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OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - Printable Version

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OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - lex24 - 11-12-2020

Philip Rivers is 4 yards short of passing Marino for 5th all time passing yards.  Is there anyone out there that thinks Rivers is or ever has been a GREAT QB.  Good yes. But not great.  He will be in the HOF, I suppose.  Cause of numbers.  He’s never been in the list of the top five or six quarterbacks during the entire time he’s played that I would want running my team when it matters.

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - Phogge - 11-12-2020

He's had Keenan Allen, Gates and a few others. The team has not been consistently good on defense. If he had been with Harballs in SF they would have won a Super Bowl.

lex24 - lex24 - 11-12-2020

(11-12-2020, 05:16 PM)Phogge Wrote:  He's had Keenan Allen, Gates and a few others. The team has not been consistently good on defense. If he had been with Harballs in SF they would have won a Super Bowl.

Nah. They would have hated each other.  Plus JH can’t win the big ones. They would have won vs Baltimore if he got the play in on time.

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - Phogge - 11-12-2020

I was in the end zone. He didn't look at two open guys but instead threw to Crabtree. It's on Kaepernick.

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - BostonCard - 11-12-2020

As a San Diego Chargers fan (I could not care less about the Los Angeles Chargers), I think the characterization of good but not great is appropriate. Total yards is as much a measure of longevity as it is about greatness.  He has been hampered by playing in a relative NFL backwater (SD) and not having a great supporting cast.  If you put him on a good team, he could have led it well, though I don't think he would have made up for a mediocre team.

BC

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - BostonCard - 11-12-2020

(11-12-2020, 06:24 PM)Phogge Wrote:  I was in the end zone. He didn't look at two open guys but instead threw to Crabtree. It's on Kaepernick.

How about: Richard Sherman made a great play to defend the ball and tipped it so it could be intercepted.  The dude was a great cornerback at the peak of his career, and was step-for-step with Crabtree in single coverage and managed to make a very athletic play turned around to get his hands on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhtfaME_v0Y

BC

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - oregontim - 11-12-2020

I think it's another nod to how much the game has changed in favor of quarterbacks. They used to take beatings almost routinely. They didn't last past mid 30s.

You have to be old enough to remember the iconic picture below of Y.A Tittle in 1964, concussed, with a broken sternum. Tittle was a hero of 49er fans in the 50s and was with the NY Giants when this picture was taken. Back then, roughing the passer was about late hits, not brutal hits. There was no special protection for the head or the knees and ankles. Horrific hits were routine and not penalized unless they were two or more steps after the pass. The older ones among us might also remember Joe Theismann's broken leg, Fran Tarkenton's leg, Reggie White turning a quarterback upside down, and Joe Montana's back injury. Quarterbacks were targets. The defense intended to take them out of the game on every play.

I'm not nostalgic for those days. I think football is much better now for the increased penalties to minimize injuries. But I also think the increased protection of the quarterback lengthens careers and leads to some of the greats being surpassed by near-greats that lasted longer. Tom Brady and Drew Breeze playing into their 40s could never have happened before this decade, with the changed rules on quarterback hits.

[Image: 10tittle-obit-6-videoSixteenByNineJumbo1600.jpg]

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - Phogge - 11-12-2020

If Kaep sees the field Sherman would have made no play. Niners score and win and Harballs is still the coach.

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - Langdude - 11-13-2020

Grew up in San Diego county (though before Rivers' tenure). Absolutely love Philip Rivers; one of my all-time favorite players. Hate Chargers' ownership and what they did with his career, not to mention how they chased money and abandoned a fan base that had been ridiculously loyal to a team that produced a mediocre product a plurality of the time. No longer a Chargers fan since their move.

-m.

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - PVTree - 11-13-2020

I think Rivers was somewhere between good and great in his prime. I often picked him in fantasy football to be my QB due to accuracy on the long ball. He has such a weird release motion that it continues to surprise me how accurate he is.

He is also a gamer, playing through injuries. You can tell her hates being on the sidelines. I recall a playoff game at New England where he played badly injured (perhaps a broken Bone?), and San Diego almost pulled off the upset.

He may not be top 5 any given season, but he's top 10 many seasons and deserving of Hall of Fame entry.

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - 81alum - 11-13-2020

(11-12-2020, 08:03 PM)oregontim Wrote:  I'm not nostalgic for those days. I think football is much better now for the increased penalties to minimize injuries. But I also think the increased protection of the quarterback lengthens careers and leads to some of the greats being surpassed by near-greats that lasted longer. Tom Brady and Drew Breeze playing into their 40s could never have happened before this decade, with the changed rules on quarterback hits.
Entirely agree.  To this you can add the enormous change in pass interference rules/enforcement.  Records from earlier decades cannot be meaningfully compared with records now.  Two different games, to a more radical extent than most acknowledge.

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - Mick - 11-13-2020

(11-12-2020, 10:57 PM)Phogge Wrote:  If Kaep sees the field Sherman would have made no play. Niners score and win and Harballs is still the coach.

I think when Harbaugh shut the door in the face of the 49ers team owner Jed York after the NFC championship win, saying to York "this room is for men," pretty much sealed his fate.
(11-13-2020, 04:28 AM)PVTree Wrote:  I think Rivers was somewhere between good and great in his prime. I often picked him in fantasy football to be my QB due to accuracy on the long ball. He has such a weird release motion that it continues to surprise me how accurate he is.

He is also a gamer, playing through injuries. You can tell her hates being on the sidelines. I recall a playoff game at New England where he played badly injured (perhaps a broken Bone?), and San Diego almost pulled off the upset.

He may not be top 5 any given season, but he's top 10 many seasons and deserving of Hall of Fame entry.

Sounds strange, but I've always felt for the "Top-Ten/Not-Top-Five" athletes.  Very near the pinnacle of their respective sports, occasionally but rarely at the top.  Rivers is probably one.  Billy Casper (3 major wins) during the Nicklaus (18) /Palmer(7)/Player (9)/Watson(8)/Trevino (6)era.

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - Phogge - 11-13-2020

As Bob Costas once said, “The King Of England owes his status to nothing more than an accident of birth.” Ditto Jed York who most certainly was not a man that year.11

lex24 - lex24 - 11-13-2020

(11-13-2020, 04:28 AM)PVTree Wrote:  I think Rivers was somewhere between good and great in his prime. I often picked him in fantasy football to be my QB due to accuracy on the long ball. He has such a weird release motion that it continues to surprise me how accurate he is.

He is also a gamer, playing through injuries. You can tell her hates being on the sidelines. I recall a playoff game at New England where he played badly injured (perhaps a broken Bone?), and San Diego almost pulled off the upset.

He may not be top 5 any given season, but he's top 10 many seasons and deserving of Hall of Fame entry.

Top 10 at a position is not HOF worthy imo.
(11-13-2020, 05:35 AM)81alum Wrote:  
(11-12-2020, 08:03 PM)oregontim Wrote:  I'm not nostalgic for those days. I think football is much better now for the increased penalties to minimize injuries. But I also think the increased protection of the quarterback lengthens careers and leads to some of the greats being surpassed by near-greats that lasted longer. Tom Brady and Drew Breeze playing into their 40s could never have happened before this decade, with the changed rules on quarterback hits.
Entirely agree.  To this you can add the enormous change in pass interference rules/enforcement.  Records from earlier decades cannot be meaningfully compared with records now.  Two different games, to a more radical extent than most acknowledge.

Agree completely.  It’s been somewhat of an evolution.  First big changes were on limiting what DBs could do (no contact after 5 yards) and taking away things like the head slap from d lineman. (Remember Deacon Jones) Then allowing o-lineman to extend their arms. Then the two step rule with QB,s.Then the slide, then the no hits to QB around the legs, then the defenseless receiver rule.  Finally targeting.

Watch a game from the early 70s. It’s a different sport. When Miami won the SB in their perfect season Greise threw 7 passes.

The safety changes are necessary and good (although I think they overdo it with the QBs). Few  things I’d like to see changed :  1.  Let DBs make contact for 10 yards as long as ball not in air to that player.  2. Get rid of the “underthrown pi”. That’s when the ball is well underthrown the receiver tries to come back but the dB is in his way.  There should not be a benefit for a lousy pass (although I get that QBs do that on purpose at times. And what is the DB supposed to come? 3. College edition - no blocking downfield when ball is in air - even when pass is behind the LOS.4. College again, move in the hash marks to the pro version.

Then there is the evolution of the pass game. Remember when Al Davis was always looking for a vertical passing game. Well beginning with Sid Gilman to Bill Walsh and then moving forward today with guys like Reid and Shanahan - and the spread offenses in college etc. the passing game is much more horizontal the balls out of the quarterbacks hands almost immediately and the liberated blocking rules gives a further advantage to the offense.

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - Mick - 11-13-2020

(11-13-2020, 08:38 AM)Phogge Wrote:  As Bob Costas once said, “The King Of England owes his status to nothing more than an accident of birth.” Ditto Jed York who most certainly was not a man that year.11

Not sure what that means, but it sounds like you think it's acceptable to insult the man who signs your paycheck...pretty sure Walsh didn't say that to DeBartolo, who was the same age as York when he took over the team.

RE: lex24 - cardcrimson - 11-13-2020

(11-13-2020, 09:16 AM)lex24 Wrote:  Watch a game from the early 70s. It’s a different sport. When Miami won the SB in their perfect season Greise threw 7 passes.

Well, Garappolo threw 8 in the NFC championship game last year. . . .

RE: lex24 - teejers1 - 11-13-2020

(11-13-2020, 09:16 AM)lex24 Wrote:  
(11-13-2020, 04:28 AM)PVTree Wrote:  I think Rivers was somewhere between good and great in his prime. I often picked him in fantasy football to be my QB due to accuracy on the long ball. He has such a weird release motion that it continues to surprise me how accurate he is.

He is also a gamer, playing through injuries. You can tell her hates being on the sidelines. I recall a playoff game at New England where he played badly injured (perhaps a broken Bone?), and San Diego almost pulled off the upset.

He may not be top 5 any given season, but he's top 10 many seasons and deserving of Hall of Fame entry.

Top 10 at a position is not HOF worthy imo.
(11-13-2020, 05:35 AM)81alum Wrote:  
(11-12-2020, 08:03 PM)oregontim Wrote:  I'm not nostalgic for those days. I think football is much better now for the increased penalties to minimize injuries. But I also think the increased protection of the quarterback lengthens careers and leads to some of the greats being surpassed by near-greats that lasted longer. Tom Brady and Drew Breeze playing into their 40s could never have happened before this decade, with the changed rules on quarterback hits.
Entirely agree.  To this you can add the enormous change in pass interference rules/enforcement.  Records from earlier decades cannot be meaningfully compared with records now.  Two different games, to a more radical extent than most acknowledge.

Agree completely.  It’s been somewhat of an evolution.  First big changes were on limiting what DBs could do (no contact after 5 yards) and taking away things like the head slap from d lineman. (Remember Deacon Jones) Then allowing o-lineman to extend their arms. Then the two step rule with QB,s.Then the slide, then the no hits to QB around the legs, then the defenseless receiver rule.  Finally targeting.

Watch a game from the early 70s. It’s a different sport. When Miami won the SB in their perfect season Greise threw 7 passes.

The safety changes are necessary and good (although I think they overdo it with the QBs). Few  things I’d like to see changed :  1.  Let DBs make contact for 10 yards as long as ball not in air to that player.  2. Get rid of the “underthrown pi”. That’s when the ball is well underthrown the receiver tries to come back but the dB is in his way.  There should not be a benefit for a lousy pass (although I get that QBs do that on purpose at times. And what is the DB supposed to come? 3. College edition - no blocking downfield when ball is in air - even when pass is behind the LOS.4. College again, move in the hash marks to the pro version. 

Then there is the evolution of the pass game. Remember when Al Davis was always looking for a vertical passing game. Well beginning with Sid Gilman to Bill Walsh and then moving forward today with guys like Reid and Shanahan - and the spread offenses in college etc. the passing game is much more horizontal the balls out of the quarterbacks hands almost immediately and the liberated blocking rules gives a further  advantage to the offense.

1.  The rule change penalizing defensive players who land on the QB with full body weight at same time QB is slammed to the turf is, I believe, the #1 factor that has kept QBs on the field.  Those hits were just brutal, and often ended up in dislocated shoulders.

2.  Agree completely with San Diego Chargers fans being unduly abandoned by Spanos and team ownership.

3.  Kaep could have made the completion and Harbs could still have been unwelcome.  The guy just rubs people the wrong way . . . all the time.  People put up with it for a while, but then even good records aren't enough to keep the guy around.  I predict he quietly takes an NFL job after this season and moves on from Michigan.  Michigan will not fire him - Harbs coaches Michigan next year if he really wants to.  But Harbs has enough money (for life) that he doesn't need to put up with administrators hanging him out to dry, so to speak.  The real question is: will any NFL team hire him?  [As noted previously, I'm thinking Jets].

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - Langdude - 12-10-2020

Still totally OT, so feel free to ignore.

Apparently Philip Rivers has been playing with a "plantar plate rupture," which some described as really bad turf toe, and will require surgery in the off-season. It was suggested that lesser injuries have kept quarterbacks on the sidelines. I'd love to hear any doctor's insight on this particular injury as I am not that sort of doctor. :)

The injury did not keep him from having a great game against the under-performing Texans last week. Rivers once played a playoff game with a torn ACL. Has not missed a start in his career.

-m.

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - jonnyss - 12-10-2020

(11-12-2020, 07:42 PM)BostonCard Wrote:  
(11-12-2020, 06:24 PM)Phogge Wrote:  I was in the end zone. He didn't look at two open guys but instead threw to Crabtree. It's on Kaepernick.

How about: Richard Sherman made a great play to defend the ball and tipped it so it could be intercepted.  The dude was a great cornerback at the peak of his career, and was step-for-step with Crabtree in single coverage and managed to make a very athletic play turned around to get his hands on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhtfaME_v0Y
BC

thanks for linking the video. rewatching it, crabtree is tightly covered and there are indeed several uncovered receivers. for example, if kap looks right to freeze the defenders, #11, quinton patton is standing by the left sideline with the closest defender 10 years away and a niner receiver in-between to block.  the niners had 2 time outs, so we didn't have to throw into the end zone to a covered receiver. also, #81, anquan boldin runs free down the middle all the way to the end zone. kap has his eyes locked on crab the whole way. that makes it easy for sherman, who is well known for watching the qb carefully.

RE: OT. Stats lie. Exhibit 1 - BostonCard - 12-10-2020

Yeah, Patton would have gotten a couple of yards.  Note that there were two defenders downfield, so 85 would only have been able to block one.  It would certainly have worked as a checkdown to get 3 or 4 yards before Patton would have gone out of bounds.  Hard to say that the slot receiver (Boldin) would have been free; there was a safety deep and he was covered by the linebacker until the ball left Kapernik's hands.  All in all probably a good match-up for SF, but he was hardly "wide open".  Usually you like your best receiver in 1 on 1 coverage.

And of course, Seattle got some pressure on Kapernick; 55 had a pretty nice rush that forced the issue a bit.

BC