[BostonCard]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...659696002/

It's one thing to have East Asian countries or island countries such as New Zealand do better than the US in fighting COVID, but Senegal?

"You see Senegal moving out on all fronts: following science, acting quickly, working the communication side of the equation, and then thinking about innovation," said Judd Devermont, director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a nonpartisan foreign policy think tank.

But at least the US is ahead of... Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, and Iran.

Shannon Underwood, an immigration lawyer from Seattle who moved to Senegal with her family two years ago, said the government's response has been impressive, if not perfect. Underwood said it's been "bizarre" to watch the U.S. response from afar, adding that she would much rather be living in Dakar. 
"There hasn't been a moment where my family was thinking, 'Oh, we should have evacuated. We always felt being here was the better choice," Underwood said. 
Her Senegalese friends are flabbergasted that Americans are arguing over whether to wear masks and that some are questioning the severity of the virus.

How embarrassing for us, to be beaten by a "s**t-hole" country.

BC

[BostonCard]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...659696002/

It's one thing to have East Asian countries or island countries such as New Zealand do better than the US in fighting COVID, but Senegal?

"You see Senegal moving out on all fronts: following science, acting quickly, working the communication side of the equation, and then thinking about innovation," said Judd Devermont, director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a nonpartisan foreign policy think tank.

But at least the US is ahead of... Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, and Iran.

Shannon Underwood, an immigration lawyer from Seattle who moved to Senegal with her family two years ago, said the government's response has been impressive, if not perfect. Underwood said it's been "bizarre" to watch the U.S. response from afar, adding that she would much rather be living in Dakar. 
"There hasn't been a moment where my family was thinking, 'Oh, we should have evacuated. We always felt being here was the better choice," Underwood said. 
Her Senegalese friends are flabbergasted that Americans are arguing over whether to wear masks and that some are questioning the severity of the virus.

How embarrassing for us, to be beaten by a "s**t-hole" country.

BC

[teejers1]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...659696002/

It's one thing to have East Asian countries or island countries such as New Zealand do better than the US in fighting COVID, but Senegal?

"You see Senegal moving out on all fronts: following science, acting quickly, working the communication side of the equation, and then thinking about innovation," said Judd Devermont, director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a nonpartisan foreign policy think tank.

But at least the US is ahead of... Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, and Iran.

Shannon Underwood, an immigration lawyer from Seattle who moved to Senegal with her family two years ago, said the government's response has been impressive, if not perfect. Underwood said it's been "bizarre" to watch the U.S. response from afar, adding that she would much rather be living in Dakar. 
"There hasn't been a moment where my family was thinking, 'Oh, we should have evacuated. We always felt being here was the better choice," Underwood said. 
Her Senegalese friends are flabbergasted that Americans are arguing over whether to wear masks and that some are questioning the severity of the virus.

How embarrassing for us, to be beaten by a "s**t-hole" country.

BC

We'll see how it all shakes out in the end. I'm pretty sure the US will be in bottom half; but then again, we are who we are.  And we get what we deserve.

[teejers1]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...659696002/

It's one thing to have East Asian countries or island countries such as New Zealand do better than the US in fighting COVID, but Senegal?

"You see Senegal moving out on all fronts: following science, acting quickly, working the communication side of the equation, and then thinking about innovation," said Judd Devermont, director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a nonpartisan foreign policy think tank.

But at least the US is ahead of... Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, and Iran.

Shannon Underwood, an immigration lawyer from Seattle who moved to Senegal with her family two years ago, said the government's response has been impressive, if not perfect. Underwood said it's been "bizarre" to watch the U.S. response from afar, adding that she would much rather be living in Dakar. 
"There hasn't been a moment where my family was thinking, 'Oh, we should have evacuated. We always felt being here was the better choice," Underwood said. 
Her Senegalese friends are flabbergasted that Americans are arguing over whether to wear masks and that some are questioning the severity of the virus.

How embarrassing for us, to be beaten by a "s**t-hole" country.

BC

We'll see how it all shakes out in the end. I'm pretty sure the US will be in bottom half; but then again, we are who we are.  And we get what we deserve.

[JustAnotherFan]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...659696002/

It's one thing to have East Asian countries or island countries such as New Zealand do better than the US in fighting COVID, but Senegal?

"You see Senegal moving out on all fronts: following science, acting quickly, working the communication side of the equation, and then thinking about innovation," said Judd Devermont, director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a nonpartisan foreign policy think tank.

But at least the US is ahead of... Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, and Iran.

Shannon Underwood, an immigration lawyer from Seattle who moved to Senegal with her family two years ago, said the government's response has been impressive, if not perfect. Underwood said it's been "bizarre" to watch the U.S. response from afar, adding that she would much rather be living in Dakar. 
"There hasn't been a moment where my family was thinking, 'Oh, we should have evacuated. We always felt being here was the better choice," Underwood said. 
Her Senegalese friends are flabbergasted that Americans are arguing over whether to wear masks and that some are questioning the severity of the virus.

How embarrassing for us, to be beaten by a "s**t-hole" country.

BC

Well one thing Senegal (and other "s**t-hole" countries) may have going for them is that they take personal responsibility and community seriously. Too bad they can't be all about the american exceptionalism of getting yours while letting others suffer.

[JustAnotherFan]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...659696002/

It's one thing to have East Asian countries or island countries such as New Zealand do better than the US in fighting COVID, but Senegal?

"You see Senegal moving out on all fronts: following science, acting quickly, working the communication side of the equation, and then thinking about innovation," said Judd Devermont, director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a nonpartisan foreign policy think tank.

But at least the US is ahead of... Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, and Iran.

Shannon Underwood, an immigration lawyer from Seattle who moved to Senegal with her family two years ago, said the government's response has been impressive, if not perfect. Underwood said it's been "bizarre" to watch the U.S. response from afar, adding that she would much rather be living in Dakar. 
"There hasn't been a moment where my family was thinking, 'Oh, we should have evacuated. We always felt being here was the better choice," Underwood said. 
Her Senegalese friends are flabbergasted that Americans are arguing over whether to wear masks and that some are questioning the severity of the virus.

How embarrassing for us, to be beaten by a "s**t-hole" country.

BC

Well one thing Senegal (and other "s**t-hole" countries) may have going for them is that they take personal responsibility and community seriously. Too bad they can't be all about the american exceptionalism of getting yours while letting others suffer.

[Mick]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...659696002/

It's one thing to have East Asian countries or island countries such as New Zealand do better than the US in fighting COVID, but Senegal?

"You see Senegal moving out on all fronts: following science, acting quickly, working the communication side of the equation, and then thinking about innovation," said Judd Devermont, director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a nonpartisan foreign policy think tank.

But at least the US is ahead of... Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, and Iran.

Shannon Underwood, an immigration lawyer from Seattle who moved to Senegal with her family two years ago, said the government's response has been impressive, if not perfect. Underwood said it's been "bizarre" to watch the U.S. response from afar, adding that she would much rather be living in Dakar. 
"There hasn't been a moment where my family was thinking, 'Oh, we should have evacuated. We always felt being here was the better choice," Underwood said. 
Her Senegalese friends are flabbergasted that Americans are arguing over whether to wear masks and that some are questioning the severity of the virus.

How embarrassing for us, to be beaten by a "s**t-hole" country.

BC

Well one thing Senegal (and other "s**t-hole" countries) may have going for them is that they take personal responsibility and community seriously. Too bad they can't be all about the american exceptionalism of getting yours while letting others suffer.

I think you have a perfect storm in America.  All the things you mention...lack of personal responsibility, not taking community seriously, getting yours while letting others suffer; coupled with a few other conditions, including:

- A prevalence of comorbidities not seen in any other country; e.g., rich country problems like diabetes, high blood pressure, heart failure, etc.
- A view of individual taking precedence over the group.  We're the only country that reveres cowboys; other countries use the term as a pejorative.
- Ironically, better late-life medical support than most other countries.  We have an old, sick, fat populace.  Not good during COVID-19.
- Open borders.  COVID-19 didn't start here.
- Bad, bad, awful president and other politicians who mucked it up from day one.  Which reflects the prior administration's poor performance during the previous pandemic which infected 60 million people, to which their own medical leader stated that they were just lucky that the mortality rates weren't as high.

Yes, we will get what we deserve.
-

[Mick]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...659696002/

It's one thing to have East Asian countries or island countries such as New Zealand do better than the US in fighting COVID, but Senegal?

"You see Senegal moving out on all fronts: following science, acting quickly, working the communication side of the equation, and then thinking about innovation," said Judd Devermont, director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a nonpartisan foreign policy think tank.

But at least the US is ahead of... Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, and Iran.

Shannon Underwood, an immigration lawyer from Seattle who moved to Senegal with her family two years ago, said the government's response has been impressive, if not perfect. Underwood said it's been "bizarre" to watch the U.S. response from afar, adding that she would much rather be living in Dakar. 
"There hasn't been a moment where my family was thinking, 'Oh, we should have evacuated. We always felt being here was the better choice," Underwood said. 
Her Senegalese friends are flabbergasted that Americans are arguing over whether to wear masks and that some are questioning the severity of the virus.

How embarrassing for us, to be beaten by a "s**t-hole" country.

BC

Well one thing Senegal (and other "s**t-hole" countries) may have going for them is that they take personal responsibility and community seriously. Too bad they can't be all about the american exceptionalism of getting yours while letting others suffer.

I think you have a perfect storm in America.  All the things you mention...lack of personal responsibility, not taking community seriously, getting yours while letting others suffer; coupled with a few other conditions, including:

- A prevalence of comorbidities not seen in any other country; e.g., rich country problems like diabetes, high blood pressure, heart failure, etc.
- A view of individual taking precedence over the group.  We're the only country that reveres cowboys; other countries use the term as a pejorative.
- Ironically, better late-life medical support than most other countries.  We have an old, sick, fat populace.  Not good during COVID-19.
- Open borders.  COVID-19 didn't start here.
- Bad, bad, awful president and other politicians who mucked it up from day one.  Which reflects the prior administration's poor performance during the previous pandemic which infected 60 million people, to which their own medical leader stated that they were just lucky that the mortality rates weren't as high.

Yes, we will get what we deserve.
-

[lex24]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...659696002/

It's one thing to have East Asian countries or island countries such as New Zealand do better than the US in fighting COVID, but Senegal?

"You see Senegal moving out on all fronts: following science, acting quickly, working the communication side of the equation, and then thinking about innovation," said Judd Devermont, director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a nonpartisan foreign policy think tank.

But at least the US is ahead of... Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, and Iran.

Shannon Underwood, an immigration lawyer from Seattle who moved to Senegal with her family two years ago, said the government's response has been impressive, if not perfect. Underwood said it's been "bizarre" to watch the U.S. response from afar, adding that she would much rather be living in Dakar. 
"There hasn't been a moment where my family was thinking, 'Oh, we should have evacuated. We always felt being here was the better choice," Underwood said. 
Her Senegalese friends are flabbergasted that Americans are arguing over whether to wear masks and that some are questioning the severity of the virus.

How embarrassing for us, to be beaten by a "s**t-hole" country.

BC

Well one thing Senegal (and other "s**t-hole" countries) may have going for them is that they take personal responsibility and community seriously. Too bad they can't be all about the american exceptionalism of getting yours while letting others suffer.

I think you have a perfect storm in America.  All the things you mention...lack of personal responsibility, not taking community seriously, getting yours while letting others suffer; coupled with a few other conditions, including:

- A prevalence of comorbidities not seen in any other country; e.g., rich country problems like diabetes, high blood pressure, heart failure, etc.
- A view of individual taking precedence over the group.  We're the only country that reveres cowboys; other countries use the term as a pejorative.
- Ironically, better late-life medical support than most other countries.  We have an old, sick, fat populace.  Not good during COVID-19.
- Open borders.  COVID-19 didn't start here.
- Bad, bad, awful president and other politicians who mucked it up from day one.  Which reflects the prior administration's poor performance during the previous pandemic which infected 60 million people, to which their own medical leader stated that they were just lucky that the mortality rates weren't as high.

Yes, we will get what we deserve.
-

Actually Cowboy was used as a pejorative back in the day.  And still is at times.

[lex24]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...659696002/

It's one thing to have East Asian countries or island countries such as New Zealand do better than the US in fighting COVID, but Senegal?

"You see Senegal moving out on all fronts: following science, acting quickly, working the communication side of the equation, and then thinking about innovation," said Judd Devermont, director of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a nonpartisan foreign policy think tank.

But at least the US is ahead of... Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, and Iran.

Shannon Underwood, an immigration lawyer from Seattle who moved to Senegal with her family two years ago, said the government's response has been impressive, if not perfect. Underwood said it's been "bizarre" to watch the U.S. response from afar, adding that she would much rather be living in Dakar. 
"There hasn't been a moment where my family was thinking, 'Oh, we should have evacuated. We always felt being here was the better choice," Underwood said. 
Her Senegalese friends are flabbergasted that Americans are arguing over whether to wear masks and that some are questioning the severity of the virus.

How embarrassing for us, to be beaten by a "s**t-hole" country.

BC

Well one thing Senegal (and other "s**t-hole" countries) may have going for them is that they take personal responsibility and community seriously. Too bad they can't be all about the american exceptionalism of getting yours while letting others suffer.

I think you have a perfect storm in America.  All the things you mention...lack of personal responsibility, not taking community seriously, getting yours while letting others suffer; coupled with a few other conditions, including:

- A prevalence of comorbidities not seen in any other country; e.g., rich country problems like diabetes, high blood pressure, heart failure, etc.
- A view of individual taking precedence over the group.  We're the only country that reveres cowboys; other countries use the term as a pejorative.
- Ironically, better late-life medical support than most other countries.  We have an old, sick, fat populace.  Not good during COVID-19.
- Open borders.  COVID-19 didn't start here.
- Bad, bad, awful president and other politicians who mucked it up from day one.  Which reflects the prior administration's poor performance during the previous pandemic which infected 60 million people, to which their own medical leader stated that they were just lucky that the mortality rates weren't as high.

Yes, we will get what we deserve.
-

Actually Cowboy was used as a pejorative back in the day.  And still is at times.

[Farm93]

We'll see how it all shakes out in the end. I'm pretty sure the US will be in bottom half; but then again, we are who we are.  And we get what we deserve.

At this point I hope we finish in the bottom half.   If countries representing ~50% of the population or if 50% of the countries have more fatalities per capita that'd be an epic catastrophe in 2021 for the globe.

It would require the upcoming waves to be massive killers.   It would likely require all of the vaccine work around the world to prove ineffective, at least for another year or two.   And, the one that is really hard to believe, the USA would need to halt its spread without other countries utilizing similar techniques with their populations.

So I think the only real way this thing gets to a place where the USA's numbers fall close to the median would be for humanity to just accept COVID-19 will keep killing while medical innovations slowly bring expensive therapeutics that, because of their cost, only reduce the fatality rates in very wealthy nations.

Can't hope for that honestly since that type of inequality in humanity tends to inspire military wars, trade conflicts and even terrorism.

So I will hope the USA remains in the top 20 because the alternative would be a set of global disasters that'd I would hope we can avoid.

[Farm93]

We'll see how it all shakes out in the end. I'm pretty sure the US will be in bottom half; but then again, we are who we are.  And we get what we deserve.

At this point I hope we finish in the bottom half.   If countries representing ~50% of the population or if 50% of the countries have more fatalities per capita that'd be an epic catastrophe in 2021 for the globe.

It would require the upcoming waves to be massive killers.   It would likely require all of the vaccine work around the world to prove ineffective, at least for another year or two.   And, the one that is really hard to believe, the USA would need to halt its spread without other countries utilizing similar techniques with their populations.

So I think the only real way this thing gets to a place where the USA's numbers fall close to the median would be for humanity to just accept COVID-19 will keep killing while medical innovations slowly bring expensive therapeutics that, because of their cost, only reduce the fatality rates in very wealthy nations.

Can't hope for that honestly since that type of inequality in humanity tends to inspire military wars, trade conflicts and even terrorism.

So I will hope the USA remains in the top 20 because the alternative would be a set of global disasters that'd I would hope we can avoid.

[OutsiderFan]

It seems to me like the reason a country like Senegal is doing so well, following science all the way, is pretty simple.

It and other poor countries can't afford to be ravaged by an outbreak. They have no margin for error. A "rich" and spoiled, powerful country like the United States can screw up the pandemic and still go on, even with a vast number of people killed and sickened.

[OutsiderFan]

It seems to me like the reason a country like Senegal is doing so well, following science all the way, is pretty simple.

It and other poor countries can't afford to be ravaged by an outbreak. They have no margin for error. A "rich" and spoiled, powerful country like the United States can screw up the pandemic and still go on, even with a vast number of people killed and sickened.

[Genuine Realist]

It seems to me like the reason a country like Senegal is doing so well, following science all the way, is pretty simple.

It and other poor countries can't afford to be ravaged by an outbreak. They have no margin for error. A "rich" and spoiled, powerful country like the United States can screw up the pandemic and still go on, even with a vast number of people killed and sickened.

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

Translating, it probably can't be too much different than it is, although the personality of the President hasn't been helpful. And I would still rather live here than in Senegal.

[Genuine Realist]

It seems to me like the reason a country like Senegal is doing so well, following science all the way, is pretty simple.

It and other poor countries can't afford to be ravaged by an outbreak. They have no margin for error. A "rich" and spoiled, powerful country like the United States can screw up the pandemic and still go on, even with a vast number of people killed and sickened.

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

Translating, it probably can't be too much different than it is, although the personality of the President hasn't been helpful. And I would still rather live here than in Senegal.

[Farm93]

It seems to me like the reason a country like Senegal is doing so well, following science all the way, is pretty simple.

It and other poor countries can't afford to be ravaged by an outbreak. They have no margin for error. A "rich" and spoiled, powerful country like the United States can screw up the pandemic and still go on, even with a vast number of people killed and sickened.

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

Translating, it probably can't be too much different than it is, although the personality of the President hasn't been helpful. And I would still rather live here than in Senegal.

Sure for Senegal, but I would rather spend the next 3-4 months in New Zealand or Australia, if I could pull it off.

I have great envy for those that might get the chance to spend the next few months in New Zealand, Australia, Singapore or other similar locales that have effective government policies against COVID and toasty climates unfavorable to corona virus spread.

But flip it around.

How many people from any other G8 nation world would visit the USA in the next 90-120 days?   And I realize that is a hypothetical since most of the governments have strict travel bans related to visiting the USA right now.

[Farm93]

It seems to me like the reason a country like Senegal is doing so well, following science all the way, is pretty simple.

It and other poor countries can't afford to be ravaged by an outbreak. They have no margin for error. A "rich" and spoiled, powerful country like the United States can screw up the pandemic and still go on, even with a vast number of people killed and sickened.

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

Translating, it probably can't be too much different than it is, although the personality of the President hasn't been helpful. And I would still rather live here than in Senegal.

Sure for Senegal, but I would rather spend the next 3-4 months in New Zealand or Australia, if I could pull it off.

I have great envy for those that might get the chance to spend the next few months in New Zealand, Australia, Singapore or other similar locales that have effective government policies against COVID and toasty climates unfavorable to corona virus spread.

But flip it around.

How many people from any other G8 nation world would visit the USA in the next 90-120 days?   And I realize that is a hypothetical since most of the governments have strict travel bans related to visiting the USA right now.

[teejers1]

It seems to me like the reason a country like Senegal is doing so well, following science all the way, is pretty simple.

It and other poor countries can't afford to be ravaged by an outbreak. They have no margin for error. A "rich" and spoiled, powerful country like the United States can screw up the pandemic and still go on, even with a vast number of people killed and sickened.

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

Translating, it probably can't be too much different than it is, although the personality of the President hasn't been helpful. And I would still rather live here than in Senegal.

Sure for Senegal, but I would rather spend the next 3-4 months in New Zealand or Australia, if I could pull it off.

I have great envy for those that might get the chance to spend the next few months in New Zealand, Australia, Singapore or other similar locales that have effective government policies against COVID and toasty climates unfavorable to corona virus spread.

But flip it around.

How many people from any other G8 nation world would visit the USA in the next 90-120 days?   And I realize that is a hypothetical since most of the governments have strict travel bans related to visiting the USA right now.

Honestly, who really cares?

If you want to talk about living in another country permanently, okay (though that would probably violate the enshrined Terry Rule - unless said decision was motivated by Covid response, which is pretty far-fetched).  But on that point, how can any of us leave out China?  
They have done an exemplary job on the Covid front.  The world would be a much better place to live in if all governments were like mainland China's government; and all populations were as responsible and obedient as the folks in China.

[teejers1]

It seems to me like the reason a country like Senegal is doing so well, following science all the way, is pretty simple.

It and other poor countries can't afford to be ravaged by an outbreak. They have no margin for error. A "rich" and spoiled, powerful country like the United States can screw up the pandemic and still go on, even with a vast number of people killed and sickened.

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

Translating, it probably can't be too much different than it is, although the personality of the President hasn't been helpful. And I would still rather live here than in Senegal.

Sure for Senegal, but I would rather spend the next 3-4 months in New Zealand or Australia, if I could pull it off.

I have great envy for those that might get the chance to spend the next few months in New Zealand, Australia, Singapore or other similar locales that have effective government policies against COVID and toasty climates unfavorable to corona virus spread.

But flip it around.

How many people from any other G8 nation world would visit the USA in the next 90-120 days?   And I realize that is a hypothetical since most of the governments have strict travel bans related to visiting the USA right now.

Honestly, who really cares?

If you want to talk about living in another country permanently, okay (though that would probably violate the enshrined Terry Rule - unless said decision was motivated by Covid response, which is pretty far-fetched).  But on that point, how can any of us leave out China?  
They have done an exemplary job on the Covid front.  The world would be a much better place to live in if all governments were like mainland China's government; and all populations were as responsible and obedient as the folks in China.

[oldalum]

Well one thing Senegal (and other "s**t-hole" countries) may have going for them is that they take personal responsibility and community seriously. Too bad they can't be all about the american exceptionalism of getting yours while letting others suffer.

I have at least a flicker of optimism that we as a country are capable of learning from experience. Except for the military and some other scattered denizens, we're soft mainly because we've had it easy. I would not be surprised if we came out of this pandemic with some greater sense of communitarianism, especially if the first year of what I expect to be a Biden presidency is not torn with even greater partisan controversy. He's obviously not going to please everyone, but I hope his promises of healing the country are realized to even a slight extent. I think he's going to win over some majority of the country if he manifestly tries to govern in a non-divisive fashion. But maybe I'm even more of a fool in my old age.

[oldalum]

Well one thing Senegal (and other "s**t-hole" countries) may have going for them is that they take personal responsibility and community seriously. Too bad they can't be all about the american exceptionalism of getting yours while letting others suffer.

I have at least a flicker of optimism that we as a country are capable of learning from experience. Except for the military and some other scattered denizens, we're soft mainly because we've had it easy. I would not be surprised if we came out of this pandemic with some greater sense of communitarianism, especially if the first year of what I expect to be a Biden presidency is not torn with even greater partisan controversy. He's obviously not going to please everyone, but I hope his promises of healing the country are realized to even a slight extent. I think he's going to win over some majority of the country if he manifestly tries to govern in a non-divisive fashion. But maybe I'm even more of a fool in my old age.

[BostonCard]

I have at least a flicker of optimism that we as a country are capable of learning from experience. Except for the military and some other scattered denizens, we're soft mainly because we've had it easy. I would not be surprised if we came out of this pandemic with some greater sense of communitarianism, especially if the first year of what I expect to be a Biden presidency is not torn with even greater partisan controversy. He's obviously not going to please everyone, but I hope his promises of healing the country are realized to even a slight extent. I think he's going to win over some majority of the country if he manifestly tries to govern in a non-divisive fashion. But maybe I'm even more of a fool in my old age.

I had hoped that this pandemic would be a great unifier.  Alas, that did not happen (and while some blame does fall on the President, not all of it does).

If Biden wins (likely, but far from certain), I think you are overly optimistic that it will not be torn apart by partisanship.  Remember when the Great Financial Crisis brought us all together during the Obama administration?

BC

[BostonCard]

I have at least a flicker of optimism that we as a country are capable of learning from experience. Except for the military and some other scattered denizens, we're soft mainly because we've had it easy. I would not be surprised if we came out of this pandemic with some greater sense of communitarianism, especially if the first year of what I expect to be a Biden presidency is not torn with even greater partisan controversy. He's obviously not going to please everyone, but I hope his promises of healing the country are realized to even a slight extent. I think he's going to win over some majority of the country if he manifestly tries to govern in a non-divisive fashion. But maybe I'm even more of a fool in my old age.

I had hoped that this pandemic would be a great unifier.  Alas, that did not happen (and while some blame does fall on the President, not all of it does).

If Biden wins (likely, but far from certain), I think you are overly optimistic that it will not be torn apart by partisanship.  Remember when the Great Financial Crisis brought us all together during the Obama administration?

BC

[oldalum]

If Biden wins (likely, but far from certain), I think you are overly optimistic that it will not be torn apart by partisanship.  Remember when the Great Financial Crisis brought us all together during the Obama administration?

Alas, my short-term memory has been the first to go.  :)

[oldalum]

If Biden wins (likely, but far from certain), I think you are overly optimistic that it will not be torn apart by partisanship.  Remember when the Great Financial Crisis brought us all together during the Obama administration?

Alas, my short-term memory has been the first to go.  :)

[Genuine Realist]

I have at least a flicker of optimism that we as a country are capable of learning from experience. Except for the military and some other scattered denizens, we're soft mainly because we've had it easy. I would not be surprised if we came out of this pandemic with some greater sense of communitarianism, especially if the first year of what I expect to be a Biden presidency is not torn with even greater partisan controversy. He's obviously not going to please everyone, but I hope his promises of healing the country are realized to even a slight extent. I think he's going to win over some majority of the country if he manifestly tries to govern in a non-divisive fashion. But maybe I'm even more of a fool in my old age.

I had hoped that this pandemic would be a great unifier.  Alas, that did not happen (and while some blame does fall on the President, not all of it does).

If Biden wins (likely, but far from certain), I think you are overly optimistic that it will not be torn apart by partisanship.  Remember when the Great Financial Crisis brought us all together during the Obama administration?

BC

I am hopeful that moderates of both parties will be able to make their voices heard with more confidence when the President who deliberately excites rabid partisanship is gone.

The financial crisis of 2007-9 is not a good analogy. In the spring of 2009, Obama deliberately ignored the great unifying issue, deferred action on reform, and instead pursued a highly contentious plan of reform of medical care. You will recall my vehement expressions of dismay at the time and the bitter epithet I coined for him.

An issue or crisis will not a unify a nation .  . .  unless you actually use it as a unifying tactic. As different as their personalities are, neither Obama nor Trump did so. Biden may - hopefully  will - do better.

[Genuine Realist]

I have at least a flicker of optimism that we as a country are capable of learning from experience. Except for the military and some other scattered denizens, we're soft mainly because we've had it easy. I would not be surprised if we came out of this pandemic with some greater sense of communitarianism, especially if the first year of what I expect to be a Biden presidency is not torn with even greater partisan controversy. He's obviously not going to please everyone, but I hope his promises of healing the country are realized to even a slight extent. I think he's going to win over some majority of the country if he manifestly tries to govern in a non-divisive fashion. But maybe I'm even more of a fool in my old age.

I had hoped that this pandemic would be a great unifier.  Alas, that did not happen (and while some blame does fall on the President, not all of it does).

If Biden wins (likely, but far from certain), I think you are overly optimistic that it will not be torn apart by partisanship.  Remember when the Great Financial Crisis brought us all together during the Obama administration?

BC

I am hopeful that moderates of both parties will be able to make their voices heard with more confidence when the President who deliberately excites rabid partisanship is gone.

The financial crisis of 2007-9 is not a good analogy. In the spring of 2009, Obama deliberately ignored the great unifying issue, deferred action on reform, and instead pursued a highly contentious plan of reform of medical care. You will recall my vehement expressions of dismay at the time and the bitter epithet I coined for him.

An issue or crisis will not a unify a nation .  . .  unless you actually use it as a unifying tactic. As different as their personalities are, neither Obama nor Trump did so. Biden may - hopefully  will - do better.

[Mick]

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

GR, you can keep writing this (as do I), but I don't think it's going to make a dent among the TDS/Orange Man Bad crowd who firmly believe that if only there were a different President, then Americans would be magically compliant, stop eating junk food, stop smoking, start working out, would lose weight, stop venerating the individual and start giving a damn about each other.  And the seas would recede.  Or so I'm told.

[Mick]

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

GR, you can keep writing this (as do I), but I don't think it's going to make a dent among the TDS/Orange Man Bad crowd who firmly believe that if only there were a different President, then Americans would be magically compliant, stop eating junk food, stop smoking, start working out, would lose weight, stop venerating the individual and start giving a damn about each other.  And the seas would recede.  Or so I'm told.

[DocSavage87]

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

GR, you can keep writing this (as do I), but I don't think it's going to make a dent among the TDS/Orange Man Bad crowd who firmly believe that if only there were a different President, then Americans would be magically compliant, stop eating junk food, stop smoking, start working out, would lose weight, stop venerating the individual and start giving a damn about each other.  And the seas would recede.  Or so I'm told.

I've been told by others (favorite tactic of the Idiot In Chief) that straw men arguments are the last resort of those who want to see the other side in the worst possible light.  Maybe I should believe that MAGA = QAnon and/or white supremacists.  You look at twitter and you see ignorant twits (COVID is the flu, every doctor is for lockdown, Trump knows more than Fauci on COVID-19) apply TDS/Orange Man Bad labels to people who correctly observe the complete idiocy of this Administrations handling of this pandemic, and literally denying that we are getting worse because "more tests equal more cases" while ignoring elevated positive rates and hospitalization. To think there aren't significant consequences of how this Administration has literally fought against mitigation strategies is the true Trump Derangement Syndrome, i.e., observing his consequences and actions in a completely ridiculous and frankly ignorant way.

But I guess CEOs have no effect on companies, QBs have no impact on football teams, and Generals have no hand in the strategies the military takes. It's just about the people underneath and their own predispositions. I've been told I too can use the same argument strategy.

[DocSavage87]

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

GR, you can keep writing this (as do I), but I don't think it's going to make a dent among the TDS/Orange Man Bad crowd who firmly believe that if only there were a different President, then Americans would be magically compliant, stop eating junk food, stop smoking, start working out, would lose weight, stop venerating the individual and start giving a damn about each other.  And the seas would recede.  Or so I'm told.

I've been told by others (favorite tactic of the Idiot In Chief) that straw men arguments are the last resort of those who want to see the other side in the worst possible light.  Maybe I should believe that MAGA = QAnon and/or white supremacists.  You look at twitter and you see ignorant twits (COVID is the flu, every doctor is for lockdown, Trump knows more than Fauci on COVID-19) apply TDS/Orange Man Bad labels to people who correctly observe the complete idiocy of this Administrations handling of this pandemic, and literally denying that we are getting worse because "more tests equal more cases" while ignoring elevated positive rates and hospitalization. To think there aren't significant consequences of how this Administration has literally fought against mitigation strategies is the true Trump Derangement Syndrome, i.e., observing his consequences and actions in a completely ridiculous and frankly ignorant way.

But I guess CEOs have no effect on companies, QBs have no impact on football teams, and Generals have no hand in the strategies the military takes. It's just about the people underneath and their own predispositions. I've been told I too can use the same argument strategy.

[Farm93]

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

GR, you can keep writing this (as do I), but I don't think it's going to make a dent among the TDS/Orange Man Bad crowd who firmly believe that if only there were a different President, then Americans would be magically compliant, stop eating junk food, stop smoking, start working out, would lose weight, stop venerating the individual and start giving a damn about each other.  And the seas would recede.  Or so I'm told.

Heee, heeee
Mick, have you ever been to Australia?
Australians are at least as libertarian as Americans.   They have, let's just say, very questionable dietary traditions.   
And yet they are taking prudent government backed scientific steps on COVID (and climate change).
Seas won't recede for 50 years even if we get our act together now. 
COVID will be a major killer for at least the next 4 months.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't do the right things.
People will die in cars tomorrow doesn't mean the USA should just eliminate seat belt laws

With a government based on science we can alter the rate of acceleration of the problem(s).
That's all, I am looking for at this point.   

I don't need a POTUS to solve all problems, I just need a POTUS that doesn't actively make them worse.

For example, - CNN has done some research into Trump's recent MAGA rallies, and shocker, shocker they are highly correlated with rapid increases in COVID cases in those very counties just days later.

POTUS46, POTUS47 & POTUS48 likely won't solve a lot of the nation's problems, but I do expect a POTUS to not actively make problems worse.   Or at a minimum I don't expect them to know better paths and still select a path that is definitely worse for citizens but potentially better for himself....or herself.  ;) 

Very low bar that I never thought I would need to outline.   POTUS45 doesn't hit that bar.

Though I am encouraged by my OC world right now.   I have never seen so many ads and fliers that just say...he/she took a picture with Trump once in their life, therefore vote for the other candidate.   And in many cases that other candidate is leading in the polls...here in the OC.   

That's crazy, but then again that's Trump.

[Farm93]

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

GR, you can keep writing this (as do I), but I don't think it's going to make a dent among the TDS/Orange Man Bad crowd who firmly believe that if only there were a different President, then Americans would be magically compliant, stop eating junk food, stop smoking, start working out, would lose weight, stop venerating the individual and start giving a damn about each other.  And the seas would recede.  Or so I'm told.

Heee, heeee
Mick, have you ever been to Australia?
Australians are at least as libertarian as Americans.   They have, let's just say, very questionable dietary traditions.   
And yet they are taking prudent government backed scientific steps on COVID (and climate change).
Seas won't recede for 50 years even if we get our act together now. 
COVID will be a major killer for at least the next 4 months.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't do the right things.
People will die in cars tomorrow doesn't mean the USA should just eliminate seat belt laws

With a government based on science we can alter the rate of acceleration of the problem(s).
That's all, I am looking for at this point.   

I don't need a POTUS to solve all problems, I just need a POTUS that doesn't actively make them worse.

For example, - CNN has done some research into Trump's recent MAGA rallies, and shocker, shocker they are highly correlated with rapid increases in COVID cases in those very counties just days later.

POTUS46, POTUS47 & POTUS48 likely won't solve a lot of the nation's problems, but I do expect a POTUS to not actively make problems worse.   Or at a minimum I don't expect them to know better paths and still select a path that is definitely worse for citizens but potentially better for himself....or herself.  ;) 

Very low bar that I never thought I would need to outline.   POTUS45 doesn't hit that bar.

Though I am encouraged by my OC world right now.   I have never seen so many ads and fliers that just say...he/she took a picture with Trump once in their life, therefore vote for the other candidate.   And in many cases that other candidate is leading in the polls...here in the OC.   

That's crazy, but then again that's Trump.

[Genuine Realist]

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

GR, you can keep writing this (as do I), but I don't think it's going to make a dent among the TDS/Orange Man Bad crowd who firmly believe that if only there were a different President, then Americans would be magically compliant, stop eating junk food, stop smoking, start working out, would lose weight, stop venerating the individual and start giving a damn about each other.  And the seas would recede.  Or so I'm told.

Heee, heeee
Mick, have you ever been to Australia?
Australians are at least as libertarian as Americans.   They have, let's just say, very questionable dietary traditions.   
And yet they are taking prudent government backed scientific steps on COVID (and climate change).
Seas won't recede for 50 years even if we get our act together now. 
COVID will be a major killer for at least the next 4 months.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't do the right things.
People will die in cars tomorrow doesn't mean the USA should just eliminate seat belt laws

With a government based on science we can alter the rate of acceleration of the problem(s).
That's all, I am looking for at this point.   

I don't need a POTUS to solve all problems, I just need a POTUS that doesn't actively make them worse.

For example, - CNN has done some research into Trump's recent MAGA rallies, and shocker, shocker they are highly correlated with rapid increases in COVID cases in those very counties just days later.

POTUS46, POTUS47 & POTUS48 likely won't solve a lot of the nation's problems, but I do expect a POTUS to not actively make problems worse.   Or at a minimum I don't expect them to know better paths and still select a path that is definitely worse for citizens but potentially better for himself....or herself.  ;) 

Very low bar that I never thought I would need to outline.   POTUS45 doesn't hit that bar.

Though I am encouraged by my OC world right now.   I have never seen so many ads and fliers that just say...he/she took a picture with Trump once in their life, therefore vote for the other candidate.   And in many cases that other candidate is leading in the polls...here in the OC.   

That's crazy, but then again that's Trump.

TDS takes the form of believing that all things Covid lead back to Trump, which is not the case. My own thought is that his actions since March have been irresponsible in the extreme. However, there have been various news accounts and opinions that some magic bullet existed in the December-January time frame that, if fired, might have spared us all this. The fact that no nation in the world seems to have found it doesn't seem to mean anything. 

There's also the American anti-exceptionalism that seems to have become the fashionable norm in upper class circles.. I mentioned this as an anthropological curiosity. (The curious phenomenon of how our most privileged and annointed citizens have emerged from elite institutions with undifferentiated contempt for the institutions that produced them, is one for future generations to resolve. In the meantime, they can continue to express their resentments on the Internet, the gift of the United States Department of Defense to the world.)

The result are assessments made much too glibly and quickly, and too often reflecting topical political sentiments.

[Genuine Realist]

My own thought is that all of the attributes of the country we value - its strong anti-authoritarian streak, its cultural and ethnic diversity (this is the most pluralistic nation in the world) - all go in dead reverse when we are faced with a phenomenon in which compliance with established authority and obedience to social dictates is required.

GR, you can keep writing this (as do I), but I don't think it's going to make a dent among the TDS/Orange Man Bad crowd who firmly believe that if only there were a different President, then Americans would be magically compliant, stop eating junk food, stop smoking, start working out, would lose weight, stop venerating the individual and start giving a damn about each other.  And the seas would recede.  Or so I'm told.

Heee, heeee
Mick, have you ever been to Australia?
Australians are at least as libertarian as Americans.   They have, let's just say, very questionable dietary traditions.   
And yet they are taking prudent government backed scientific steps on COVID (and climate change).
Seas won't recede for 50 years even if we get our act together now. 
COVID will be a major killer for at least the next 4 months.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't do the right things.
People will die in cars tomorrow doesn't mean the USA should just eliminate seat belt laws

With a government based on science we can alter the rate of acceleration of the problem(s).
That's all, I am looking for at this point.   

I don't need a POTUS to solve all problems, I just need a POTUS that doesn't actively make them worse.

For example, - CNN has done some research into Trump's recent MAGA rallies, and shocker, shocker they are highly correlated with rapid increases in COVID cases in those very counties just days later.

POTUS46, POTUS47 & POTUS48 likely won't solve a lot of the nation's problems, but I do expect a POTUS to not actively make problems worse.   Or at a minimum I don't expect them to know better paths and still select a path that is definitely worse for citizens but potentially better for himself....or herself.  ;) 

Very low bar that I never thought I would need to outline.   POTUS45 doesn't hit that bar.

Though I am encouraged by my OC world right now.   I have never seen so many ads and fliers that just say...he/she took a picture with Trump once in their life, therefore vote for the other candidate.   And in many cases that other candidate is leading in the polls...here in the OC.   

That's crazy, but then again that's Trump.

TDS takes the form of believing that all things Covid lead back to Trump, which is not the case. My own thought is that his actions since March have been irresponsible in the extreme. However, there have been various news accounts and opinions that some magic bullet existed in the December-January time frame that, if fired, might have spared us all this. The fact that no nation in the world seems to have found it doesn't seem to mean anything. 

There's also the American anti-exceptionalism that seems to have become the fashionable norm in upper class circles.. I mentioned this as an anthropological curiosity. (The curious phenomenon of how our most privileged and annointed citizens have emerged from elite institutions with undifferentiated contempt for the institutions that produced them, is one for future generations to resolve. In the meantime, they can continue to express their resentments on the Internet, the gift of the United States Department of Defense to the world.)

The result are assessments made much too glibly and quickly, and too often reflecting topical political sentiments.

[oregontim]

OK I guess this means I’m a member of the “Orange Man Bad” crowd, but DocSavage, and Farm93, thanks for insisting on reason and logic here. American exceptionalism indeed.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/aslavitt/status/1322220541449773058?s=12[/tweet]

That kind of thinking isn’t embedded in our culture ... that’s the result of state-sponsored misinformation.

[oregontim]

OK I guess this means I’m a member of the “Orange Man Bad” crowd, but DocSavage, and Farm93, thanks for insisting on reason and logic here. American exceptionalism indeed.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/aslavitt/status/1322220541449773058?s=12[/tweet]

That kind of thinking isn’t embedded in our culture ... that’s the result of state-sponsored misinformation.

[Goose]

Mick, have you ever been to Australia?

Australians are at least as libertarian as Americans.

I have spent lots of time in Australia. I have worked there, and still do business there. I have to completely disagree. Australians talk a good game regarding their freedoms. They even revere "stockmen" as free spirits, and "go walkabout" sometimes. That said, Australians have a very well developed sense of community and do consider it their obligation to look out after each other. As one of my friends said "Australians are willing to take a little bit less so that the other guy who needs it can get a little bit more. You Americans are not". Probably correct. Actually, it is much more than that. They are very politically docile. They will sometimes demonstrate, yell, complain etc., but when push comes to shove they do as they are told because they very much trust the system. "We are Australian" are not just words in a song. It is true that their are certain sociological "third rails" in their politics, but even these can be finessed it the government approaches it correctly.

[Goose]

Mick, have you ever been to Australia?

Australians are at least as libertarian as Americans.

I have spent lots of time in Australia. I have worked there, and still do business there. I have to completely disagree. Australians talk a good game regarding their freedoms. They even revere "stockmen" as free spirits, and "go walkabout" sometimes. That said, Australians have a very well developed sense of community and do consider it their obligation to look out after each other. As one of my friends said "Australians are willing to take a little bit less so that the other guy who needs it can get a little bit more. You Americans are not". Probably correct. Actually, it is much more than that. They are very politically docile. They will sometimes demonstrate, yell, complain etc., but when push comes to shove they do as they are told because they very much trust the system. "We are Australian" are not just words in a song. It is true that their are certain sociological "third rails" in their politics, but even these can be finessed it the government approaches it correctly.