK: "It's silent?  It's a silent point?"
HER:  "No, it's a mute point."
MICK:  "It's a point that doesn't speak?"
HER:    (exasperated).  "NO!  It's a mute point!!"
MICK:  "Do you mean a moot point, basically a purely academic point with no real meaning in this context?"
HER:    "Yes, that's what I said, a mute point."
[/quote]

aaand, this is relevant. sorry for the ginormous tangent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ifdqEmlx-I
[/quote]

And I thought a moot was a water barrier built around a castle.  Just following this thread gives my degree more value every day.  Thanks, guys.  Yor the best!

[Rally]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=10603.msg97971#msg97971 date=1410480741]
[quote author=stupac2 link=topic=10603.msg97968#msg97968 date=1410479693]
I assume it used the phrase "moot point":

moot point. An issue that is subject to, or open for discussion or debate, to which no satisfactory answer is found; originally, one to be definitively determined by an assembly of the people.

I can't watch the video right now but I think that covers the standard use of "moot point", it's sort of interesting that it ends up being used to mean the opposite of what it seems like it should mean from the dictionary definition.

...used the word "mute" when she meant "moot."  Our conversation:

HER:  "It's not debateable.  It's a mute point."
MICK: "It's silent?  It's a silent point?"
HER:  "No, it's a mute point."
MICK:  "It's a point that doesn't speak?"
HER:    (exasperated).  "NO!  It's a mute point!!"
MICK:  "Do you mean a moot point, basically a purely academic point with no real meaning in this context?"
HER:    "Yes, that's what I said, a mute point."
[/quote]

aaand, this is relevant. sorry for the ginormous tangent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ifdqEmlx-I
[/quote]

And I thought a moot was a water barrier built around a castle.  Just following this thread gives my degree more value every day.  Thanks, guys.  Yor the best!