[CowboyIndian]

TJ's correct.  Shaw is not leaving until his last child makes it past Old Union.   
He's too damn stubborn to hire a solid OC that can help this program.  I had hoped he would grow into the role and evolve and improve...I had hoped that the journey would begin after the Fiesta Bowl debacle.  It's been painful to watch...call it "death by a thousand punts" or by too many trick plays/formations that turn into delay of game calls.  He's needed to look in the mirror for too long, but I now think he's not capable of that humility.

The problem isn't the offense.

[CowboyIndian]

TJ's correct.  Shaw is not leaving until his last child makes it past Old Union.   
He's too damn stubborn to hire a solid OC that can help this program.  I had hoped he would grow into the role and evolve and improve...I had hoped that the journey would begin after the Fiesta Bowl debacle.  It's been painful to watch...call it "death by a thousand punts" or by too many trick plays/formations that turn into delay of game calls.  He's needed to look in the mirror for too long, but I now think he's not capable of that humility.

The problem isn't the offense.

[OutsiderFan]

Does anyone know of a head coach who turned around the trajectory of a program without changing at least one coordinator?

[OutsiderFan]

Does anyone know of a head coach who turned around the trajectory of a program without changing at least one coordinator?

[Langdude]

Does anyone know of a head coach who turned around the trajectory of a program without changing at least one coordinator?

Do you see the problem as coordinators (i.e., scheme and strategy) or recruiting? I know they are related... The better we are, the better we recruit. I think they are both problems, of course...

-m.

[Langdude]

Does anyone know of a head coach who turned around the trajectory of a program without changing at least one coordinator?

Do you see the problem as coordinators (i.e., scheme and strategy) or recruiting? I know they are related... The better we are, the better we recruit. I think they are both problems, of course...

-m.

[Brickcity]

TJ's correct.  Shaw is not leaving until his last child makes it past Old Union.   
He's too damn stubborn to hire a solid OC that can help this program.  I had hoped he would grow into the role and evolve and improve...I had hoped that the journey would begin after the Fiesta Bowl debacle.  It's been painful to watch...call it "death by a thousand punts" or by too many trick plays/formations that turn into delay of game calls.  He's needed to look in the mirror for too long, but I now think he's not capable of that humility.

The problem isn't the offense.

While the offense isn't as bad as the defense this year, it's also been relatively disappointing thus far, relative to expectations. And, Shaw has been a miserable offensive coordinator for years. By the way, he's ultimately responsible for the defense too.

[Brickcity]

TJ's correct.  Shaw is not leaving until his last child makes it past Old Union.   
He's too damn stubborn to hire a solid OC that can help this program.  I had hoped he would grow into the role and evolve and improve...I had hoped that the journey would begin after the Fiesta Bowl debacle.  It's been painful to watch...call it "death by a thousand punts" or by too many trick plays/formations that turn into delay of game calls.  He's needed to look in the mirror for too long, but I now think he's not capable of that humility.

The problem isn't the offense.

While the offense isn't as bad as the defense this year, it's also been relatively disappointing thus far, relative to expectations. And, Shaw has been a miserable offensive coordinator for years. By the way, he's ultimately responsible for the defense too.

[Phogge]

When I see safties who can't tackle, linemen with no push, corners beaten, the biggest defensive problems are lack of speed and talent. Some of these guys aren't on Toby Norwood level. Other guys who have had rave practice reviews are hurt every year. Thus nothing proven. I think there is talent promise on the offensive line and third down running back ability but no horse since McCaffrey. No Taylor, no Gaffney, no Toby. There is some talent on the outside but the O goes to jump balls when close and none of the tall guys have JJ's ability. The TE recruiting has been poor lately and that's a big loss in the Shaw scheme.

And what we get are post game comments after a loss blaming players for poor execution.

[Phogge]

When I see safties who can't tackle, linemen with no push, corners beaten, the biggest defensive problems are lack of speed and talent. Some of these guys aren't on Toby Norwood level. Other guys who have had rave practice reviews are hurt every year. Thus nothing proven. I think there is talent promise on the offensive line and third down running back ability but no horse since McCaffrey. No Taylor, no Gaffney, no Toby. There is some talent on the outside but the O goes to jump balls when close and none of the tall guys have JJ's ability. The TE recruiting has been poor lately and that's a big loss in the Shaw scheme.

And what we get are post game comments after a loss blaming players for poor execution.

[StanfordMatt]

Does anyone know of a head coach who turned around the trajectory of a program without changing at least one coordinator?

Sure. Phillip Montgomery at Tulsa. Note that that doesn't mean I expect Shaw to do the same.

[StanfordMatt]

Does anyone know of a head coach who turned around the trajectory of a program without changing at least one coordinator?

Sure. Phillip Montgomery at Tulsa. Note that that doesn't mean I expect Shaw to do the same.

[OutsiderFan]

Does anyone know of a head coach who turned around the trajectory of a program without changing at least one coordinator?

Do you see the problem as coordinators (i.e., scheme and strategy) or recruiting? I know they are related... The better we are, the better we recruit. I think they are both problems, of course...

-m.

I see problems everywhere. This is why we all say it's difficult to overcome a bad manger at the top.  If they aren't going to trust talented people to do their work unimpeded, success will be hard to achieve.

My primary concerns with David Shaw have always been:

1. Lack of urgency in all facets of his program, from recruiting, to assistant coach evaluation, to in-game adjustments
2. Inability to grow by doing things that make him uncomfortable*

* This includes hiring talented coordinators and letting them do their jobs. Every good manager knows the key to success is hiring people more talented than you and empowering them to do the work.  The thing is, the manager always gets the credit when those working under them are the ones responsible for the impressive results. Bad managers are too insecure to understand this and become micromanagers because they can't handle others being more capable or demonstrating their own work isn't as good. 

Davis Shaw is a tremendous figure head for Stanford Football. He has the potential to be a great Head Coach if he would just let go and let more talented coordinators do their thing. Maybe if he wasn't micromanaging the offense, he might turn into a better game manager too.

[OutsiderFan]

Does anyone know of a head coach who turned around the trajectory of a program without changing at least one coordinator?

Do you see the problem as coordinators (i.e., scheme and strategy) or recruiting? I know they are related... The better we are, the better we recruit. I think they are both problems, of course...

-m.

I see problems everywhere. This is why we all say it's difficult to overcome a bad manger at the top.  If they aren't going to trust talented people to do their work unimpeded, success will be hard to achieve.

My primary concerns with David Shaw have always been:

1. Lack of urgency in all facets of his program, from recruiting, to assistant coach evaluation, to in-game adjustments
2. Inability to grow by doing things that make him uncomfortable*

* This includes hiring talented coordinators and letting them do their jobs. Every good manager knows the key to success is hiring people more talented than you and empowering them to do the work.  The thing is, the manager always gets the credit when those working under them are the ones responsible for the impressive results. Bad managers are too insecure to understand this and become micromanagers because they can't handle others being more capable or demonstrating their own work isn't as good. 

Davis Shaw is a tremendous figure head for Stanford Football. He has the potential to be a great Head Coach if he would just let go and let more talented coordinators do their thing. Maybe if he wasn't micromanaging the offense, he might turn into a better game manager too.

[winflop]

The problem isn't the offense.

The ***BIGGEST*** problem isn't the offense

[winflop]

The problem isn't the offense.

The ***BIGGEST*** problem isn't the offense

[SamuelMcF]

The problem isn't the offense.

The ***BIGGEST*** problem isn't the offense

Ding ding ding!

[SamuelMcF]

The problem isn't the offense.

The ***BIGGEST*** problem isn't the offense

Ding ding ding!

[Maple Leaf]

Does anyone know of a head coach who turned around the trajectory of a program without changing at least one coordinator?

Do you see the problem as coordinators (i.e., scheme and strategy) or recruiting? I know they are related... The better we are, the better we recruit. I think they are both problems, of course...

-m.

That was one of John Ralston's greatest attributes along with overall program management and getting players to believe they can beat the big boys of the day, though at times (to many times) his teams failed to beat lesser teams.

I see problems everywhere. This is why we all say it's difficult to overcome a bad manger at the top.  If they aren't going to trust talented people to do their work unimpeded, success will be hard to achieve.

My primary concerns with David Shaw have always been:

1. Lack of urgency in all facets of his program, from recruiting, to assistant coach evaluation, to in-game adjustments
2. Inability to grow by doing things that make him uncomfortable*

* This includes hiring talented coordinators and letting them do their jobs. Every good manager knows the key to success is hiring people more talented than you and empowering them to do the work.  The thing is, the manager always gets the credit when those working under them are the ones responsible for the impressive results. Bad managers are too insecure to understand this and become micromanagers because they can't handle others being more capable or demonstrating their own work isn't as good. 

Davis Shaw is a tremendous figure head for Stanford Football. He has the potential to be a great Head Coach if he would just let go and let more talented coordinators do their thing. Maybe if he wasn't micromanaging the offense, he might turn into a better game manager too.

[Maple Leaf]

Does anyone know of a head coach who turned around the trajectory of a program without changing at least one coordinator?

Do you see the problem as coordinators (i.e., scheme and strategy) or recruiting? I know they are related... The better we are, the better we recruit. I think they are both problems, of course...

-m.

That was one of John Ralston's greatest attributes along with overall program management and getting players to believe they can beat the big boys of the day, though at times (to many times) his teams failed to beat lesser teams.

I see problems everywhere. This is why we all say it's difficult to overcome a bad manger at the top.  If they aren't going to trust talented people to do their work unimpeded, success will be hard to achieve.

My primary concerns with David Shaw have always been:

1. Lack of urgency in all facets of his program, from recruiting, to assistant coach evaluation, to in-game adjustments
2. Inability to grow by doing things that make him uncomfortable*

* This includes hiring talented coordinators and letting them do their jobs. Every good manager knows the key to success is hiring people more talented than you and empowering them to do the work.  The thing is, the manager always gets the credit when those working under them are the ones responsible for the impressive results. Bad managers are too insecure to understand this and become micromanagers because they can't handle others being more capable or demonstrating their own work isn't as good. 

Davis Shaw is a tremendous figure head for Stanford Football. He has the potential to be a great Head Coach if he would just let go and let more talented coordinators do their thing. Maybe if he wasn't micromanaging the offense, he might turn into a better game manager too.

[Treebound]

CI,
I agree that the problem isn't merely the offense.  As others have stated - there are now too many problems across the program and even the Shawpologists of the last few years are admitting a level of defeat.  I think OF has it nailed.  It's Shaw's lack of management skills and urgency, along with a growing complacency across the staff, especially in recruiting and S&C.    Shaw is stubborn, predictable and unwilling to surround himself with cutting edge coaching talent.  

I posit a very strong OC would challenge Shaw to be better (that's not Tavita - as nice as he is, he won't challenge his mentor).   A new OC would bring the urgency, improved recruiting, the play action, the hunger that is sorely lacking now with this program.  As I stated elsewhere, he needs to take a humble look in the mirror and focus on recruiting great coaches around him and he needs to go recruit like Jerrod Haase, with fire and urgency like his job depends on it.....because it does.   If he doesn't get that, then Muir needs to remind him....every damn day.

[Treebound]

CI,
I agree that the problem isn't merely the offense.  As others have stated - there are now too many problems across the program and even the Shawpologists of the last few years are admitting a level of defeat.  I think OF has it nailed.  It's Shaw's lack of management skills and urgency, along with a growing complacency across the staff, especially in recruiting and S&C.    Shaw is stubborn, predictable and unwilling to surround himself with cutting edge coaching talent.  

I posit a very strong OC would challenge Shaw to be better (that's not Tavita - as nice as he is, he won't challenge his mentor).   A new OC would bring the urgency, improved recruiting, the play action, the hunger that is sorely lacking now with this program.  As I stated elsewhere, he needs to take a humble look in the mirror and focus on recruiting great coaches around him and he needs to go recruit like Jerrod Haase, with fire and urgency like his job depends on it.....because it does.   If he doesn't get that, then Muir needs to remind him....every damn day.

[BostonCard]

They have attacked the 2022 recruiting class with renewed vigor.  We have no offered more people, earlier, than in any other year in the Shaw era.  Now, we will see if this yields results and if they are willing to actively press Stanford's case, instead of just asking the recruits to "call me maybe".  You can argue that it shouldn't have taken until Shaw's 12th recruiting class or the fifth one since the signing day changed in 2017 (something that has clearly hurt Stanford, exacerbated by Shaw's trouble adjusting to the new calendar). I think those are more than fair critiques.  But the idea that he is somehow oblivious to the problem and not adjusting is not consistent with the jumbo classes of 2020 (which got us back to 80+ scholarships filled) and 2022.

What I would like to see is more consistency here, and instead of alternating hard recruiting pushes followed by fallow classes, I would like to see a full court press recruiting every year.  That means closing on the 2022 offers, and then making a big push to 2023, instead of relaxing and assuming that if we have a good year in 2022, that we can take the foot off the recruiting gas.

BC

[BostonCard]

They have attacked the 2022 recruiting class with renewed vigor.  We have no offered more people, earlier, than in any other year in the Shaw era.  Now, we will see if this yields results and if they are willing to actively press Stanford's case, instead of just asking the recruits to "call me maybe".  You can argue that it shouldn't have taken until Shaw's 12th recruiting class or the fifth one since the signing day changed in 2017 (something that has clearly hurt Stanford, exacerbated by Shaw's trouble adjusting to the new calendar). I think those are more than fair critiques.  But the idea that he is somehow oblivious to the problem and not adjusting is not consistent with the jumbo classes of 2020 (which got us back to 80+ scholarships filled) and 2022.

What I would like to see is more consistency here, and instead of alternating hard recruiting pushes followed by fallow classes, I would like to see a full court press recruiting every year.  That means closing on the 2022 offers, and then making a big push to 2023, instead of relaxing and assuming that if we have a good year in 2022, that we can take the foot off the recruiting gas.

BC

[Phogge]

I would like to see more Dave Wyman's and more Ben Gardner's and less guys who have hangnails.

[Phogge]

I would like to see more Dave Wyman's and more Ben Gardner's and less guys who have hangnails.

[old spanish trail]

I may be totally pollyannaish here, but I think if we could ever play a game with a real QB who has had some reps, our offense would be excellent. Whether the D can hold anybody at bay without any proven ILB, or OLB for that matter, with no pass rush, and just two good enuf db's remains to be seen. Btw, Wash looks great vs Arizona, who should have beaten SC last week.

Also, I watched alot of the Indiana-OSU game today. Indiana was amazingly competitive, and much to my surprise, Dylan Powell played the whole game at LG. He did get run over a few times, but the Indiana QB had a quick release which saved a ton of plays.

[old spanish trail]

I may be totally pollyannaish here, but I think if we could ever play a game with a real QB who has had some reps, our offense would be excellent. Whether the D can hold anybody at bay without any proven ILB, or OLB for that matter, with no pass rush, and just two good enuf db's remains to be seen. Btw, Wash looks great vs Arizona, who should have beaten SC last week.

Also, I watched alot of the Indiana-OSU game today. Indiana was amazingly competitive, and much to my surprise, Dylan Powell played the whole game at LG. He did get run over a few times, but the Indiana QB had a quick release which saved a ton of plays.

[GK3]

I may be totally pollyannaish here, but I think if we could ever play a game with a real QB who has had some reps, our offense would be excellent. Whether the D can hold anybody at bay without any proven ILB, or OLB for that matter, with no pass rush, and just two good enuf db's remains to be seen. Btw, Wash looks great vs Arizona, who should have beaten SC last week.

Also, I watched alot of the Indiana-OSU game today. Indiana was amazingly competitive, and much to my surprise, Dylan Powell played the whole game at LG. He did get run over a few times, but the Indiana QB had a quick release which saved a ton of plays.

As I see it, Tavita is the OC in name only, at title provided by DS so he could pay him more money.  I don't think any play is called unless Shaw gives his OK,  I see DS as a manager who is afraid to really delegate for fear the second line manage he delegates to will make him look bad.  Fact is he is probably correct if he thinks that way.

[GK3]

I may be totally pollyannaish here, but I think if we could ever play a game with a real QB who has had some reps, our offense would be excellent. Whether the D can hold anybody at bay without any proven ILB, or OLB for that matter, with no pass rush, and just two good enuf db's remains to be seen. Btw, Wash looks great vs Arizona, who should have beaten SC last week.

Also, I watched alot of the Indiana-OSU game today. Indiana was amazingly competitive, and much to my surprise, Dylan Powell played the whole game at LG. He did get run over a few times, but the Indiana QB had a quick release which saved a ton of plays.

As I see it, Tavita is the OC in name only, at title provided by DS so he could pay him more money.  I don't think any play is called unless Shaw gives his OK,  I see DS as a manager who is afraid to really delegate for fear the second line manage he delegates to will make him look bad.  Fact is he is probably correct if he thinks that way.

[chrisk]

After 12 years, Northwestern replaced its OC with the former BC OC. Fitzgerald and the new OC recruited grad transfer QB Peyton Ramsey who had 3 years (23 starts) of playing experience. Last year, Northwestern went 3-9 and are now 5-0 after upsetting Wisconsin today. A new OC and a new but highly experienced quality QB along with a stout defense can make a big difference. Stanford may have problems fixing all 3 issues at the same time.

[chrisk]

After 12 years, Northwestern replaced its OC with the former BC OC. Fitzgerald and the new OC recruited grad transfer QB Peyton Ramsey who had 3 years (23 starts) of playing experience. Last year, Northwestern went 3-9 and are now 5-0 after upsetting Wisconsin today. A new OC and a new but highly experienced quality QB along with a stout defense can make a big difference. Stanford may have problems fixing all 3 issues at the same time.

[OutsiderFan]

How many Shaw assistants have advanced their careers after working under him?

Is there any former Shaw assistant who has become a Head Coach other than Mason, who will be fired after this season after never having a winning one? Has any former Shaw position coach become a coordinator?

I'm not sure any coach who has coached under Shaw has ever ascended. If you look at even Pep Hamilton and Jason Tarver - arguably the most renowned former Shaw assistants - they are now NFL position coaches, not coordinators.

There are three types of effective coaches:

1. Climbers - hungry young coaches who operate with their hair in fire
2. Loyalists - coaches excel because they have a great head coach demanding them to perform and don't want to leave them
3. Achievers - the elite coaches who have been climbers, but finally settle somewhere, and never get lazy no matter how much they are paid

There are three types of ineffective coaches:

1. Peters - they get a shot at coaching, just aren't very good and show they can't handle promotions (Peter principle)
2. Holdovers - they aren't the ones who built a program from ashes, but take it over after the one who did leaves, and they can't sustain
3. Complacent - these coaches have achieved at a high level, been highly compensated, lauded, and get lazy

You want your Head Coach to be an Achiever. Unfortunately, there aren't many of these guys. If you get one you hold on to him for dear life, but the worst thing you can do is commit to someone who isn't.

[OutsiderFan]

How many Shaw assistants have advanced their careers after working under him?

Is there any former Shaw assistant who has become a Head Coach other than Mason, who will be fired after this season after never having a winning one? Has any former Shaw position coach become a coordinator?

I'm not sure any coach who has coached under Shaw has ever ascended. If you look at even Pep Hamilton and Jason Tarver - arguably the most renowned former Shaw assistants - they are now NFL position coaches, not coordinators.

There are three types of effective coaches:

1. Climbers - hungry young coaches who operate with their hair in fire
2. Loyalists - coaches excel because they have a great head coach demanding them to perform and don't want to leave them
3. Achievers - the elite coaches who have been climbers, but finally settle somewhere, and never get lazy no matter how much they are paid

There are three types of ineffective coaches:

1. Peters - they get a shot at coaching, just aren't very good and show they can't handle promotions (Peter principle)
2. Holdovers - they aren't the ones who built a program from ashes, but take it over after the one who did leaves, and they can't sustain
3. Complacent - these coaches have achieved at a high level, been highly compensated, lauded, and get lazy

You want your Head Coach to be an Achiever. Unfortunately, there aren't many of these guys. If you get one you hold on to him for dear life, but the worst thing you can do is commit to someone who isn't.

[BostonCard]

Is there any former Shaw assistant who has become a Head Coach other than Mason, who will be fired after this season after never having a winning one?

Well, there's this guy: https://riceowls.com/sports/football/ros...omgren/409

Has any former Shaw position coach become a coordinator?

Does this guy qualify: https://unlvrebels.com/sports/football/r...ansen/3279

So, I guess the answer is yes?

BC

[BostonCard]

Is there any former Shaw assistant who has become a Head Coach other than Mason, who will be fired after this season after never having a winning one?

Well, there's this guy: https://riceowls.com/sports/football/ros...omgren/409

Has any former Shaw position coach become a coordinator?

Does this guy qualify: https://unlvrebels.com/sports/football/r...ansen/3279

So, I guess the answer is yes?

BC

[Maple Leaf]

Mike Sanford has been the OC at Boise St., ND, Utah State and now at Minnesota.   In addition his was head coach ( at Western Kentucky ?).  Plus he was recruiting coordinator when at Stanford.

[Maple Leaf]

Mike Sanford has been the OC at Boise St., ND, Utah State and now at Minnesota.   In addition his was head coach ( at Western Kentucky ?).  Plus he was recruiting coordinator when at Stanford.

[BostonCard]

The irony is that given his long tenure and historical success, Shaw's coaching tree is fairly limited (a "coaching shrub" to quote slide).  So, it would have been easy to argue that his limited coaching tree reflects poorly on Shaw (though there are other, alternate explanations).  However, because some people want to hyperbolize and pretend that no assistant coach has ever left Stanford for a higher position elsewhere, we are wasting our time fact checking instead of actually discussing whether more turnover might not be better.

The better argument was the immediate effect that Northwestern firing Nick McCall and hiring Mike Bajakian has had.  I will notice, however, that McCall was fired after being Fitzgerald's OC 12(!) years.

https://athlonsports.com/college-footbal...oordinator

Northwestern finished the regular season ranked 126th out of 130 FBS teams in total offense (297.1 ypg) and 127th in scoring offense (16.3 ppg). At second to last in the scoring offense in the Big Ten, it was the worst showing for a Wildcats offense since landing dead last (14th) in 2015, albeit at 19.5 points per game. And that season, Northwestern finished higher on the FBS leaderboard (114th) compared to 2019 as well.

Worth noting that Stanford's total offense last year was 80 yards and a touchdown better than NW's, and this was not McCall's first time with a putrid offense, as the article makes plain.  Of course, I don't want our offense to fall to <300 yards and <20 points before we fire our OC, and, as I have mentioned previously, while I think Pritchard will eventually be a good OC and potential head coach, both he and Stanford would benefit significantly if he spent some time learning another system.  While I think Shaw's loyalty is admirable, it has some very significant drawbacks, the largest of which are that we don't inject new ideas into the system fast enough.  The offense these days seems way too much like it is being run by someone who has seen the offensive concepts on film and has a general idea of how they are supposed to work, but hasn't really lived them.

BC

[BostonCard]

The irony is that given his long tenure and historical success, Shaw's coaching tree is fairly limited (a "coaching shrub" to quote slide).  So, it would have been easy to argue that his limited coaching tree reflects poorly on Shaw (though there are other, alternate explanations).  However, because some people want to hyperbolize and pretend that no assistant coach has ever left Stanford for a higher position elsewhere, we are wasting our time fact checking instead of actually discussing whether more turnover might not be better.

The better argument was the immediate effect that Northwestern firing Nick McCall and hiring Mike Bajakian has had.  I will notice, however, that McCall was fired after being Fitzgerald's OC 12(!) years.

https://athlonsports.com/college-footbal...oordinator

Northwestern finished the regular season ranked 126th out of 130 FBS teams in total offense (297.1 ypg) and 127th in scoring offense (16.3 ppg). At second to last in the scoring offense in the Big Ten, it was the worst showing for a Wildcats offense since landing dead last (14th) in 2015, albeit at 19.5 points per game. And that season, Northwestern finished higher on the FBS leaderboard (114th) compared to 2019 as well.

Worth noting that Stanford's total offense last year was 80 yards and a touchdown better than NW's, and this was not McCall's first time with a putrid offense, as the article makes plain.  Of course, I don't want our offense to fall to <300 yards and <20 points before we fire our OC, and, as I have mentioned previously, while I think Pritchard will eventually be a good OC and potential head coach, both he and Stanford would benefit significantly if he spent some time learning another system.  While I think Shaw's loyalty is admirable, it has some very significant drawbacks, the largest of which are that we don't inject new ideas into the system fast enough.  The offense these days seems way too much like it is being run by someone who has seen the offensive concepts on film and has a general idea of how they are supposed to work, but hasn't really lived them.

BC