[washingtonismoney]

Stanford's David Shaw adamantly supports the current rule, even though just this year he's lost running back Kelsey Young (to Boise State), fullback Patrick Skov (to Georgia Tech) and tight end Charlie Hopkins (to Virginia) to graduate transfers.

"I'd love to have those guys back," Shaw said. "But then I look at it and say, 'You know what? Would those guys be in position to where they're kind of rotating in with us?' If they have a chance to go be 'the guy' someplace else, they've done their part for me, for Stanford University. They've played their tails off, they've stayed the course with school, they graduated. You graduate from college in four years? No one should be able to tell you that you can't go someplace else to play a fifth year.

"If they change this rule so now I can force a kid to stay with me and be my backup, I think that's just cruel and unusual."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/col.../70951120/

[washingtonismoney]

Stanford's David Shaw adamantly supports the current rule, even though just this year he's lost running back Kelsey Young (to Boise State), fullback Patrick Skov (to Georgia Tech) and tight end Charlie Hopkins (to Virginia) to graduate transfers.

"I'd love to have those guys back," Shaw said. "But then I look at it and say, 'You know what? Would those guys be in position to where they're kind of rotating in with us?' If they have a chance to go be 'the guy' someplace else, they've done their part for me, for Stanford University. They've played their tails off, they've stayed the course with school, they graduated. You graduate from college in four years? No one should be able to tell you that you can't go someplace else to play a fifth year.

"If they change this rule so now I can force a kid to stay with me and be my backup, I think that's just cruel and unusual."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/col.../70951120/

[Nan3cy]

Good for DS.

[Nan3cy]

Good for DS.

[JohnR34231]

Do you really want to have someone on your team who doesn't want to be there? I don't think so.

[JohnR34231]

Do you really want to have someone on your team who doesn't want to be there? I don't think so.

[winflop]

I don't think those players didn't want to be here.  I think they saw an opportunity to play.  Had that opportunity not been there, I would guess most would have stayed, if not all of them.  Even Lyons would have waited until after football season to enroll in graduate school somewhere that has a Master's in Architecture.

[winflop]

I don't think those players didn't want to be here.  I think they saw an opportunity to play.  Had that opportunity not been there, I would guess most would have stayed, if not all of them.  Even Lyons would have waited until after football season to enroll in graduate school somewhere that has a Master's in Architecture.

[Spiny_Norman]

Stewart Mandel says that the grad transfer rule may be history soon.  Why?  Coaches and administrators don't like the freedom it affords the "student-athletes."  One admin said, "I don't think [the rule] fits into the core values of intercollegiate athletics . . . The kid from Eastern Washington is going to Oregon -- and [Eastern Washington is] opening the season [against] them. It just doesn't feel right."

http://www.foxsports.com/college-footbal...del-051115

Mandel does quote David Shaw's position as a counter to the hypocrisy of coaches and admins who might want to block these transfers.

[Spiny_Norman]

Stewart Mandel says that the grad transfer rule may be history soon.  Why?  Coaches and administrators don't like the freedom it affords the "student-athletes."  One admin said, "I don't think [the rule] fits into the core values of intercollegiate athletics . . . The kid from Eastern Washington is going to Oregon -- and [Eastern Washington is] opening the season [against] them. It just doesn't feel right."

http://www.foxsports.com/college-footbal...del-051115

Mandel does quote David Shaw's position as a counter to the hypocrisy of coaches and admins who might want to block these transfers.

[French Rage]

Stewart Mandel says that the grad transfer rule may be history soon.  Why?  Coaches and administrators don't like the freedom it affords the "student-athletes."  One admin said, "I don't think [the rule] fits into the core values of intercollegiate athletics . . . The kid from Eastern Washington is going to Oregon -- and [Eastern Washington is] opening the season [against] them. It just doesn't feel right."

http://www.foxsports.com/college-footbal...del-051115

Mandel does quote David Shaw's position as a counter to the hypocrisy of coaches and admins who might want to block these transfers.

I don't get the admin's reasoning there.  Allowing a student to pursue their interest in graduate education and placing athletic concerns secondary to that goes against the purpose of intercollegiate athletics?

[French Rage]

Stewart Mandel says that the grad transfer rule may be history soon.  Why?  Coaches and administrators don't like the freedom it affords the "student-athletes."  One admin said, "I don't think [the rule] fits into the core values of intercollegiate athletics . . . The kid from Eastern Washington is going to Oregon -- and [Eastern Washington is] opening the season [against] them. It just doesn't feel right."

http://www.foxsports.com/college-footbal...del-051115

Mandel does quote David Shaw's position as a counter to the hypocrisy of coaches and admins who might want to block these transfers.

I don't get the admin's reasoning there.  Allowing a student to pursue their interest in graduate education and placing athletic concerns secondary to that goes against the purpose of intercollegiate athletics?

[dabigv13]

[quote author=Spiny_Norman link=topic=12118.msg118090#msg118090 date=1431366019]
Stewart Mandel says that the grad transfer rule may be history soon.  Why?  Coaches and administrators don't like the freedom it affords the "student-athletes."  One admin said, "I don't think [the rule] fits into the core values of intercollegiate athletics . . . The kid from Eastern Washington is going to Oregon -- and [Eastern Washington is] opening the season [against] them. It just doesn't feel right."

http://www.foxsports.com/college-footbal...del-051115

Mandel does quote David Shaw's position as a counter to the hypocrisy of coaches and admins who might want to block these transfers.

I don't get the admin's reasoning there.  Allowing a student to pursue their interest in graduate education and placing athletic concerns secondary to that goes against the purpose of intercollegiate athletics?
[/quote]

I'm very skeptical that the majority of these transfers have anything to do with education. I think in the case of some of the guys that left Stanford to go to other programs, maybe some of it is interest in a particular graduate program. I think the majority of these graduate transfers are more about where they can get the most playing time.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the graduate transfer rule, if there were some meaningful penalties or mechanisms put in place to prevent coaches from doing the same thing.

[dabigv13]

[quote author=Spiny_Norman link=topic=12118.msg118090#msg118090 date=1431366019]
Stewart Mandel says that the grad transfer rule may be history soon.  Why?  Coaches and administrators don't like the freedom it affords the "student-athletes."  One admin said, "I don't think [the rule] fits into the core values of intercollegiate athletics . . . The kid from Eastern Washington is going to Oregon -- and [Eastern Washington is] opening the season [against] them. It just doesn't feel right."

http://www.foxsports.com/college-footbal...del-051115

Mandel does quote David Shaw's position as a counter to the hypocrisy of coaches and admins who might want to block these transfers.

I don't get the admin's reasoning there.  Allowing a student to pursue their interest in graduate education and placing athletic concerns secondary to that goes against the purpose of intercollegiate athletics?
[/quote]

I'm very skeptical that the majority of these transfers have anything to do with education. I think in the case of some of the guys that left Stanford to go to other programs, maybe some of it is interest in a particular graduate program. I think the majority of these graduate transfers are more about where they can get the most playing time.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the graduate transfer rule, if there were some meaningful penalties or mechanisms put in place to prevent coaches from doing the same thing.

[Spiny_Norman]

[quote author=French Rage link=topic=12118.msg118091#msg118091 date=1431366971]
[quote author=Spiny_Norman link=topic=12118.msg118090#msg118090 date=1431366019]
Stewart Mandel says that the grad transfer rule may be history soon.  Why?  Coaches and administrators don't like the freedom it affords the "student-athletes."  One admin said, "I don't think [the rule] fits into the core values of intercollegiate athletics . . . The kid from Eastern Washington is going to Oregon -- and [Eastern Washington is] opening the season [against] them. It just doesn't feel right."

http://www.foxsports.com/college-footbal...del-051115

Mandel does quote David Shaw's position as a counter to the hypocrisy of coaches and admins who might want to block these transfers.

I don't get the admin's reasoning there.  Allowing a student to pursue their interest in graduate education and placing athletic concerns secondary to that goes against the purpose of intercollegiate athletics?
[/quote]

I'm very skeptical that the majority of these transfers have anything to do with education. I think in the case of some of the guys that left Stanford to go to other programs, maybe some of it is interest in a particular graduate program. I think the majority of these graduate transfers are more about where they can get the most playing time.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the graduate transfer rule, if there were some meaningful penalties or mechanisms put in place to prevent coaches from doing the same thing.
[/quote]

Dabigv, you are correct to be skeptical.  Mandel cites an NCAA study which found that 40% of graduate transfers drop out of school after one semester.  But the coaches and admins are speaking about protecting their interests, not those of the schools or the athletes.

[Spiny_Norman]

[quote author=French Rage link=topic=12118.msg118091#msg118091 date=1431366971]
[quote author=Spiny_Norman link=topic=12118.msg118090#msg118090 date=1431366019]
Stewart Mandel says that the grad transfer rule may be history soon.  Why?  Coaches and administrators don't like the freedom it affords the "student-athletes."  One admin said, "I don't think [the rule] fits into the core values of intercollegiate athletics . . . The kid from Eastern Washington is going to Oregon -- and [Eastern Washington is] opening the season [against] them. It just doesn't feel right."

http://www.foxsports.com/college-footbal...del-051115

Mandel does quote David Shaw's position as a counter to the hypocrisy of coaches and admins who might want to block these transfers.

I don't get the admin's reasoning there.  Allowing a student to pursue their interest in graduate education and placing athletic concerns secondary to that goes against the purpose of intercollegiate athletics?
[/quote]

I'm very skeptical that the majority of these transfers have anything to do with education. I think in the case of some of the guys that left Stanford to go to other programs, maybe some of it is interest in a particular graduate program. I think the majority of these graduate transfers are more about where they can get the most playing time.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the graduate transfer rule, if there were some meaningful penalties or mechanisms put in place to prevent coaches from doing the same thing.
[/quote]

Dabigv, you are correct to be skeptical.  Mandel cites an NCAA study which found that 40% of graduate transfers drop out of school after one semester.  But the coaches and admins are speaking about protecting their interests, not those of the schools or the athletes.

[JohnR34231]

If a kid has received his degree and wants to go some place for his last year of eligibility where he thinks he is going to get a better opportunity and more playing time, I don't see the harm in it.

Personally, I can't get that excited about the fact that his motivation to do it is based more on athletics than academics.

[JohnR34231]

If a kid has received his degree and wants to go some place for his last year of eligibility where he thinks he is going to get a better opportunity and more playing time, I don't see the harm in it.

Personally, I can't get that excited about the fact that his motivation to do it is based more on athletics than academics.

[CTcard]

[quote author=dabigv link=topic=12118.msg118092#msg118092 date=1431368237]
I'm very skeptical that the majority of these transfers have anything to do with education. I think in the case of some of the guys that left Stanford to go to other programs, maybe some of it is interest in a particular graduate program. I think the majority of these graduate transfers are more about where they can get the most playing time.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the graduate transfer rule, if there were some meaningful penalties or mechanisms put in place to prevent coaches from doing the same thing.

Dabigv, you are correct to be skeptical.  Mandel cites an NCAA study which found that 40% of graduate transfers drop out of school after one semester.  But the coaches and admins are speaking about protecting their interests, not those of the schools or the athletes.
[/quote]

For anybody other than an athlete, this isn't transferring, it's going to grad school.

In the case of most of the football and basketball players, the primary interest is almost certainly playing time. I am actually surprised only 40% don't continue in grad school - there must be athletes from many other sports in that total.

I also think comparing to coaches is silly. There's all sorts of things coaches don't have to do that the athletes do - like maintaining a certain GPA, going to class, etc. It's a different position with different ground rules. 

Nevertheless, if an athlete graduates from school in four years they have completed their academic tasks and should be entirely free to pursue other opportunities even if for playing time or exposure or whatever else they want.
For most of the things the NCAA gets a lot of grief over, there is at least a conceptual argument for their stance in terms of academic and athletic balance. In this case I don't see such an argument.

[CTcard]

[quote author=dabigv link=topic=12118.msg118092#msg118092 date=1431368237]
I'm very skeptical that the majority of these transfers have anything to do with education. I think in the case of some of the guys that left Stanford to go to other programs, maybe some of it is interest in a particular graduate program. I think the majority of these graduate transfers are more about where they can get the most playing time.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the graduate transfer rule, if there were some meaningful penalties or mechanisms put in place to prevent coaches from doing the same thing.

Dabigv, you are correct to be skeptical.  Mandel cites an NCAA study which found that 40% of graduate transfers drop out of school after one semester.  But the coaches and admins are speaking about protecting their interests, not those of the schools or the athletes.
[/quote]

For anybody other than an athlete, this isn't transferring, it's going to grad school.

In the case of most of the football and basketball players, the primary interest is almost certainly playing time. I am actually surprised only 40% don't continue in grad school - there must be athletes from many other sports in that total.

I also think comparing to coaches is silly. There's all sorts of things coaches don't have to do that the athletes do - like maintaining a certain GPA, going to class, etc. It's a different position with different ground rules. 

Nevertheless, if an athlete graduates from school in four years they have completed their academic tasks and should be entirely free to pursue other opportunities even if for playing time or exposure or whatever else they want.
For most of the things the NCAA gets a lot of grief over, there is at least a conceptual argument for their stance in terms of academic and athletic balance. In this case I don't see such an argument.

[dabigv13]

I think it's not exactly an issue worthy of much debate; the real problem in college athletics is the hordes of student-athletes who don't get a degree, not the ones that do.

OTOH this isn't about graduate school at all. If a kid graduates in 4 years and wants to go to graduate school, they can pay their own way and go wherever they'd like. Or get a grant. I think it's kind of a silly mercenary system. But again, I think the NCAA has much bigger fish to fry than this issue, and I doubt that more than a handful of starter-quality players make use of the rule every year.

[dabigv13]

I think it's not exactly an issue worthy of much debate; the real problem in college athletics is the hordes of student-athletes who don't get a degree, not the ones that do.

OTOH this isn't about graduate school at all. If a kid graduates in 4 years and wants to go to graduate school, they can pay their own way and go wherever they'd like. Or get a grant. I think it's kind of a silly mercenary system. But again, I think the NCAA has much bigger fish to fry than this issue, and I doubt that more than a handful of starter-quality players make use of the rule every year.

[82lsju]

In the case of most of the football and basketball players, the primary interest is almost certainly playing time. I am actually surprised only 40% don't continue in grad school - there must be athletes from many other sports in that total.

The NCAA identified 353 graduate transfers from 2011 and 2012, and was able to track academic outcomes for 258 (73%).  [anyone want to bet that most of the 27% they could not find outcomes for did not complete the graduate degree?]

After two years, only one-quarter of the graduate transfers in football and one-third in men’s basketball had earned a graduate degree. Completion percentages were higher outside of those two sports, especially among women.  Nearly 40% of the football players in this sample departed by the end of their first graduate term. Non-completers typically withdrew at the point when athletics eligibility was exhausted.



see more here

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/rese...-transfers

[82lsju]

In the case of most of the football and basketball players, the primary interest is almost certainly playing time. I am actually surprised only 40% don't continue in grad school - there must be athletes from many other sports in that total.

The NCAA identified 353 graduate transfers from 2011 and 2012, and was able to track academic outcomes for 258 (73%).  [anyone want to bet that most of the 27% they could not find outcomes for did not complete the graduate degree?]

After two years, only one-quarter of the graduate transfers in football and one-third in men’s basketball had earned a graduate degree. Completion percentages were higher outside of those two sports, especially among women.  Nearly 40% of the football players in this sample departed by the end of their first graduate term. Non-completers typically withdrew at the point when athletics eligibility was exhausted.



see more here

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/rese...-transfers

[CTcard]

After two years, only one-quarter of the graduate transfers in football and one-third in men’s basketball had earned a graduate degree. Completion percentages were higher outside of those two sports, especially among women. 

Thanks for the extra info.

I must be cynical.
I am actually rather surprised to the pleasant side that 41% of men's basketball players and 31% of football players were either graduated or still enrolled in their programs.

[CTcard]

After two years, only one-quarter of the graduate transfers in football and one-third in men’s basketball had earned a graduate degree. Completion percentages were higher outside of those two sports, especially among women. 

Thanks for the extra info.

I must be cynical.
I am actually rather surprised to the pleasant side that 41% of men's basketball players and 31% of football players were either graduated or still enrolled in their programs.

[BostonCard]

https://twitter.com/rodgilmore/status/59...3511660544

nice that Kelly is called out here.

BC

[BostonCard]

https://twitter.com/rodgilmore/status/59...3511660544

nice that Kelly is called out here.

BC

[ThePassionOfTheChryst]

The rule states that these players must graduate before transferring, correct?  Then I don't see how it runs counter to the "core values of intercollegiate athletics."  If anything, perhaps it will motivate more young men to actually get their degrees, and in a timely fashion.

[ThePassionOfTheChryst]

The rule states that these players must graduate before transferring, correct?  Then I don't see how it runs counter to the "core values of intercollegiate athletics."  If anything, perhaps it will motivate more young men to actually get their degrees, and in a timely fashion.

[Mick]

The rule states that these players must graduate before transferring, correct?  Then I don't see how it runs counter to the "core values of intercollegiate athletics."  If anything, perhaps it will motivate more young men to actually get their degrees, and in a timely fashion.

Nicely put.  Players already have so, so little power in the system.  If a player has spent four years at an institution and played three of those four years and he has graduated, he has completed his obligation to the school in my mind.  If a coach has a four year contract and it runs out, he's free to go anywhere.  So I think a fifth year graduate transfer rule makes sense, and as you say, it may motivate young men to get a degree.

And so what if it's for more playing time?  If the player is a backup at a loaded position, why wouldn't a coach want to assist them?

[Mick]

The rule states that these players must graduate before transferring, correct?  Then I don't see how it runs counter to the "core values of intercollegiate athletics."  If anything, perhaps it will motivate more young men to actually get their degrees, and in a timely fashion.

Nicely put.  Players already have so, so little power in the system.  If a player has spent four years at an institution and played three of those four years and he has graduated, he has completed his obligation to the school in my mind.  If a coach has a four year contract and it runs out, he's free to go anywhere.  So I think a fifth year graduate transfer rule makes sense, and as you say, it may motivate young men to get a degree.

And so what if it's for more playing time?  If the player is a backup at a loaded position, why wouldn't a coach want to assist them?

[BostonCard]

Nicely put.  Players already have so, so little power in the system.  If a player has spent four years at an institution and played three of those four years and he has graduated, he has completed his obligation to the school in my mind.  If a coach has a four year contract and it runs out, he's free to go anywhere.  So I think a fifth year graduate transfer rule makes sense, and as you say, it may motivate young men to get a degree.

And so what if it's for more playing time?  If the player is a backup at a loaded position, why wouldn't a coach want to assist them?

Hell, if a coach is in the middle of a four year contract, he is still pretty much free to go anywhere.  There's a buyout clause to be considered, but that hasn't really stopped anyone, has it.  It'd be nice if there were a one-year sit out requirement, but there's no way that would be allowable under labor laws.  That's why the same standard should be applied to football players.

BC

[BostonCard]

Nicely put.  Players already have so, so little power in the system.  If a player has spent four years at an institution and played three of those four years and he has graduated, he has completed his obligation to the school in my mind.  If a coach has a four year contract and it runs out, he's free to go anywhere.  So I think a fifth year graduate transfer rule makes sense, and as you say, it may motivate young men to get a degree.

And so what if it's for more playing time?  If the player is a backup at a loaded position, why wouldn't a coach want to assist them?

Hell, if a coach is in the middle of a four year contract, he is still pretty much free to go anywhere.  There's a buyout clause to be considered, but that hasn't really stopped anyone, has it.  It'd be nice if there were a one-year sit out requirement, but there's no way that would be allowable under labor laws.  That's why the same standard should be applied to football players.

BC

[winflop]

[quote author=ThePassionOfTheChryst link=topic=12118.msg118101#msg118101 date=1431376586]
The rule states that these players must graduate before transferring, correct?  Then I don't see how it runs counter to the "core values of intercollegiate athletics."  If anything, perhaps it will motivate more young men to actually get their degrees, and in a timely fashion.

Nicely put.  Players already have so, so little power in the system.  If a player has spent four years at an institution and played three of those four years and he has graduated, he has completed his obligation to the school in my mind.  If a coach has a four year contract and it runs out, he's free to go anywhere.  So I think a fifth year graduate transfer rule makes sense, and as you say, it may motivate young men to get a degree.

And so what if it's for more playing time?  If the player is a backup at a loaded position, why wouldn't a coach want to assist them?
[/quote]

It runs counter to the core values of the self-righteous morons in many ADs who think they are entitled to four years from the ATHLETE, regardless of whether the STUDENT has met his educational goals or not...

[winflop]

[quote author=ThePassionOfTheChryst link=topic=12118.msg118101#msg118101 date=1431376586]
The rule states that these players must graduate before transferring, correct?  Then I don't see how it runs counter to the "core values of intercollegiate athletics."  If anything, perhaps it will motivate more young men to actually get their degrees, and in a timely fashion.

Nicely put.  Players already have so, so little power in the system.  If a player has spent four years at an institution and played three of those four years and he has graduated, he has completed his obligation to the school in my mind.  If a coach has a four year contract and it runs out, he's free to go anywhere.  So I think a fifth year graduate transfer rule makes sense, and as you say, it may motivate young men to get a degree.

And so what if it's for more playing time?  If the player is a backup at a loaded position, why wouldn't a coach want to assist them?
[/quote]

It runs counter to the core values of the self-righteous morons in many ADs who think they are entitled to four years from the ATHLETE, regardless of whether the STUDENT has met his educational goals or not...

[BostonCard]

It runs counter to the core values of the self-righteous morons in many ADs who think they are entitled to four years from the ATHLETE, regardless of whether the STUDENT has met his educational goals or not...

A metaphorical up-arrow for that post.

BC

[BostonCard]

It runs counter to the core values of the self-righteous morons in many ADs who think they are entitled to four years from the ATHLETE, regardless of whether the STUDENT has met his educational goals or not...

A metaphorical up-arrow for that post.

BC