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Thread locked, so . . . - teejers1 - 04-06-2020
to 2006 Alum, because providing a geographic name is a factual indicator that helps people associate virus with origin. Is there something wrong with that?
For example, if there was some virus that broke out from a Stanford lab or something and it was colloquially called "the Stanford virus," would you have a problem with that? If so, why?
Trying to find nefarious intent in everything must get so tiresome. And btw, this has nothing to do with the occupant of the WH who has clustered the federal response to a fare thee well.
P.S. To your "reverse question," I'd have the same response - why can't those be called by geographic origins, too? They can have "generally accepted scientific names," too, but there is nothing "wrong" with giving virus's more readily associative names, at least from this angle.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - Genuine Realist - 04-06-2020
I'll continue the once.
To the extent possible,i'm not engaging in partisan debates. When the history of these last three months is written, it's going to be a lot more complicated than the present reportage.
The main thing is to get out of this mess as quickly as possible, and with minimum damage. The political chips can fall where they may.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - 2006alum - 04-06-2020
First, WHO guidelines since 2015 have recommended against geographic naming.
Second, geographic naming is often misleading. The "Spanish Flu" did not originate in Spain. Indeed, the first known case was actually in Kansas. (It got the name the Spanish Flu because Spain was neutral in WWI and so did not have a propaganda machine in place to launch a national campaign that everything was normal. As a result, news broke there first.)
Third, the "nefarious intent" is right in front of our faces. Trump wants to call it the China virus because it stokes his base's belief that everything bad is someone else's fault, especially when that someone else is foreign:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1240721547133927426?s=20[/tweet]
The evidence is literally in plain view. Calling it the China virus is a politically motivated effort by certain Republicans in order to shift the blame to China. I don't know how that isn't totally obvious to you.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - stupac2 - 04-06-2020
I attempted to lock the thread because it was clearly devolving into partisan bickering which we want to avoid if possible, but thought that the lock didn't take because no "thread locked" icon ever appeared for me. It may just be my unfamiliar with the tools.
But, in general, if you find yourself wanting to post something to defend "your side", please refrain. This forum has relaxed rules but things will go sideways a lot faster if you turn it into us vs them, where it's anything besides "humanity vs the virus".
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - Scooter_Stepford - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 01:07 PM)2006alum Wrote: First, WHO guidelines since 2015 have recommended against geographic naming.
Second, geographic naming is often misleading. The "Spanish Flu" did not originate in Spain. Indeed, the first known case was actually in Kansas. (It got the name the Spanish Flu because Spain was neutral in WWI and so did not have a propaganda machine in place to launch a national campaign that everything was normal. As a result, news broke there first.)
Third, the "nefarious intent" is right in front of our faces. Trump wants to call it the China virus because it stokes his base's belief that everything bad is someone else's fault, especially when that someone else is foreign:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1240721547133927426?s=20[/tweet]
The evidence is literally in plain view. Calling it the China virus is a politically motivated effort by certain Republicans in order to shift the blame to China. I don't know how that isn't totally obvious to you.
Oh, as long as WHO mandated it...
Yeah, they’ve been a shining light in this whole debacle.
Call the virus whatever you want. The root cause of this whole thing is that China had a problem and didn’t want to play with others. Despite protestations to the contrary on this forum, CDC and WHO tried to get involved, committing to send resources to the epicenter. (Google “China deny CDC Coronavirus” and look for the NYT article dated 2/7/20). The whole world is now paying a horrible price for China’s coverup and WHO’s complicity.
But, maybe pointing that out is ‘nefarious’, since it’s a given that Trump’s ineptitude is the real problem here.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - 2006alum - 04-06-2020
To be clear, I definitely think CCP party officials bear responsibility for being less than fully cooperative and for efforts to conceal the degree of damage wreaked by the Virus. But China is 1.3 billion people, many of whom were themselves outraged at the CCP's efforts to obsfucate. So if your aim is to name the virus as a matter of culpability, perhaps call it the Xi Virus.
In any case, from the time they locked down 60 million people in Hubei on January 22nd, I knew this was a really big deal. A lockdown that size was, at the time, unprecedented in modern history. My belief is always to watch what people do, not what they say. To that end, in my Amazon order history, I see I have a mask order from January 24th. (And boy am I glad I did, because I have been unable to acquire any since.) It was obvious to me then that it was bad, and that it was going to hit everyone eventually.
China's concealment plausibly slowed a response in the U.S. up to January 22nd. From Jan. 22 on, the evidence from China was plain for those who wanted to pay attention. South Korea, Hong Kong, Japan, and Singapore did. For whatever reason, most of the rest of the world chose to ignore it.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - BostonCard - 04-06-2020
Well, we do have the Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome (MERS), which did start in the Middle East and has been associated with transmission from camels.
I could give a rats arse what we call this thing; I just want an administration that pursues policies to contain it. I think to GR's point, when the history of this virus is written, nobody is going to come out looking so hot, except maybe Taiwan. The Chinese Communist Party's missteps early in the epidemic almost certainly contributed to the spread of the virus, but, I don't get to vote on who China's leaders are (nor, for that matter do the Chinese).
On the other hand, America's leaders are accountable to its people, and many (not just in the administration, but in state and local governments both Democratic and Republican) have failed at a time when we most needed them to step up. Once upon a time, we had a President who knew where the buck stopped.
BC
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - dabigv13 - 04-06-2020
We didn't need the cooperation of China to know in early January that this was potentially serious. Our intelligence agencies and military was on top of the threat by January. We had senators selling their stocks in late January. And yet our federal response was pretty much nil until mid March.
Even if China was completely open and forthright in late December, we still wouldn't have responded like South Korea did, even though we each had first cases the same day in January. Part of that is likely cultural/societal, but a big part is our government was not prepared and our leadership did not recognize the threat. Where does the buck stop for that?
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - fullmetal - 04-06-2020
Brock Turner's press nickname as the "Stanford rapist" irked me to no end, and similarly, the "Chinese virus" annoys me because it is at once both extremely vague and inflammatory as the term Chinese is nearly exclusively a perjorative in the mouths of certain media outlets. To fight that perception, it would be nice to do away with "Chinese virus."
Wuhan virus, SARS-CoV-2, etc. are fine. But the insistence on using "Chinese virus" (there are more than one) is not specific enough to be anything more than a racial dogwhistle. Do better.
Also, I concur with everyone else who took notice of the Wuhan lockdown. Quasi-martial law for a city of 11 million is not a light undertaking, and to not assume the worst from there was foolish.
Yes, I believe China was and still is hiding figures from the WHO. Crowdsourced internet videos of bodies being dragged out of quarantined apartments, reports of dead bodies never being tested for the virus, etc. were too numerous to ignore. I hear the incinerators are still working 24/7.
I agree that the politicians didn't know what was going on, although one side tends to listen to scientists more often than the other. This is an important distinction. Also, one side managed to amputate key positions in the constellation of federal agencies that would have served as key sensor/recon posts in the arena of pandemic response. This is also important to weigh as people decide that finger-pointing toward the other side should absolve their side of any responsibility.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - Genuine Realist - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 01:53 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Well, we do have the Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome (MERS), which did start in the Middle East and has been associated with transmission from camels.
I could give a rats arse what we call this thing; I just want an administration that pursues policies to contain it. I think to GR's point, when the history of this virus is written, nobody is going to come out looking so hot, except maybe Taiwan. The Chinese Communist Party's missteps early in the epidemic almost certainly contributed to the spread of the virus, but, I don't get to vote on who China's leaders are (nor, for that matter do the Chinese).
On the other hand, America's leaders are accountable to its people, and many (not just in the administration, but in state and local governments both Democratic and Republican) have failed at a time when we most needed them to step up. Once upon a time, we had a President who knew where the buck stopped.
BC
Maybe, but i don't think there was one government in the world that reacted with the alacrity required. You need social awareness as well as political will, and neither was there.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - dabigv13 - 04-06-2020
Exactly. They took truly extraordinary measures within their country to stop this thing, and we all had evidence of that, even in the normal press. To blame China for hiding things is pretty ridiculous. What more did we need them to tell us?
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - pefloresjr - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 12:54 PM)teejers1 Wrote: to 2006 Alum, because providing a geographic name is a factual indicator that helps people associate virus with origin. Is there something wrong with that?
For example, if there was some virus that broke out from a Stanford lab or something and it was colloquially called "the Stanford virus," would you have a problem with that? If so, why?
Trying to find nefarious intent in everything must get so tiresome. And btw, this has nothing to do with the occupant of the WH who has clustered the federal response to a fare thee well.
P.S. To your "reverse question," I'd have the same response - why can't those be called by geographic origins, too? They can have "generally accepted scientific names," too, but there is nothing "wrong" with giving virus's more readily associative names, at least from this angle.
This is really simple. Associating the virus with China is causing Asians to be discriminated against and even assaulted. You have stated nothing in support of using China or Wuhan that comes even close to that in terms of importance. It comes down to common courtesy. If I am doing something that is or even could be causing others harm and I have easy alternatives to doing that thing, I should take the easy alternative and not risk harming others.
To make it clear that this is really happening I offer an incident that recently happened to my across-the-street neighbor. She is Asian and regularly walks her dog around the block. I do the same with my dog and we often see each other. I saw her the other day and she told me that she was afraid to walk her dog because a few weeks ago, someone driving by in a car started yelling something to her about being Chinese. She hurried back to her house and is now in fear every time she leaves her home. She had never had anything like this happen before. This did not happen in some backwater, we live in a nice area in San Francisco. If we can all just use the scientifically accepted name for COVID19, it could help to start to minimize discrimination such as this. Even the President seems to have stopped calling it the China or Wuhan virus. There is nothing to be gained by it and a great deal to be lost.
Cheers,
Pete F.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - Goose - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 01:53 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Once upon a time, we had a President who knew where the buck stopped.Yes, and that President virtually destroyed the Navy and got us into the Korean war, for which we were totally unprepared. I point this out not to single out Truman as a bad president, but rather to show that Presidents with the best of intentions often have bad outcomes in many areas. In some areas he arguably took the wrong advice.
BC
(04-06-2020, 02:02 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: We didn't need the cooperation of China to know in early January that this was potentially serious. Our intelligence agencies and military was on top of the threat by January. We had senators selling their stocks in late January. And yet our federal response was pretty much nil until mid March.The buck stops with us, the people. I don't doubt that many bad decisions were made at the Federal level. I also don't doubt that many decisions were hashed over to death and made very slowly. However, the real problem was that our nation was not prepared to deal with this epidemic. If you don't have the tools, your options are limited and many possible good decisions are off the table. This was not a secret. This was true in 1980 as well as it is true today.
Even if China was completely open and forthright in late December, we still wouldn't have responded like South Korea did, even though we each had first cases the same day in January. Part of that is likely cultural/societal, but a big part is our government was not prepared and our leadership did not recognize the threat. Where does the buck stop for that?
Nobody really knew what was going to happen. It is a lot easier to respond to a threat if you have practiced the drill and know what your resources can and can't do. Leadership is always going to be slow to recognize a situation they have never encountered before. This is especially true when we have recently has some "false alarms" about virus dangers. Why didn't the leaders of Europe recognize it any faster? Korea and Taiwan were blessed by having a built-in public heath response left over from previous outbreaks that had affected their nations to a significant degree. The could deploy that without shutting down their countries. If that failed, then plan B. We didn't have that option.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - cardcrimson - 04-06-2020
Posted without comment:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_xenophobia_and_racism_related_to_the_2019–20_coronavirus_pandemic
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - Scooter_Stepford - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 02:13 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: Exactly. They took truly extraordinary measures within their country to stop this thing, and we all had evidence of that, even in the normal press. To blame China for hiding things is pretty ridiculous. What more did we need them to tell us?
It’s good to know that delaying the ability of CDC and WHO to conduct a thorough risk assessment had no effect on the pandemic’s growth curve.
In the interim, the experts had to interpret the conflicting information they received. Most countries came to the wrong interpretation. In the US, the esteemed Dr. Fauci repeatedly downplayed the risk through early February.
China had a chance to be a responsible global citizen and did the opposite. That’s what’s ridiculous.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - magnus - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 02:11 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: Maybe, but i don't think there was one government in the world that reacted with the alacrity required. You need social awareness as well as political will, and neither was there.I believe Taiwan acted immediately (Jan 20th, activated their Central Epidemic Control Center). It helps to have near complete distrust of China and to have been devastated by SARS.
Singapore also acted quickly and aggressively as far as contact tracing went.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - oldalum - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 02:13 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: What more did we need them to tell us?How about the truth? Such as, it was being transmitted person-to-person (when they were telling us this was not happening). That it was fatal in many cases. That it was spreading exponentially. And they could have allowed a few of our people to come over to monitor and learn, instead of denying permission so they could continue covering it up as long as possible. And allowed their scientists to send us and others a sample of the virus so everyone could start working on a test for it. Yes, of course, once a significant lockdown was enacted, it was obvious that this was a major problem. But everyone outside of China could have benefited from a substantial head start before then. I think they have great initial culpability, irrespective of our subsequent missteps and lack of preparedness. What would have been the real (non-political) downside to being truthful and forthcoming from the start? Compare their initial communications to the world to what (I hope) would we would have done if the virus and initial infections had originated here.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - dabigv13 - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 02:28 PM)Goose Wrote:(04-06-2020, 01:53 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Once upon a time, we had a President who knew where the buck stopped.Yes, and that President virtually destroyed the Navy and got us into the Korean war, for which we were totally unprepared. I point this out not to single out Truman as a bad president, but rather to show that Presidents with the best of intentions often have bad outcomes in many areas. In some areas he arguably took the wrong advice.
BC
(04-06-2020, 02:02 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: We didn't need the cooperation of China to know in early January that this was potentially serious. Our intelligence agencies and military was on top of the threat by January. We had senators selling their stocks in late January. And yet our federal response was pretty much nil until mid March.The buck stops with us, the people. I don't doubt that many bad decisions were made at the Federal level. I also don't doubt that many decisions were hashed over to death and made very slowly. However, the real problem was that our nation was not prepared to deal with this epidemic. If you don't have the tools, your options are limited and many possible good decisions are off the table. This was not a secret. This was true in 1980 as well as it is true today.
Even if China was completely open and forthright in late December, we still wouldn't have responded like South Korea did, even though we each had first cases the same day in January. Part of that is likely cultural/societal, but a big part is our government was not prepared and our leadership did not recognize the threat. Where does the buck stop for that?
Nobody really knew what was going to happen. It is a lot easier to respond to a threat if you have practiced the drill and know what your resources can and can't do. Leadership is always going to be slow to recognize a situation they have never encountered before. This is especially true when we have recently has some "false alarms" about virus dangers. Why didn't the leaders of Europe recognize it any faster? Korea and Taiwan were blessed by having a built-in public heath response left over from previous outbreaks that had affected their nations to a significant degree. The could deploy that without shutting down their countries. If that failed, then plan B. We didn't have that option.
We have leaders to lead us. Blame...the people? I'm a person, in February I was telling all my friends and family to start preparing for the likely situation we are in right now. I don't have the power to shut down or restrict travel, increase PPE and ventilator production, coordinate state responses. The people we all elected do, but they didn't lead. That is their failing, not the failing of the people. Sure, this is unprecedented. We didn't wear masks out in public like Asian countries. We love liberty or whatever. Doesn't excuse the complete lack of preparation by our leaders.
(04-06-2020, 02:59 PM)oldalum Wrote:(04-06-2020, 02:13 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: What more did we need them to tell us?How about the truth? Such as, it was being transmitted person-to-person (when they were telling us this was not happening). That it was fatal in many cases. That it was spreading exponentially. And they could have allowed a few of our people to come over to monitor and learn, instead of denying permission so they could continue covering it up as long as possible. And allowed their scientists to send us and others a sample of the virus so everyone could start working on a test for it. Yes, of course, once a significant lockdown was enacted.
Wuhan locked down January 23rd. The NYT had its first article about a mystery viral pneumonia in China in January 6th. Our intelligence agencies knew about person to person spread and deaths in January. China gave us plenty of time to get this under control and showed us how to do it too. But our leaders wasted that time.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - magnus - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 02:59 PM)oldalum Wrote: Compare their initial communications to the world to what (I hope) would we would have done if the virus and initial infections had originated here.I'm not too confident we would have been all that honest initially either. Probably depends on the circumstances with which the virus were discovered. One excuse likely given is that sometimes we try to balance complete honesty against all out pandemonium.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - cardcrimson - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 03:02 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: Our intelligence agencies knew about person to person spread and deaths in January. . . . But our leaders wasted that time.
How could our leaders, including those with congressional oversight of the intelligence agencies, missed what was happening in China during December, January and early February?