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Full Version: Senior guard Daejon Davis enters transfer portal
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(04-18-2021, 09:22 AM)bbm233 Wrote: [ -> ]In Davis' case it may be all Haase's fault, but the circumstances are so different in each case. What I do believe is that guys will put up with a lot more if the team is winning. I bet Davis was pretty unhappy sitting on the bench during a losing streak. He probably felt like if he was playing, the team had a better chance of winning. If he ends up Washington, as is rumored, what's different?
  • Winning? No. The Huskies were awful and will be next year.
  • Academics? Who knows? Washington is a fine school. Daejon leaves Stanford having achieved his undergraduate academic goals.
  • A coach known for player development? Not according to some departing players, who have disparaged Hopkins' ability to get the most out of their skills.
  • Home cooking? Yes!
  • Playing time? Yes! Davis figures he'll see a lot of action since the Huskies have had a major exodus (6 transfers) with only 4 scholarship players returning, including neither of the top 2 point guards.

Given the circumstances (less PT, no history of tourney invites, degree in hand) I am thinking I would make the same decision in Daejon's shoes, regardless of who the coach is.

Is Davis for sure going to UW? Hadn't heard that. If not, I doubt he'd go there. That sounds like an even bigger dumpster fire.

I don't blame Haase 100% for Davis (or Williams or Wills or Ryan) but I do think he bears some of the responsibility.
Judgment of coaches and player transfers...there really aren't any surprises anymore. It's just what happens. 

- The mass exodus at UW cracks me up. All the players and fans blaming everything on Hopkins. The same coach who 2 years ago was back-to-back P12 COY who everyone loved in Seattle. All of a sudden he can't do anything right. But the players (who suck) don't have any accountability!
- Cronin was one bucket away from being Haase-like. Losers of their last 4, including an embarrassing loss to OSU in the P12 tourney. They eek out a win against Mich St or they end the season with a 5 game losing streak, following a 19-12 season last year. I can tell you, no one would have been calling Cronin a great coach. 5 games and a few weeks later, he's the hottest thing going.

Haase needs to win. Plain and simple. All the team bickering and fan criticism goes away when you win. No coach that I know of can "control his team" without winning anymore. Players have too much leverage these days and especially given the opportunities to play professionally overseas, if they don't get playing time they will move on. I don't blame them or the coach. Daejon will take his game to UW (or somewhere) and will play a ton. It will be better for him. 

If you don't have a good season, players are going to transfer. Heck, even if you have a good season, some players will probably transfer. I'm not aware of any coach who keeps all their players anymore. It's become part of the deal.
I agree Haase never should have recruited Ryan’s dad. Big mistake
Once in a while a coach doesn’t make the obvious offer. Might not be the kid but might be the parents
For all we know, the team could have been clicking while Davis/Wills/Williams were out, and once cleared to return, Davis didn't quite earn his way back in.  

At least we're not "Syracuse women's basketball" bad right now...they've had 12 players enter the transfer portal this offseason.
https://sports.yahoo.com/syracuse-womens...57415.html
FWIW, if Wills is going to transfer, too, the deadline for entering the portal is May 1.
(04-23-2021, 12:29 PM)fullmetal Wrote: [ -> ]For all we know, the team could have been clicking while Davis/Wills/Williams were out, and once cleared to return, Davis didn't quite earn his way back in.  

Could be that, also could be he didn't expect to have to "earn" his way back in. It also could be Haase decided to platoon the position to let other guys play and Davis didn't like that. We unfortunately will probably never know "what really happened". Equally unfortunately (IMHO anyway) players feel free to express their discontent publicly. It is perfectly OK to transfer away if you are unsatisfied with the status quo. Trying to do so with class no longer seems to be a priority.
(04-23-2021, 05:14 PM)Goose Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-23-2021, 12:29 PM)fullmetal Wrote: [ -> ]For all we know, the team could have been clicking while Davis/Wills/Williams were out, and once cleared to return, Davis didn't quite earn his way back in.  

Could be that, also could be he didn't expect to have to "earn" his way back in. It also could be Haase decided to platoon the position to let other guys play and Davis didn't like that. We unfortunately will probably never know "what really happened". Equally unfortunately (IMHO anyway) players feel free to express their discontent publicly. It is perfectly OK to transfer away if you are unsatisfied with the status quo. Trying to do so with class no longer seems to be a priority.
The class stuff was only really required when the athletes were almost locked into their university and had no real way to get away.   
Just wait until they can get loads of compensation from their likeness. 

Haase seems to have retention problems.   While each case is different, this is another area where the trend has not been his friend.
(04-23-2021, 06:01 PM)Farm93 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-23-2021, 05:14 PM)Goose Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-23-2021, 12:29 PM)fullmetal Wrote: [ -> ]For all we know, the team could have been clicking while Davis/Wills/Williams were out, and once cleared to return, Davis didn't quite earn his way back in.  


Could be that, also could be he didn't expect to have to "earn" his way back in. It also could be Haase decided to platoon the position to let other guys play and Davis didn't like that. We unfortunately will probably never know "what really happened". Equally unfortunately (IMHO anyway) players feel free to express their discontent publicly. It is perfectly OK to transfer away if you are unsatisfied with the status quo. Trying to do so with class no longer seems to be a priority.

The class stuff was only really required when the athletes were almost locked into their university and had no real way to get away.   

Just wait until they can get loads of compensation from their likeness. 

I don't think behaving with "class" involves worrying about the consequences of not doing so. It is possible to leave without trashing the program you are leaving. It may not matter to the world at large, but it should matter to the player himself. The fact it doesn't is probably part of the problem.
(04-23-2021, 06:01 PM)Farm93 Wrote: [ -> ]Haase seems to have retention problems.   While each case is different, this is another area where the trend has not been his friend.

Almost every school in D1 has some form of retention problem. The transfer portal is an epidemic, and was already so before the freebie year (this year is just insane). 

To back this up, I have actually been keeping track of PAC-12 MBB transfers over the past 4 seasons. Conference schools are averaging roughly 2.5 outbound transfers per year (and this year is way worse). Haase has been tied for or below the median every season. It just happens to be way easier everywhere else to plug those holes immediately.
My guess is most of us on this board are like me, old farts. (62). From different eras, with different mindsets.  Back when we were yutes, college athletes played at one school.  Almost exclusively.  You had the rare transfer.  Emphasis rare.  Then kids could leave “early”, generally after junior year to go to NFL/NBA. Still relatively rare.

Now it’s free agency.  Add that, particularly in hoops, the program that mattered to most recruited high schoolers was not their HS team. It was AAU.  And the point of most high level AAU programs is exposure.  Not team.  Not wins and losses.  

All this leads to a greater “me” emphasis.  Team less important.  Making it that much easier to transfer if you aren’t getting the minutes you feel you deserve, or the system doesn’t show off your skills or if the coach isnt cowtowing to your needs.

It isn’t a “ Haase” issue.  It’s College basketball (and football) in this era.

The open transfer rule is a disaster for Stanford sports.  They will lose  kids.  Getting them, given admissions, will be very difficult. So it’s gotta be quality over quantity.  Brendon Scarlett being Exhibit A.

(04-24-2021, 10:50 AM)SamuelMcF Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-23-2021, 06:01 PM)Farm93 Wrote: [ -> ]Haase seems to have retention problems.   While each case is different, this is another area where the trend has not been his friend.

Almost every school in D1 has some form of retention problem. The transfer portal is an epidemic, and was already so before the freebie year (this year is just insane). 

To back this up, I have actually been keeping track of PAC-12 MBB transfers over the past 4 seasons. Conference schools are averaging roughly 2.5 outbound transfers per year (and this year is way worse). Haase has been tied for or below the median every season. It just happens to be way easier everywhere else to plug those holes immediately.

Isn’t the freebie rule now permanent?
Stanford should be below the median in outbound transfers (ignoring grad transfers) because of the value of the degree.  A player who is stuck on the bench and not getting much playing time can comfort himself in knowing that at the end of his four years he will be leaving with a bachelor’s degree from Stanford.  You might even argue that this is especially important for those stuck on the bench; they are unlikely to be going to the NBA, so the degree has even more value.

BC

Speaking of high school kids, this news is relevant...

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3100...ed-players

I have no objection about a league for kids that don’t want to go to college, but I think having kids enroll in this league instead of playing in high school is a mistake.

BC
(04-24-2021, 12:40 PM)BostonCard Wrote: [ -> ]Stanford should be below the median in outbound transfers (ignoring grad transfers) because of the value of the degree.  A player who is stuck on the bench and not getting much playing time can comfort himself in knowing that at the end of his four years he will be leaving with a bachelor’s degree from Stanford.  You might even argue that this is especially important for those stuck on the bench; they are unlikely to be going to the NBA, so the degree has even more value.

BC

Speaking of high school kids, this news is relevant...

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3100...ed-players

I have no objection about a league for kids that don’t want to go to college, but I think having kids enroll in this league instead of playing in high school is a mistake.

BC

Gosh, how awful for 16 and 17 year olds to be playing sports for free.  I think Bezos is funding this.  That’s reason enough for me to root for failure.

And, btw, what will the kids that don’t go on to the NBA or even higher level European leagues do once their  “Overtime” “career” is over.
(04-24-2021, 11:47 AM)lex24 Wrote: [ -> ]My guess is most of us on this board are like me, old farts. (62). From different eras, with different mindsets.  Back when we were yutes, college athletes played at one school.  Almost exclusively.  You had the rare transfer.  Emphasis rare.  Then kids could leave “early”, generally after junior year to go to NFL/NBA. Still relatively rare.

I agree with this point completely. For some of us that are even a bit older, the players who played both basketball and football entered college with no expectation of playing professionally. Some guys who were really good thought maybe that would possibly happen, but it wasn't a realistic "goal". First of all, pro sports at that time didn't pay nearly as well as they do now. You couldn't make tons of money even if you were real good, and if you just warmed the bench in pro ball you made peanuts. Second of all, there were fewer teams so there were fewer slots available. The players were actually "student athletes". Obviously, the current situation is not like that, and that leads to lots of the issues we are seeing in the modern era. For better or worse (mostly worse IMHO), we on the Cardboard, Stanford Athletics, and the NCAA have to deal with how things are. No obvious good answers.

(04-24-2021, 12:40 PM)BostonCard Wrote: [ -> ]Stanford should be below the median in outbound transfers (ignoring grad transfers) because of the value of the degree.  A player who is stuck on the bench and not getting much playing time can comfort himself in knowing that at the end of his four years he will be leaving with a bachelor’s degree from Stanford.  You might even argue that this is especially important for those stuck on the bench; they are unlikely to be going to the NBA, so the degree has even more value.



BC
You are correct that getting a Stanford degree beats leaving and then later not being good enough/making it to the NBA. The problem is that the athletes involved think that they ARE good enough for the NBA and it is just coaching incompetence holding them back. In many cases, basketball is so important to them that they are making their life decisions based on that and not much else. I don't think that is rational, especially given the number of "can't miss" prospects that have in fact "missed".

I suspect that the players involved would tell you that if you think you can't make it, you won't, and that you need to be "all in" to have a shot. I can't say that they are wrong, but it is a risk I wouldn't recommend taking. Maybe that is why I am not in the NBA? OK, probably the fact I can't play basketball worth a damn has more to do with it .
(04-24-2021, 12:40 PM)BostonCard Wrote: [ -> ]Stanford should be below the median in outbound transfers (ignoring grad transfers) because of the value of the degree.  A player who is stuck on the bench and not getting much playing time can comfort himself in knowing that at the end of his four years he will be leaving with a bachelor’s degree from Stanford.  You might even argue that this is especially important for those stuck on the bench; they are unlikely to be going to the NBA, so the degree has even more value.

So far precisely 1 of Haase's outbound transfers has been a non-grad transfer, so you're spot on. For comparison, 4 of Oregon's portal entrants this year alone are underclassmen...and they didn't even have a coaching change.
(04-24-2021, 12:59 PM)lex24 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-24-2021, 12:40 PM)BostonCard Wrote: [ -> ]Stanford should be below the median in outbound transfers (ignoring grad transfers) because of the value of the degree.  A player who is stuck on the bench and not getting much playing time can comfort himself in knowing that at the end of his four years he will be leaving with a bachelor’s degree from Stanford.  You might even argue that this is especially important for those stuck on the bench; they are unlikely to be going to the NBA, so the degree has even more value.



BC


Speaking of high school kids, this news is relevant...



https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3100...ed-players



I have no objection about a league for kids that don’t want to go to college, but I think having kids enroll in this league instead of playing in high school is a mistake.



BC



Gosh, how awful for 16 and 17 year olds to be playing sports for free.  I think Bezos is funding  this.  That’s reason enough for me to root for failure.



And, btw, what will the kids that don’t go on to the NBA or even higher level European leagues do once their  “Overtime” “career” is over.

Another alternative to college for players is the new Professional Collegiate League - https://thepcleague.com/
Stanford fans will note a familiar name among the executive team. Keith Sparks, the PCL Chief Development Officer, is a 1984 grad and a former Assistant AD at Stanford.

Or high school players could join the Ignite team in the G League. Ignite is specifically for young prospects who are bypassing college. Two top recruits just announced they are bypassing college to play for Ignite.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2941...gue-ignite
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3131...te-georgia
First Triple A Baseball scraps the PCL. Now it's used to ID a new league. Screw that.

Otherwise I'm for free agency. Stanford is going to lose kids, and not just in hoops. Not accepting transfers in Palo Alto will weaken the major mens' sports but that's the way Stanford rolls.

And Lex, if 62 is an old fart what do you call Bobbbbbb and me? Almost dead farts?
(04-24-2021, 12:59 PM)lex24 Wrote: [ -> ]Gosh, how awful for 16 and 17 year olds to be playing sports for free.  I think Bezos is funding  this.  That’s reason enough for me to root for failure.

And, btw, what will the kids that don’t go on to the NBA or even higher level European leagues do once their  “Overtime” “career” is over.

Quote:Overtime raised $80 million in a Series C 
...
Bezos Expeditions, the personal investment firm of the Amazon CEO, is one of the companies tied to this funding round. Global investment firm Blackstone, Morgan Stanley and many NBA stars, including Devin Booker, Trae Young and Klay Thompson, joined the investment round. WNBA star Chiney Ogwumike is also an investor.
...
To date, the Brooklyn-based Overtime says it has raised more than $140 million. In March, the company made headlines when it announced Overtime Elite, a basketball league for 16-to-18-year-olds that allows them to earn at least $100,000 per year.

As of now, players who join are not eligible for collegiate-level play. But if OTE players do not pursue a professional career, OTE will provide an additional $100,000 for college tuition.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/22/jeff-bez...rtime.html
(04-24-2021, 02:28 PM)Phogge Wrote: [ -> ]And Lex, if 62 is an old fart what do you call Bobbbbbb and me? Almost dead farts?

I don't know about Lex, but at 62 I'm not ready to be an old fart yet. You and Bob can keep that title. :->
(04-24-2021, 02:28 PM)Phogge Wrote: [ -> ]And Lex, if 62 is an old fart what do you call Bobbbbbb and me? Almost dead farts?

Call you?  What, are we made of money?  Write a letter instead!  

Cheers,
Pete F.
(04-24-2021, 12:40 PM)BostonCard Wrote: [ -> ]Stanford should be below the median in outbound transfers (ignoring grad transfers) because of the value of the degree.  A player who is stuck on the bench and not getting much playing time can comfort himself in knowing that at the end of his four years he will be leaving with a bachelor’s degree from Stanford.  You might even argue that this is especially important for those stuck on the bench; they are unlikely to be going to the NBA, so the degree has even more value.

BC

Speaking of high school kids, this news is relevant...

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3100...ed-players

I have no objection about a league for kids that don’t want to go to college, but I think having kids enroll in this league instead of playing in high school is a mistake.

BC

Except, they want to play ball.

(04-24-2021, 02:28 PM)Phogge Wrote: [ -> ]First Triple A Baseball scraps the PCL. Now it's used to ID a new league. Screw that.

Otherwise I'm for free agency. Stanford is going to lose kids, and not just in hoops. Not accepting transfers in Palo Alto will weaken the major mens' sports but that's the way Stanford rolls.

And Lex, if 62 is an old fart what do you call Bobbbbbb and me? Almost dead farts?

Vintage.  Like a well aged Cabernet. :)

(04-24-2021, 01:13 PM)Goose Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-24-2021, 11:47 AM)lex24 Wrote: [ -> ]My guess is most of us on this board are like me, old farts. (62). From different eras, with different mindsets.  Back when we were yutes, college athletes played at one school.  Almost exclusively.  You had the rare transfer.  Emphasis rare.  Then kids could leave “early”, generally after junior year to go to NFL/NBA. Still relatively rare.

I agree with this point completely. For some of us that are even a bit older, the players who played both basketball and football entered college with no expectation of playing professionally. Some guys who were really good thought maybe that would possibly happen, but it wasn't a realistic "goal". First of all, pro sports at that time didn't pay nearly as well as they do now. You couldn't make tons of money even if you were real good, and if you just warmed the bench in pro ball you made peanuts. Second of all, there were fewer teams so there were fewer slots available. The players were actually "student athletes". Obviously, the current situation is not like that, and that leads to lots of the issues we are seeing in the modern era. For better or worse (mostly worse IMHO), we on the Cardboard, Stanford Athletics, and the NCAA have to deal with how things are. No obvious good answers.

(04-24-2021, 12:40 PM)BostonCard Wrote: [ -> ]Stanford should be below the median in outbound transfers (ignoring grad transfers) because of the value of the degree.  A player who is stuck on the bench and not getting much playing time can comfort himself in knowing that at the end of his four years he will be leaving with a bachelor’s degree from Stanford.  You might even argue that this is especially important for those stuck on the bench; they are unlikely to be going to the NBA, so the degree has even more value.



BC
You are correct that getting a Stanford degree beats leaving and then later not being good enough/making it to the NBA. The problem is that the athletes involved think that they ARE good enough for the NBA and it is just coaching incompetence holding them back. In many cases, basketball is so important to them that they are making their life decisions based on that and not much else. I don't think that is rational, especially given the number of "can't miss" prospects that have in fact "missed".

I suspect that the players involved would tell you that if you think you can't make it, you won't, and that you need to be "all in" to have a shot. I can't say that they are wrong, but it is a risk I wouldn't recommend taking. Maybe that is why I am not in the NBA? OK, probably the fact I can't play basketball worth a damn has more to do with it .

And it’s not just the NBA.  There are some good pro hoops in Europe.
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