[BobK]

The women have had a 30 second clock for years time for the men to man up  :P

Here's the problem with the new rules.  They are confusing.  So more causal fans who come to many games but don't study the game will be thrown.  Why this?  why that?  Just silly

[BobK]

The women have had a 30 second clock for years time for the men to man up  :P

Here's the problem with the new rules.  They are confusing.  So more causal fans who come to many games but don't study the game will be thrown.  Why this?  why that?  Just silly

[MustardtheBallCarrier]

A 30 second clock combined with the zone defenses that are allowed in college ball is going to make it difficult to run a lot of good stuff out of the half court set...but perhaps that's the idea behind the rule change. I would look for a lot of teams to eschew running plays and motion offenses and just play the type of Barnum and Bailey offense seen in the NBA.

I'll take that bet.  Thirty seconds is an eternity.  Plenty of time to run sets, reset, run sets again.  When it comes to NBA offense, you are just completely wrong.  The offensive and defensive schemes in the pros are, in general, way ahead of college (which is what makes Lebron's Cavs team such a remarkable exception -- they are playing high school offense in a league that has otherwise become very sophisticated).  But, by your own admission you haven't watched the NBA for 30 years, so I don't know where that comment is coming from.

The biggest issue in the college game is really floor spacing.  Shooting isn't good enough and teams can pack the paint with long defenders.  No scheme is as important as the need to create space to operate.  Here again the NBA is light years ahead of college with stretch fours and fives, the whole point of which is to unclog the paint offensively.

[quote author=MustardtheBallCarrier link=topic=12244.msg120367#msg120367 date=1433895358]
  You also have hit on every crotchety false narrative about pro basketball.  Nice job.

It may reflect crotchetiness but it's not false. I defy you to tell me what a foul is in the NBA....without knowing who got fouled and who did the fouling. And traveling? Why even have the rule?
OK...you like the NBA. You seem to be in a large group these days but as a longtime basketball player and fan, I find it unwatchable.
[/quote]

Really?  Is pro basketball officiated as consistently as it should be?  No, it is not.  Are calls blown?  Yes, all the time.  The same could be said of baseball (where the strike zone changes from umpire to umpire and game to game, if not inning to inning at worst), football (where there is a great deal of uncertainty about what constitutes defensive pass interference or offensive holding), hockey (where the game is known to be officiated very differently in the playoffs) and soccer (where fouls that result in penalty shots and play-ons can seem like coin flips).  Does that disqualify every major American pro sport and the most popular game in the world?  Of course not.  Refereeing is hard.  Moreover, if your complaint is the way the NBA is officiated, do you honestly believe that the college refs (part-time, decentralized, conference by conference) are more consistent or better?  Of course not.

I like college football more than the NFL.  I prefer pro basketball and baseball to college.  Why?  I'm not sure.  I guess I have more of an emotional connection with college football and in the case of basketball and baseball, I appreciate the better athleticism and skill.  Nothing particularly scientific.  If you like college basketball better than the NBA, that's awesome.  I'm not trying to change your mind or make you watch more NBA basketball.  But please, stay away from these tired and misinformed stereotypes about the NBA.  You are really missing a beautiful game.

[MustardtheBallCarrier]

A 30 second clock combined with the zone defenses that are allowed in college ball is going to make it difficult to run a lot of good stuff out of the half court set...but perhaps that's the idea behind the rule change. I would look for a lot of teams to eschew running plays and motion offenses and just play the type of Barnum and Bailey offense seen in the NBA.

I'll take that bet.  Thirty seconds is an eternity.  Plenty of time to run sets, reset, run sets again.  When it comes to NBA offense, you are just completely wrong.  The offensive and defensive schemes in the pros are, in general, way ahead of college (which is what makes Lebron's Cavs team such a remarkable exception -- they are playing high school offense in a league that has otherwise become very sophisticated).  But, by your own admission you haven't watched the NBA for 30 years, so I don't know where that comment is coming from.

The biggest issue in the college game is really floor spacing.  Shooting isn't good enough and teams can pack the paint with long defenders.  No scheme is as important as the need to create space to operate.  Here again the NBA is light years ahead of college with stretch fours and fives, the whole point of which is to unclog the paint offensively.

[quote author=MustardtheBallCarrier link=topic=12244.msg120367#msg120367 date=1433895358]
  You also have hit on every crotchety false narrative about pro basketball.  Nice job.

It may reflect crotchetiness but it's not false. I defy you to tell me what a foul is in the NBA....without knowing who got fouled and who did the fouling. And traveling? Why even have the rule?
OK...you like the NBA. You seem to be in a large group these days but as a longtime basketball player and fan, I find it unwatchable.
[/quote]

Really?  Is pro basketball officiated as consistently as it should be?  No, it is not.  Are calls blown?  Yes, all the time.  The same could be said of baseball (where the strike zone changes from umpire to umpire and game to game, if not inning to inning at worst), football (where there is a great deal of uncertainty about what constitutes defensive pass interference or offensive holding), hockey (where the game is known to be officiated very differently in the playoffs) and soccer (where fouls that result in penalty shots and play-ons can seem like coin flips).  Does that disqualify every major American pro sport and the most popular game in the world?  Of course not.  Refereeing is hard.  Moreover, if your complaint is the way the NBA is officiated, do you honestly believe that the college refs (part-time, decentralized, conference by conference) are more consistent or better?  Of course not.

I like college football more than the NFL.  I prefer pro basketball and baseball to college.  Why?  I'm not sure.  I guess I have more of an emotional connection with college football and in the case of basketball and baseball, I appreciate the better athleticism and skill.  Nothing particularly scientific.  If you like college basketball better than the NBA, that's awesome.  I'm not trying to change your mind or make you watch more NBA basketball.  But please, stay away from these tired and misinformed stereotypes about the NBA.  You are really missing a beautiful game.

[CornFed]

" these tired and misinformed stereotypes"

First you acknowledge the points that CI makes and dismiss them by saying "every sport does it".  Then you say he's misinformed.

Thanks for your insights.

[CornFed]

" these tired and misinformed stereotypes"

First you acknowledge the points that CI makes and dismiss them by saying "every sport does it".  Then you say he's misinformed.

Thanks for your insights.

[MustardtheBallCarrier]

" these tired and misinformed stereotypes"

First you acknowledge the points that CI makes and dismiss them by saying "every sport does it".  Then you say he's misinformed.

Thanks for your insights.

I was addressing (or at least trying to address) the idea that the NBA is somehow unique or worse in that respect. 

No offense taken and sorry if I ruffled any feathers.  Let's keep it civil and I will sign off from this thread.

[MustardtheBallCarrier]

" these tired and misinformed stereotypes"

First you acknowledge the points that CI makes and dismiss them by saying "every sport does it".  Then you say he's misinformed.

Thanks for your insights.

I was addressing (or at least trying to address) the idea that the NBA is somehow unique or worse in that respect. 

No offense taken and sorry if I ruffled any feathers.  Let's keep it civil and I will sign off from this thread.

[Leftcoast]

I watch a lot of college ball and a fair amount of NBA and I see games that took different trajectories in the new millennium.

The NBA game is more enjoyable of late than it was in the 90s, an era when I shared the opinions of the detractors above.  The "maul ball" of Pat Riley's Miami and the Knicks is gone, the balance between front court and back court play is back (or even swung to the guards) and the clutching/holding/arm bars reduced by recent rule changes.  In my opinion the NBAs worst flaw is the overly long regular season that encourages players to take games off and robs urgency from many regular season match-ups.

I like the fluid, organic play of teams like the Warriors and hope that their style of play becomes the new norm but even if Warrior-ball doesn't prevail the NBA provides a much more watchable game than it did 10-15 years ago. 

College ball .... less so.  It's still my first love but the One-and-Done crowd that have laid claim to the games new apex don't have enough time to develop fundamentals and their coaches don't even try.  Other coaches try to exert control over every facet of the game at the cost of pace and play.  Spacing is a problem and pure shooting is in short supply.

I recently looked back at some of the classic tournament games of the 90s, specifically the Duke games against UNLV and Kentucky, and was forced to acknowledge how much the college game has lost since then.  Will we ever see an NC between skilled three and four year players that developed together and built a team identity like so many of those classic 80s/90s teams did?  Think about senior laden squads led by players such as Drexler and Olajuwon, Laetner, Hurley and Hill, Jordan and Worthy and on and on.

It isn't hard to make the case that college ball has regressed in the last 15 years while the pro game has improved.  I love the college game but folks who feel differently are not making unsupportable claims.

Of course your results may vary ...

[Leftcoast]

I watch a lot of college ball and a fair amount of NBA and I see games that took different trajectories in the new millennium.

The NBA game is more enjoyable of late than it was in the 90s, an era when I shared the opinions of the detractors above.  The "maul ball" of Pat Riley's Miami and the Knicks is gone, the balance between front court and back court play is back (or even swung to the guards) and the clutching/holding/arm bars reduced by recent rule changes.  In my opinion the NBAs worst flaw is the overly long regular season that encourages players to take games off and robs urgency from many regular season match-ups.

I like the fluid, organic play of teams like the Warriors and hope that their style of play becomes the new norm but even if Warrior-ball doesn't prevail the NBA provides a much more watchable game than it did 10-15 years ago. 

College ball .... less so.  It's still my first love but the One-and-Done crowd that have laid claim to the games new apex don't have enough time to develop fundamentals and their coaches don't even try.  Other coaches try to exert control over every facet of the game at the cost of pace and play.  Spacing is a problem and pure shooting is in short supply.

I recently looked back at some of the classic tournament games of the 90s, specifically the Duke games against UNLV and Kentucky, and was forced to acknowledge how much the college game has lost since then.  Will we ever see an NC between skilled three and four year players that developed together and built a team identity like so many of those classic 80s/90s teams did?  Think about senior laden squads led by players such as Drexler and Olajuwon, Laetner, Hurley and Hill, Jordan and Worthy and on and on.

It isn't hard to make the case that college ball has regressed in the last 15 years while the pro game has improved.  I love the college game but folks who feel differently are not making unsupportable claims.

Of course your results may vary ...

[Mick]

I like the fluid, organic play of teams like the Warriors and hope that their style of play becomes the new norm but even if Warrior-ball doesn't prevail the NBA provides a much more watchable game than it did 10-15 years ago. 

Current playoffs must make you sick to your stomach then, right?

[Mick]

I like the fluid, organic play of teams like the Warriors and hope that their style of play becomes the new norm but even if Warrior-ball doesn't prevail the NBA provides a much more watchable game than it did 10-15 years ago. 

Current playoffs must make you sick to your stomach then, right?

[CowboyIndian]

I'm not trying to change your mind or make you watch more NBA basketball.  But please, stay away from these tired and misinformed stereotypes about the NBA.  You are really missing a beautiful game.

Really? It sounds a lot like you are. I acknowledged that you...and many thousands like you...are digging what the NBA is. I merely said I find it unwatchable....which I guess would keep it out of my 'beautiful game' category. And, since you apparently require repetition, these stereotypes are neither tired nor misinformed. They have merely eluded you.

[CowboyIndian]

I'm not trying to change your mind or make you watch more NBA basketball.  But please, stay away from these tired and misinformed stereotypes about the NBA.  You are really missing a beautiful game.

Really? It sounds a lot like you are. I acknowledged that you...and many thousands like you...are digging what the NBA is. I merely said I find it unwatchable....which I guess would keep it out of my 'beautiful game' category. And, since you apparently require repetition, these stereotypes are neither tired nor misinformed. They have merely eluded you.

[Leftcoast]

Current playoffs must make you sick to your stomach then, right? - Mick

Not sick but, yeah, I was expecting to see a more fluid final round.

Nonetheless, I'm enjoying the interplay between the Cav's dinosaur ball and the Warriors play with each team trying to play the finals at their speed.  The Cavs want a half-court game and long possessions that end with them giving the ball to James preferably in a one-on-one situation.  They run endless isolation plays where the ball is given to James and the rest of the team runs to the other side of the court broken up by the occasional pick and roll.    The Warriors want the antithesis of this.

Before this series I was confident the better team would beat a single superstar but so far James and the Cavs have dictated the pace of play.  I'm hopeful Kerr, Curry and team will figure this out - Just not as hopeful as I was before Sunday. 

Forget this series - Which style of play do you see the association moving toward in the next fiver years?  Fluid styles based upon ball movement, shotmakers and multi-position athletes or isolation offenses and maul-ball?

[Leftcoast]

Current playoffs must make you sick to your stomach then, right? - Mick

Not sick but, yeah, I was expecting to see a more fluid final round.

Nonetheless, I'm enjoying the interplay between the Cav's dinosaur ball and the Warriors play with each team trying to play the finals at their speed.  The Cavs want a half-court game and long possessions that end with them giving the ball to James preferably in a one-on-one situation.  They run endless isolation plays where the ball is given to James and the rest of the team runs to the other side of the court broken up by the occasional pick and roll.    The Warriors want the antithesis of this.

Before this series I was confident the better team would beat a single superstar but so far James and the Cavs have dictated the pace of play.  I'm hopeful Kerr, Curry and team will figure this out - Just not as hopeful as I was before Sunday. 

Forget this series - Which style of play do you see the association moving toward in the next fiver years?  Fluid styles based upon ball movement, shotmakers and multi-position athletes or isolation offenses and maul-ball?

[washingtonismoney]

Once that's accomplished, they'll say that what really hobbles scoring is pack-it-in defenses, and they'll start pushing for restrictions on the zone. Eventually, college ball, rather than being a different game, will simply be a crummier version. I don't see how that's good for anybody.

That's not accurate; NBA liberalized and went to zone defenses long ago. I think advocates want better, more flowing basketball period, regardless of whether it's played in college or the pros.


And I don't share your fears in general. College and pro football have been converging, rules-wise, for ages now; yet both versions are quite successful and offer different experiences. There's no reason college and pro basketball can't do the same.

[washingtonismoney]

Once that's accomplished, they'll say that what really hobbles scoring is pack-it-in defenses, and they'll start pushing for restrictions on the zone. Eventually, college ball, rather than being a different game, will simply be a crummier version. I don't see how that's good for anybody.

That's not accurate; NBA liberalized and went to zone defenses long ago. I think advocates want better, more flowing basketball period, regardless of whether it's played in college or the pros.


And I don't share your fears in general. College and pro football have been converging, rules-wise, for ages now; yet both versions are quite successful and offer different experiences. There's no reason college and pro basketball can't do the same.

[washingtonismoney]

As for the NFL and college football, I don't think there was ever a rule in place that created as fundamental different as the zone and shot-clock rules in the NBA.

I don't think that undermines my point at all. Rules differences aren't what drive interest in college sports.

[washingtonismoney]

As for the NFL and college football, I don't think there was ever a rule in place that created as fundamental different as the zone and shot-clock rules in the NBA.

I don't think that undermines my point at all. Rules differences aren't what drive interest in college sports.

[Leftcoast]

So why DO we love College ball over the Pro game?  Is it really because rules have created a slightly different version we enjoy more?  For me that's not the case.  If I cared only about watching the best athletes perform at the very highest level I'd watch the NBA and NFL.  So what makes the college game compelling?

Setting aside the obvious school affiliation (which of course is a big factor for all of us) here's elements that cause ME to prefer the college game.

1)  The regular season means more.  There are fewer meaningless games.  Can't say that about the NBA's 82 game season.
2)  College players show more passion.  Professionals cultivate a cool detachment while college kids let their emotions show.
3)  Rivalries matter in the college game but not so much in the pros.  Who's the biggest rival for Golden State? 
4)  Many college players play for the name on the front of the jersey rather than the one on the back.
5)  Pageantry - Bands, Mascots, Students, Colors
6)  Player growth and coaching.  We get to watch good players master fundamentals during a critical 4 year period

I hope the NCAA never adopts a 24 second clock but the longer shot clock is not the reason I prefer college.

 

[Leftcoast]

So why DO we love College ball over the Pro game?  Is it really because rules have created a slightly different version we enjoy more?  For me that's not the case.  If I cared only about watching the best athletes perform at the very highest level I'd watch the NBA and NFL.  So what makes the college game compelling?

Setting aside the obvious school affiliation (which of course is a big factor for all of us) here's elements that cause ME to prefer the college game.

1)  The regular season means more.  There are fewer meaningless games.  Can't say that about the NBA's 82 game season.
2)  College players show more passion.  Professionals cultivate a cool detachment while college kids let their emotions show.
3)  Rivalries matter in the college game but not so much in the pros.  Who's the biggest rival for Golden State? 
4)  Many college players play for the name on the front of the jersey rather than the one on the back.
5)  Pageantry - Bands, Mascots, Students, Colors
6)  Player growth and coaching.  We get to watch good players master fundamentals during a critical 4 year period

I hope the NCAA never adopts a 24 second clock but the longer shot clock is not the reason I prefer college.

 

[BostonCard]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebro...oser-ever/

He has caught some flack for his recent comments ("I feel confident because I'm the best player": http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2015/sto...best-world), but much as I like the Warriors and Steph Curry, it would be hard to deny that James' statement is well-founded.

BC

[BostonCard]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebro...oser-ever/

He has caught some flack for his recent comments ("I feel confident because I'm the best player": http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2015/sto...best-world), but much as I like the Warriors and Steph Curry, it would be hard to deny that James' statement is well-founded.

BC

[Mick]

Well if it was a two guy-on-on-one function, then I'd be worried.

[Mick]

Well if it was a two guy-on-on-one function, then I'd be worried.