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A sad op-ed from a county health director from Missouri.  Makes me think about the parents of Sandy Hook victims who won defamation lawsuits against conspiracy theory groupies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/20...oronavirus
(11-18-2020, 04:15 PM)DocSavage87 Wrote: [ -> ]A sad op-ed from a county health director from Missouri.  Makes me think about the parents of Sandy Hook victims who won defamation lawsuits against conspiracy theory groupies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/20...oronavirus

In case anyone is thinking this kind of thing is peculiar to flyover country, a reminder of how health officers are treated in California: https://calmatters.org/health/coronaviru...-pandemic/
(11-18-2020, 07:43 PM)82 Card Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-18-2020, 04:15 PM)DocSavage87 Wrote: [ -> ]A sad op-ed from a county health director from Missouri.  Makes me think about the parents of Sandy Hook victims who won defamation lawsuits against conspiracy theory groupies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/20...oronavirus

In case anyone is thinking this kind of thing is peculiar to flyover country, a reminder of how health officers are treated in California: https://calmatters.org/health/coronaviru...-pandemic/

How many counties are there in the US?
And this article picked the most "notorious" - and while some are obviously deplorable and out of line, some are perfectly fine in my book (especially the taking out of a full page ad asking Cody to donate her salary to those in need as a result of her orders).  Why is it okay to lobby elected decisionmakers, but not try and influence Dear Bureaucrats?  And before you answer, try and keep it principled and think of the alternate possibility - i.e., if the County health official said "anything goes, no need for masks, etc."  Don't you think it's fair game to write letters, take out ads, what have you to try and get them to think sensibly?
(11-18-2020, 07:55 PM)teejers1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-18-2020, 07:43 PM)82 Card Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-18-2020, 04:15 PM)DocSavage87 Wrote: [ -> ]A sad op-ed from a county health director from Missouri.  Makes me think about the parents of Sandy Hook victims who won defamation lawsuits against conspiracy theory groupies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/20...oronavirus

In case anyone is thinking this kind of thing is peculiar to flyover country, a reminder of how health officers are treated in California: https://calmatters.org/health/coronaviru...-pandemic/

How many counties are there in the US?
And this article picked the most "notorious" - and while some are obviously deplorable and out of line, some are perfectly fine in my book (especially the taking out of a full page ad asking Cody to donate her salary to those in need as a result of her orders).  Why is it okay to lobby elected decisionmakers, but not try and influence Dear Bureaucrats?  And before you answer, try and keep it principled and think of the alternate possibility - i.e., if the County health official said "anything goes, no need for masks, etc."  Don't you think it's fair game to write letters, take out ads, what have you to try and get them to think sensibly?

Threatening officials is not an acceptable form of lobbying. Nothing to discuss.
(11-18-2020, 10:06 PM)82 Card Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-18-2020, 07:55 PM)teejers1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-18-2020, 07:43 PM)82 Card Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-18-2020, 04:15 PM)DocSavage87 Wrote: [ -> ]A sad op-ed from a county health director from Missouri.  Makes me think about the parents of Sandy Hook victims who won defamation lawsuits against conspiracy theory groupies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/20...oronavirus

In case anyone is thinking this kind of thing is peculiar to flyover country, a reminder of how health officers are treated in California: https://calmatters.org/health/coronaviru...-pandemic/

How many counties are there in the US?
And this article picked the most "notorious" - and while some are obviously deplorable and out of line, some are perfectly fine in my book (especially the taking out of a full page ad asking Cody to donate her salary to those in need as a result of her orders).  Why is it okay to lobby elected decisionmakers, but not try and influence Dear Bureaucrats?  And before you answer, try and keep it principled and think of the alternate possibility - i.e., if the County health official said "anything goes, no need for masks, etc."  Don't you think it's fair game to write letters, take out ads, what have you to try and get them to think sensibly?

Threatening officials is not an acceptable form of lobbying. Nothing to discuss.

Taking out ads like the one mentioned in the article is not "threatening officials."  Nothing to discuss.  (I agree that actual threats are not discussion-worthy).
(11-19-2020, 12:00 PM)teejers1 Wrote: [ -> ]Taking out ads like the one mentioned in the article is not "threatening officials."  Nothing to discuss.  (I agree that actual threats are not discussion-worthy).

I'm sure taking out full-page ads demonizing a health care official wouldn't incite any of the sketchier parts of the "COVID = hoax" folks to take things further.  It's something to think about on both sides, although IMHO it's mostly one side who brags about being armed, has actually been arrested for plots to kidnap & execute policy makers, and continues to spread flagrant lies guaranteed to divide our country & promote violence.
(11-19-2020, 01:02 PM)DocSavage87 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-19-2020, 12:00 PM)teejers1 Wrote: [ -> ]Taking out ads like the one mentioned in the article is not "threatening officials."  Nothing to discuss.  (I agree that actual threats are not discussion-worthy).

I'm sure taking out full-page ads demonizing a health care official wouldn't incite any of the sketchier parts of the "COVID = hoax" folks to take things further.  It's something to think about on both sides, although IMHO it's mostly one side who brags about being armed, has actually been arrested for plots to kidnap & execute policy makers, and continues to spread flagrant lies guaranteed to divide our country & promote violence.
If you disagree with policy, you're going to have to express it somehow. An ad is going to work out the same if you circulate a petition.

FWIW, the tendency to publicized the private locations of public officials - mayors, police officers, Federal officials associated with unpopular policies - is new and disturbing. There are many, many more of these than health officials. If you want to condemn the practice, which you should, condemn it across the board. Don't restrict your sympathy to health officials.
(11-19-2020, 01:02 PM)DocSavage87 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-19-2020, 12:00 PM)teejers1 Wrote: [ -> ]Taking out ads like the one mentioned in the article is not "threatening officials."  Nothing to discuss.  (I agree that actual threats are not discussion-worthy).

I'm sure taking out full-page ads demonizing a health care official wouldn't incite any of the sketchier parts of the "COVID = hoax" folks to take things further.  It's something to think about on both sides, although IMHO it's mostly one side who brags about being armed, has actually been arrested for plots to kidnap & execute policy makers, and continues to spread flagrant lies guaranteed to divide our country & promote violence.

And it's "mostly one side" who publicly shames and/or goes after your livelihood if you disagree with "the way you're supposed to think."  I condemn all kinds of brownshirt tactics . . . do you?
Pretty damn amusing for a conservative to talk about brownshirts while the Republican president and party are supporting an undemocratic coup at this very moment, no matter how farcical it is (the original Nazis were farcical too). But sure, "cancel culture" is the problem!
I get that some people are politically conservative. But the threats are real, and conservatives are not the victims. Conservatives should be standing up against the right wing extremists, as well. The "fascists" are the ones who support fascist ideology, it's that simple, they are not the ones who call out fascism or take to the the streets to deny these fascists the ability to intimidate communities.

Here's another example of the unhinged people who were motivated by absurd conspiracy theories around Covid:

Disturbing new details in alleged plot to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer reveal their Plan B was to takeover the Michigan capitol building with 200 combatants, who would stage a week-long series of televised executions of public officials.

https://abc7chicago.com/disturbing-new-d...r/8079861/
People who advocate overthrowing or paralyzing the elected government by force and/or killing their political opponents are neither conservatives nor liberals. They are violent revolutionaries, and should be dealt with accordingly. Dignifying these people by associating them with any political philosophy is more than they deserve.
They are of the same ilk that would countenance legal shenanigans to overturn the duly elected president. Some are just more cowardly in their convictions but no less dangerous.
(11-19-2020, 03:47 PM)teejers1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-19-2020, 01:02 PM)DocSavage87 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-19-2020, 12:00 PM)teejers1 Wrote: [ -> ]Taking out ads like the one mentioned in the article is not "threatening officials."  Nothing to discuss.  (I agree that actual threats are not discussion-worthy).

I'm sure taking out full-page ads demonizing a health care official wouldn't incite any of the sketchier parts of the "COVID = hoax" folks to take things further.  It's something to think about on both sides, although IMHO it's mostly one side who brags about being armed, has actually been arrested for plots to kidnap & execute policy makers, and continues to spread flagrant lies guaranteed to divide our country & promote violence.

And it's "mostly one side" who publicly shames and/or goes after your livelihood if you disagree with "the way you're supposed to think."  I condemn all kinds of brownshirt tactics . . . do you?

Such complete and utter crap.  You mean public shaming like taking out full page ads on public health officials?  Or when Trump took out a full page ad on innocent minorities and to this day has not admitted he did anything wrong?  I could also roll tons of cancel culture clips from the right.  (Wonder how the Rock feels about MAGA cancel culture after he had the audacity to endorse Biden.)   I think "the way you're supposed to think" means "not be idiots who think conspiracy theories and lies are equivalent to real evidence and data".

Like how you think either of those two are like armed sedition and active undermining of our democracy through disinformation.  I made the mistake of actually hitting the "show post" but from now on I'll keep you on ignore.  Have a nice life.

(11-19-2020, 04:24 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty damn amusing for a conservative to talk about brownshirts while the Republican president and party are supporting an undemocratic coup at this very moment, no matter how farcical it is (the original Nazis were farcical too). But sure, "cancel culture" is the problem!

Time to stick with the ignores, although for some reason quoted ignores get through.  Let's talk COVID-19 and try to avoid politics (as much as we can) lest the fascism apologists inject their two cents.  I think I'm undergoing some mental issues nowadays because of extreme rage at people in this country.  I've already cut out a number of social media outlets because it's so aggravating to read the crap from the other side (which at one point was my party), and it's hard to even keep up with COVID-19 news because politics gets intertwined with necessary policies.  Beginning to think the only way to remain sane for the next 3 months is to unplug entirely.

[Image: duty_calls.png]
(11-19-2020, 05:19 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: [ -> ]They are of the same ilk that would countenance legal shenanigans to overturn the duly elected president. Some are just more cowardly in their convictions but no less dangerous.

I can't agree with you there. It is certainly true there are dangerous politicians who use perfectly legal means to do violence to our freedoms. However, one man's "legal shenanigans" is another man's "protection of due process". I assume you are mostly referring to Trump's attempts to overturn the election results in several states. I say let him. He will undoubtedly fail. That is a good thing. It is better IMHO that there be no possible question about the results. Granted, there are crazies who will not believe it was honest no matter what, but for any "rational" person, removing any question of significant fraud is not a bad thing. We don't need a "stab in the back" legend to grow.

As a side note, Georgia has just certified their election results after a full audit. Trump picked up a few votes, but not near enough to change the result. This audit eliminates any possibility of "widespread fraud".
You think an audit is going to convince a Trump supporter? I have some bridges to sell you.

Why is he undoubtedly going to fail when Republican officials seem to be doing little to stop him, apart from the Georgia SOS? They are shenanigans because they have no basis in fact, and are a sideshow to allow Republican legislatures to appoint Trump electors. A coup by dismantling of democracy is the same as one with rifles.
(11-19-2020, 05:24 PM)DocSavage87 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-19-2020, 03:47 PM)teejers1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-19-2020, 01:02 PM)DocSavage87 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-19-2020, 12:00 PM)teejers1 Wrote: [ -> ]Taking out ads like the one mentioned in the article is not "threatening officials."  Nothing to discuss.  (I agree that actual threats are not discussion-worthy).

I'm sure taking out full-page ads demonizing a health care official wouldn't incite any of the sketchier parts of the "COVID = hoax" folks to take things further.  It's something to think about on both sides, although IMHO it's mostly one side who brags about being armed, has actually been arrested for plots to kidnap & execute policy makers, and continues to spread flagrant lies guaranteed to divide our country & promote violence.

And it's "mostly one side" who publicly shames and/or goes after your livelihood if you disagree with "the way you're supposed to think."  I condemn all kinds of brownshirt tactics . . . do you?

Such complete and utter crap.  You mean public shaming like taking out full page ads on public health officials?  Or when Trump took out a full page ad on innocent minorities and to this day has not admitted he did anything wrong?  I could also roll tons of cancel culture clips from the right.  (Wonder how the Rock feels about MAGA cancel culture after he had the audacity to endorse Biden.)   I think "the way you're supposed to think" means "not be idiots who think conspiracy theories and lies are equivalent to real evidence and data".

Like how you think either of those two are like armed sedition and active undermining of our democracy through disinformation.  I made the mistake of actually hitting the "show post" but from now on I'll keep you on ignore.  Have a nice life.

(11-19-2020, 04:24 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty damn amusing for a conservative to talk about brownshirts while the Republican president and party are supporting an undemocratic coup at this very moment, no matter how farcical it is (the original Nazis were farcical too). But sure, "cancel culture" is the problem!

Time to stick with the ignores, although for some reason quoted ignores get through.  Let's talk COVID-19 and try to avoid politics (as much as we can) lest the fascism apologists inject their two cents.  I think I'm undergoing some mental issues nowadays because of extreme rage at people in this country.  I've already cut out a number of social media outlets because it's so aggravating to read the crap from the other side (which at one point was my party), and it's hard to even keep up with COVID-19 news because politics gets intertwined with necessary policies.  Beginning to think the only way to remain sane for the next 3 months is to unplug entirely.

[Image: duty_calls.png]

Easy, cowboy, no need to your panties in a bunch.  Oops, never mind.  You've unplugged me.  All is well.
Me?  I'll continue to read posts from all on the board . . . even yours.
(11-19-2020, 01:56 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: [ -> ]FWIW, the tendency to publicized the private locations of public officials - mayors, police officers, Federal officials associated with unpopular policies - is new and disturbing. There are many, many more of these than health officials. If you want to condemn the practice, which you should, condemn it across the board. Don't restrict your sympathy to health officials.

Yes, I agree, and is it not true that this increases the general danger of some horrible incidents? As a nation we are suffering a dangerous upsurge of gullible conspiracy believers with guns and flags and the sense of playing to a virtual cheering crowd, and with violence sanctioned by the would-be monarch. This is ripe for violence.

And yes, this is the environment in which we fight Covid. Let's not forget that the Michigan conspiracy followed the president's "liberate Michigan" tweet; and recently we had Atlas suggesting Michigan should "rise up" against Covid measures. We have leaders throwing fuel on flames. Yet another case of "unprecedented" in the US and at the same time as a pandemic.

(11-19-2020, 05:14 PM)Goose Wrote: [ -> ]People who advocate overthrowing or paralyzing the elected government by force and/or killing their political opponents are neither conservatives nor liberals. They are violent revolutionaries, and should be dealt with accordingly. Dignifying these people by associating them with any political philosophy is more than they deserve.

And what do we call people who undermine public faith in elections? What kind of revolutionary is that? And do we not have right now, in this country, a collection of people who do just that? And what do they call themselves?

And, this being the Covid board, I can add that the same ones who are subverting the elections are also opposing public measures to control the raging pandemic. Do we have a label for those ones? How did divisive demagogic stupidity get to be mislabeled conservatism?

I do agree with you, Goose, that although some of these, maybe even mainly of these, self define as conservatives, they are not. They have nothing to do with a George Will or William F. Buckley. The word "conservative," much like "patriot," has been co-opted by a lot of people who have no right to use either one. I'm liberal myself, but I can respect true conservatives and I am sorry to see what the Trump movement has done to the right side of our politics.

(Cue video of a post-election maggot rally and/or an anti-mask protest, in both cases full of American flags and weapons.)
(11-19-2020, 05:58 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: [ -> ]You think an audit is going to convince a Trump supporter? I have some bridges to sell you.
A few, probably. More importantly IMHO is that a few years from now it will be harder to sell the idea that he was somehow "robbed". The battle for hearts and minds will continue, and anything that supports the idea this election was certainly a fair one can help.

Quote:Why is he undoubtedly going to fail when Republican officials seem to be doing little to stop him, apart from the Georgia SOS? They are shenanigans because they have no basis in fact, and are a sideshow to allow Republican legislatures to appoint Trump electors.
In most cases the Republican officials cannot stop him from filing lawsuits, even frivolous ones,. They also do not have to do so if these lawsuits are subsequently dismissed. I will worry only when and if it appears that some State cannot certify it's results. It does not appear that is a danger at the moment. I also have enough  faith in the legal system that I do not fear that approach has any chance of succeeding.

If you want to worry about something, I would suggest you worry about faithless electors. I think Trump has no chance in a court of law. The election results will get certified, as they did in Georgia. However, corrupting electors is a possibility. Even in the 33 states that have punishments, it won't stop the vote from being cast, as I understand it. That worries me a lot more than failure to certify results and a legislature appointing electors.
Quote:A coup by dismantling of democracy is the same as one with rifles.
No, it is not at all. A coup by dismantling democracy can be countered by the people, because there is no force in place to defeat the people. One established by rifles is a lot different, because if the people resist, they are killed. Do you think for one minute that a legislature that was attempting to appoint electors contrary to the election results would survive the attempt? I certainly do not, because even many Trump supporters would regard that as a bridge too far.
Quote:No, it is not at all. A coup by dismantling democracy can be countered by the people, because there is no force in place to defeat the people. One established by rifles is a lot different, because if the people resist, they are killed. Do you think for one minute that a legislature that was attempting to appoint electors contrary to the election results would survive the attempt? I certainly do not, because even many Trump supporters would regard that as a bridge too far.

History disagrees. To take probably the most well known example, Hitler came to power democratically, before assuming total power by the assent of his conservative coalition members. It was all "legal".

The bottom line is there is one party in the US that is either actively participating in, or standing by watching, while their leader attempts to subvert democracy. Anyone with a knowledge of history should be very concerned about the direction the US is going in, near-term and far.

And before someone Godwin Law's me....


(11-19-2020, 06:18 PM)oregontim Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-19-2020, 01:56 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: [ -> ]FWIW, the tendency to publicized the private locations of public officials - mayors, police officers, Federal officials associated with unpopular policies - is new and disturbing. There are many, many more of these than health officials. If you want to condemn the practice, which you should, condemn it across the board. Don't restrict your sympathy to health officials.

Yes, I agree, and is it not true that this increases the general danger of some horrible incidents? As a nation we are suffering a dangerous upsurge of gullible conspiracy believers with guns and flags and the sense of playing to a virtual cheering crowd, and with violence sanctioned by the would-be monarch. This is ripe for violence.

And yes, this is the environment in which we fight Covid. Let's not forget that the Michigan conspiracy followed the president's "liberate Michigan" tweet; and recently we had Atlas suggesting Michigan should "rise up" against Covid measures. We have leaders throwing fuel on flames. Yet another case of "unprecedented" in the US and at the same time as a pandemic.

(11-19-2020, 05:14 PM)Goose Wrote: [ -> ]People who advocate overthrowing or paralyzing the elected government by force and/or killing their political opponents are neither conservatives nor liberals. They are violent revolutionaries, and should be dealt with accordingly. Dignifying these people by associating them with any political philosophy is more than they deserve.

And what do we call people who undermine public faith in elections? What kind of revolutionary is that? And do we not have right now, in this country, a collection of people who do just that? And what do they call themselves?

And, this being the Covid board, I can add that the same ones who are subverting the elections are also opposing public measures to control the raging pandemic. Do we have a label for those ones? How did divisive demagogic stupidity get to be mislabeled conservatism?

I do agree with you, Goose, that although some of these, maybe even mainly of these, self define as conservatives, they are not. They have nothing to do with a George Will or William F. Buckley. The word "conservative," much like "patriot," has been co-opted by a lot of people who have no right to use either one. I'm liberal myself, but I can respect true conservatives and I am sorry to see what the Trump movement has done to the right side of our politics.

(Cue video of a post-election maggot rally and/or an anti-mask protest, in both cases full of American flags and weapons.)

I believe this is the last post in this thread that mentions COVID-19.  Please let's refocus all.

BC
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