CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - Printable Version
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CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - chrisk - 04-21-2020
https://www.ocregister.com/2020/04/20/cal-state-fullerton-announces-plans-to-start-fall-semester-with-virtual-classrooms/
Stanford Provost Drell told the Faculty Senate last week that a fall quarter online was one of the scenarios they are considering.
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - Farm93 - 04-21-2020
(04-21-2020, 01:45 PM)chrisk Wrote: https://www.ocregister.com/2020/04/20/cal-state-fullerton-announces-plans-to-start-fall-semester-with-virtual-classrooms/Online is going to happen.
Stanford Provost Drell told the Faculty Senate last week that a fall quarter online was one of the scenarios they are considering.
Just imagine the risk with the alternative. The students go all over the world over the summer and return to campus. Inevitably some percentage will have COVID19 when they return. The campus is set up so that everyone jumps into classes shortly after they arrive. Therefore even if it is only 5 or 10 students they will each have long duration interactions with ~30-50+ students in their dorm and dining hall and a similar number of people in their classes. The exponential growth potential over a week or two could leave a university in big trouble.
While the student health is a concern, the bigger reason for the online approach will be the members of the faculty that are 50+ years old. Office hours, sessions with their grad TA teams, advisory meetings and any small room classes would create opportunities for spread and some of those 50+ year-old faculty members will likely struggle to survive.
How many students and faculty members would need to be sick before the school would need to close? That type of mid-session closure would be so expensive and so chaotic for everyone.
The CDC is suggesting the 2nd wave this fall/winter will be worse, so I can only imagine that the 2020-2021 academic year could be an online only deal for a number of schools. That type of decision will cause a number of other issues with enrollment and lost revenue, but for most schools almost anything will be better than having a hot spot emerge in a college dorm or in a research facility.
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - OutsiderFan - 04-21-2020
This doesn't bode well for Fall season NCAA sports happening this Fall. I can't imagine CSUF is going to be some sort of outlier in the CSU system or that UC won't be acting in a similar fashion.
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - Farm93 - 04-21-2020
I will assume CSUF is not doing this on their own. I can only imagine that the other CSU schools are just about to announce similar news to their staffs. Very hard to imagine the CSUF, in the OC with relatively few COVID deaths, would go online while LBSU, CSULA, CSUDH, CSUN and Cal-Poly Pomona push forward in LA county where the plurality of CA COVID deaths are located.
If the D1 CSUs are online at the start of the academic year then the NCAA will likely not have Fall 2020 sports. If it is not safe for CSU students to be on campus it is not even credible to believe those CSU schools would allow the students to train, travel and compete on athletic teams in August and September. If the CSUF teams are not competing for safety reasons and then there is any COVID19 health issue at another school, I hope that school has very good liability insurance.
I wonder how long it will take for the Pac-12 and the NCAA to come to the CSUF realization?
(04-21-2020, 02:37 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: This doesn't bode well for Fall season NCAA sports happening this Fall. I can't imagine CSUF is going to be some sort of outlier in the CSU system or that UC won't be acting in a similar fashion.That's what I thought too.
The OC has something like 30 or 40 COVID19 deaths.
LA County has something above 400 COVID deaths.
So hard to believe CSUF could declare this policy without knowing that all of the LA county based CSUs & UCLA are doing a similar thing because this announcement almost forces them to do the same thing now.
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - cardcrimson - 04-21-2020
Fullerton is a commuter school, with only 6% living on campus. Seems like it's a lot easier for a commuter school, where kids are driving in from all over So Cal each day, to temporarily switch to online courses.
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - magnus - 04-21-2020
(04-21-2020, 02:33 PM)Farm93 Wrote: Online is going to happen.
Just imagine the risk with the alternative. The students go all over the world over the summer and return to campus. Inevitably some percentage will have COVID19 when they return. The campus is set up so that everyone jumps into classes shortly after they arrive. Therefore even if it is only 5 or 10 students they will each have long duration interactions with ~30-50+ students in their dorm and dining hall and a similar number of people in their classes. The exponential growth potential over a week or two could leave a university in big trouble.
If we're going to be opening states back up in the next couple months, we're going to have to have testing. If we have testing, we can test every student who comes in to school. That should hopefully reduce the chances of a breakout. (at least, I'd guess that could be one argument used to reopen universities)
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - teejers1 - 04-21-2020
(04-21-2020, 02:37 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: This doesn't bode well for Fall season NCAA sports happening this Fall. I can't imagine CSUF is going to be some sort of outlier in the CSU system or that UC won't be acting in a similar fashion.
Hmm. I could see a rationale where this bodes the other way.
I'm wondering if schools will go online (and collect tuition from some/many), and then take a subset of the student body (athletes), isolate them, and allow them to compete. The risks described above all go down (though the overall risk of doing this is greater than not doing it, of course). And the school earns at least some $$ from football, for example.
It would be completely counter-intuitive for this to happen - having no kids at college, except the athletes who are competing on behalf of the school. But if you consider that football sustains so many college athletic programs across the country, I could see where a broad swath of schools - the football-crazed schools in the south, as well as schools who like to field college teams in many sports - would want to find a way for this to work. Yes, football $$ would be down due to no/limited gates. But there still would be TV money, which is real. There are also the "body bag" games (pun unintended) that are scheduled precisely because those schools need the $$ to sustain the athletic programs. And the risk of this approach would be lower than that with all students back on all campuses.
Having said all that, I doubt it happens. But otoh, I wouldn't be shocked if it did. Stanford, of course, will take the high road and not compete. But some might argue that that would have happened regardless . . .
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - 2006alum - 04-21-2020
So what happens when some student-athletes don't want to play, or have parents who threaten to sue if their children are forced to play? Will schools take away their scholarships? The optics of not allowing on-campus attendance but requiring student-athlete participation will be horrible, all the more so given the NCAA's tone-deaf approach to compensation for student-athletes. Even if there's a 1/10000 chance that a 20-year-old exposed to COVID-19 dies from it, all it will take is one ICU admission to put the kibosh on the whole thing.
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - Farm93 - 04-21-2020
(04-21-2020, 04:46 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(04-21-2020, 02:37 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: This doesn't bode well for Fall season NCAA sports happening this Fall. I can't imagine CSUF is going to be some sort of outlier in the CSU system or that UC won't be acting in a similar fashion.
Hmm. I could see a rationale where this bodes the other way.
I'm wondering if schools will go online (and collect tuition from some/many), and then take a subset of the student body (athletes), isolate them, and allow them to compete. The risks described above all go down (though the overall risk of doing this is greater than not doing it, of course). And the school earns at least some $$ from football, for example.
It would be completely counter-intuitive for this to happen - having no kids at college, except the athletes who are competing on behalf of the school. But if you consider that football sustains so many college athletic programs across the country, I could see where a broad swath of schools - the football-crazed schools in the south, as well as schools who like to field college teams in many sports - would want to find a way for this to work. Yes, football $$ would be down due to no/limited gates. But there still would be TV money, which is real. There are also the "body bag" games (pun unintended) that are scheduled precisely because those schools need the $$ to sustain the athletic programs. And the risk of this approach would be lower than that with all students back on all campuses.
Having said all that, I doubt it happens. But otoh, I wouldn't be shocked if it did. Stanford, of course, will take the high road and not compete. But some might argue that that would have happened regardless . . .
The lack of other students would be great for the quarantine aspects of playing without fans. And, in theory, the student-athletes could easily keep up with classes while living far away from campus. So if the NCAA was JUST D1 football all would be fine.
However, the NCAA is not just D1 football, so that creates a lot of problems across the full range of divisions and sports.
That wide range of sports is not the biggest problem though. Bigger problems are the perception of student-athletes for the NCAA and the impact of an outbreak which would be inevitable.
The perception - Mighty bad look for the NCAA and schools to say it is not safe for students to meet with their professors on campus, but OK for student-athletes to meet with their coaches and practice on campus just to entertain the masses.
The outbreak - It would only be a matter of time for some player(s) to test positive. What then? Does that school forfeit and stop if they have one positive test? Two positive tests? More? Would a conference, or the NCAA, test players multiple times a week, while grocery workers, police officers, and health care workers go weeks between tests? While most citizens never get tested at all? That's also a very bad look.
CSUF's decision more or less foreshadows an action we will likely see across the state
CSUF is a commuter school, but that should make it easier for it to stay open. If a student tests positive, you just tell them to stay in their off campus apartment or crash with the parents, likely living in the OC, until the virus clears.
Stanford doesn't have that type of easy solution with 95+% living on-campus, one positive result likely means 95% of the students would be at risk of getting COVID19, thanks to community spread, in days. Students can't stay on campus, and most would be unable to go home if that required air travel.
Given the CDC projection of a larger second wave for the upcoming winter, my only real question is will Stanford go online for the quarter or for the full year?
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - OutsiderFan - 04-21-2020
The NCAA would be stepping on one of the biggest PR disaster rakes in history were it to play football games with sequestered players, while students aren’t on campus.
It almost goes without saying that non-revenue sports like soccer won’t be played in cost cutting moves. Then to play football games in a transparent effort to make money off unpaid athletes, OMG...
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - cardcrimson - 04-21-2020
(04-21-2020, 05:29 PM)Farm93 Wrote: Given the CDC projection of a larger second wave for the upcoming winter
Please share where the CDC has projected a larger second wave of the virus in the fall or winter. My understanding is that the director is concerned a second wave might coincide with the peak of a typical flu season outbreak, and put a strain on the hospital system. It's not that the second wave of the virus will be more severe. . . .
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - 2006alum - 04-21-2020
(04-21-2020, 06:49 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(04-21-2020, 05:29 PM)Farm93 Wrote: Given the CDC projection of a larger second wave for the upcoming winter
Please share where the CDC has projected a larger second wave of the virus in the fall or winter. My understanding is that the director is concerned a second wave might coincide with the peak of a typical flu season outbreak, and put a strain on the hospital system. It's not that the second wave of the virus will be more severe. . . .
Ask and you shall receive:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/jtenenbaum/status/1252705967269130248?s=20[/tweet]
Quote:Even as states move ahead with plans to reopen their economies, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warned Tuesday that a second wave of the novel coronavirus will be far more dire because it is likely to coincide with the start of flu season.
“There’s a possibility that the assault of the virus on our nation next winter will actually be even more difficult than the one we just went through,” CDC Director Robert Redfield said in an interview with The Washington Post. “And when I’ve said this to others, they kind of put their head back, they don’t understand what I mean.”
Slightly different wording than "larger," but I think the underlying point is that it could be even worse, whether that be in technical number of cases or severity of outcomes.
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - cardcrimson - 04-21-2020
(04-21-2020, 06:55 PM)2006alum Wrote:(04-21-2020, 06:49 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(04-21-2020, 05:29 PM)Farm93 Wrote: Given the CDC projection of a larger second wave for the upcoming winter
Please share where the CDC has projected a larger second wave of the virus in the fall or winter. My understanding is that the director is concerned a second wave might coincide with the peak of a typical flu season outbreak, and put a strain on the hospital system. It's not that the second wave of the virus will be more severe. . . .
Ask and you shall receive:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/jtenenbaum/status/1252705967269130248?s=20[/tweet]
Quote:Even as states move ahead with plans to reopen their economies, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warned Tuesday that a second wave of the novel coronavirus will be far more dire because it is likely to coincide with the start of flu season.
“There’s a possibility that the assault of the virus on our nation next winter will actually be even more difficult than the one we just went through,” CDC Director Robert Redfield said in an interview with The Washington Post. “And when I’ve said this to others, they kind of put their head back, they don’t understand what I mean.”
Slightly different wording than "larger," but I think the underlying point is that it could be even worse, whether that be in technical number of cases or severity of outcomes.
Because it will coincide with the flu season; not because there will be more Covid cases necessarily. Thanks for illuminating my point better than I did.
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - chrisk - 04-21-2020
How College Leaders Are Planning for the Fall
(Chronicle of Higher Education)
https://www.chronicle.com/article/How-College-Leaders-Are/248554?key=wD5N8zUKkQDLHNwlH_yTVsGVGCscV_qHAkoeWgRMbisHH2vrAZHHumR8iQNIWotwWlJLOTJCQV9GWXZYVmlrZDVRQU1UUDNfRlhLMW5NbVR3bGVFbXRTU0Fzdw&fbclid=IwAR0_j-1k-GI54zzDVtrYqrfKp89l6CcRJqm_pm9G6FxwNuo68lB3pJ6JDNE
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - teejers1 - 04-22-2020
(04-21-2020, 05:26 PM)2006alum Wrote: So what happens when some student-athletes don't want to play, or have parents who threaten to sue if their children are forced to play? Will schools take away their scholarships? The optics of not allowing on-campus attendance but requiring student-athlete participation will be horrible, all the more so given the NCAA's tone-deaf approach to compensation for student-athletes. Even if there's a 1/10000 chance that a 20-year-old exposed to COVID-19 dies from it, all it will take is one ICU admission to put the kibosh on the whole thing.
1. Students who don't want to play won't play (think even you would have to admit that the vast majority of competitors want to compete - and remember, the personal risk of harm to these young, healthy adults is low);
2. And btw, minor sports participants (like soccer, wvb, etc.) also want to compete - I don't think if you asked players if they wanted to compete what the answer would be;
3. But the reason why football would be different is because without it you may not have minor sports going forward. That was the only point.
Now, it may be true that without the gate, the TV $$ wouldn't be enough to save non-revenue sports. But that would be the reason for an "exception" - and let's face it, in Covid world we are going to see lots of exceptions.
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - Farm93 - 04-22-2020
I know getting the virus can be tough, but I am less worried about getting the virus than dying from the virus.
Given death is the ultimate metric, I believe that is why that CDC Director noted the second wave could be more devastating.
It doesn't really matter though as long as it is similar in scale universities across the USA will be in a bad place.
At this point it definitely seems probable that a national university opening up in August or early September will likely get students from hot spot locations. CSUF can start a quarter with "Zoom", do a wait and see, and then have everyone go to classes mid-term because students live off campus and most are able to drive to campus from the family homes. Stanford will not enjoy those logistics benefits. If Stanford is "Zoom University 2.0" to start a quarter it will likely need to stay that way for the full quarter.
Same logic would apply for the rest of the year if there is a large second wave outbreak in November or December.
Open universities in theory could test students and faculty many times each term, but no USA state has enough capacity to test students at that level. Testing students and faculty at thousands of colleges and universities multiple times a month would mean some other populations are tested less often, or not at all. I think testing the millions of college students sounds great, but I would rather test doctors, nurses, police officers, and grocery store workers if testing is limited in any way.
A private company can acquire tests for its employees, but a university testing just its faculty and staff would probably be risking a PR problem that would last for generations.
Just map it out and becomes clear it will come down to testing capability, presumably with some form of test at home technology available to almost every citizen, for a national level college to open in 2020-2021. Oh, and that test would likely be assembled in China. Hard to see China prioritizing the USA even if an at home test kit is created, so it probably would need to be a test easily produced in the millions BEFORE early September.
I don't have a child in the class of 2024, but if I did we would be exploring Gap Year options now. The only caveat to that is if my Class of 2024 child was on the waitlist for their dream school. If they were invited I would tell them do join because this year with COVID19, a bad economy and now immigration restrictions a lot of schools may go much deeper into the waitlist than they anticipated in February. So join the waitlist and get ready to do the "Zoom University" because it might be a way to get into that school.
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - Mick - 04-22-2020
(04-21-2020, 04:11 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Fullerton is a commuter school, with only 6% living on campus. Seems like it's a lot easier for a commuter school, where kids are driving in from all over So Cal each day, to temporarily switch to online courses.
Looks like San Jose State is doing the same thing...
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Coronavirus-and-college-San-Jose-State-plans-to-15218878.php
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - JustAnotherFan - 04-22-2020
(04-22-2020, 09:52 PM)Mick Wrote:(04-21-2020, 04:11 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Fullerton is a commuter school, with only 6% living on campus. Seems like it's a lot easier for a commuter school, where kids are driving in from all over So Cal each day, to temporarily switch to online courses.
Looks like San Jose State is doing the same thing...
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Coronavirus-and-college-San-Jose-State-plans-to-15218878.php
The dominoes are about to fall. With west coast universities pulling the trigger it seems reasonable to believe that Stanford would do so before peer schools on the east coast. Also easier for Stanford to do it with the quarter system than it is for schools stuck with the semester system.
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - cardcrimson - 04-22-2020
(04-22-2020, 10:57 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:(04-22-2020, 09:52 PM)Mick Wrote:(04-21-2020, 04:11 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Fullerton is a commuter school, with only 6% living on campus. Seems like it's a lot easier for a commuter school, where kids are driving in from all over So Cal each day, to temporarily switch to online courses.
Looks like San Jose State is doing the same thing...
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Coronavirus-and-college-San-Jose-State-plans-to-15218878.php
The dominoes are about to fall. With west coast universities pulling the trigger it seems reasonable to believe that Stanford would do so before peer schools on the east coast. Also easier for Stanford to do it with the quarter system than it is for schools stuck with the semester system.
Great point. Perhaps Stanford, if they act quickly, can aspire to become the University of Phoenix. As they've be doing quality online college education for a decade, they're the ones to beat. Red socks, er Cardinal socks for all!
RE: CSU Fullerton making plans to open fall classes online - JustAnotherFan - 04-23-2020
(04-22-2020, 11:04 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(04-22-2020, 10:57 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:(04-22-2020, 09:52 PM)Mick Wrote:(04-21-2020, 04:11 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Fullerton is a commuter school, with only 6% living on campus. Seems like it's a lot easier for a commuter school, where kids are driving in from all over So Cal each day, to temporarily switch to online courses.
Looks like San Jose State is doing the same thing...
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Coronavirus-and-college-San-Jose-State-plans-to-15218878.php
The dominoes are about to fall. With west coast universities pulling the trigger it seems reasonable to believe that Stanford would do so before peer schools on the east coast. Also easier for Stanford to do it with the quarter system than it is for schools stuck with the semester system.
Great point. Perhaps Stanford, if they act quickly, can aspire to become the University of Phoenix. As they've be doing quality online college education for a decade, they're the ones to beat. Red socks, er Cardinal socks for all!
Not sure what your point is here. No one believes that turning Stanford into an online school is a good idea for anything more than getting to the other side of this pandemic with as little harm done to the university and the endowment as possible. Would you argue it makes sense to follow Harvard and Yale instead of taking the lead right now?