WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - Printable Version
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triangle2 - triangle2 - 04-19-2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QodGxD19_as
Baez87 - Baez87 - 04-19-2023
I wonder how Cori Close sees the current whirlwind of player transfers. My guess is based on this:
• all coaches want to win, some think they can win a national championship, Cori is on board for both,
• the big money for NIL is probably in the LA market, Cori could wave the prospect for fame and fortune to her potential recruits whether they be in high school or in the portal,
• Cori seems to have a plan — coach the U19, get a highly ranked set of recruits, capture the #1 ranked player in D1, steal another after recruiting her sister,
• Cori is shrewd — she developed a relationship with youthful players, infused in them the idea that, rather than going with an established team they should help build a championship, she knows that recruitment starts with player word-of-mouth,
Cori must be celebrating the portal & NIL. She seems to be working it to a T. And, if the stars align for her, she just might win it all. In any case, her team will be primed to compete with the best of the other budding teams in the Big12.
While, personally, I have never been a fan of her, it seems as though her strategy is going to work. And that has and will affect Stanford for longer than I want to imagine.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - Leftcoast - 04-19-2023
Good points and well presented, Baez.
Unfortunately all of this means my Stanford WBB fandom and enthusiasm will inevitably wane. If this is the future it tastes sour and I don't like it.
/Lefty
RE: Baez87 - cardfan1996 - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 12:26 PM)Baez87 Wrote: I wonder how Cori Close sees the current whirlwind of player transfers. My guess is based on this:
• all coaches want to win, some think they can win a national championship, Cori is on board for both,
• the big money for NIL is probably in the LA market, Cori could wave the prospect for fame and fortune to her potential recruits whether they be in high school or in the portal,
• Cori seems to have a plan — coach the U19, get a highly ranked set of recruits, capture the #1 ranked player in D1, steal another after recruiting her sister,
• Cori is shrewd — she developed a relationship with youthful players, infused in them the idea that, rather than going with an established team they should help build a championship, she knows that recruitment starts with player word-of-mouth,
Cori must be celebrating the portal & NIL. She seems to be working it to a T. And, if the stars align for her, she just might win it all. In any case, her team will be primed to compete with the best of the other budding teams in the Big12.
While, personally, I have never been a fan of her, it seems as though her strategy is going to work. And that has and will affect Stanford for longer than I want to imagine.
Cori has embraced Nil which is more than we can say about Tara but is there some uptick in money flow AND interest in WBB in Westwood specifically and the LA market generally that I am not aware of? I know with 100% certainty that she and her staff were uniquely focused on making sure Kiki Rice got her Nil opportunities because they were concerned she would leave but I am not aware this hyper focus extended to every player on the roster. It looks like Charisma will also benefit next year too. But I am skeptical until I see Londynn Jones driving around in a Tesla, then I will be a believer.
Edited to add: UCLA/USC don’t have Big 10 money yet (and that hasn’t been worked out yet how athletes will share in the TV deal) and UCLA’s athletic Dept was in the red last I heard. If a big donor was writing checks, I’d think that would be the first priority. And after football, MBB, women’s soccer (multi champion), xxx number of other sports before WBB, I wonder what type of money is left over for UCLA WBB (keep in mind, in Cori’s 12 years, UCLA has only reached the Elite 8 once and apparently never (like ever) won the PAC-12 regular season or tourney. Even I didn’t realize the latter.)
RE: Baez87 - Maple Leaf - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 12:26 PM)Baez87 Wrote: I wonder how Cori Close sees the current whirlwind of player transfers. My guess is based on this:
• all coaches want to win, some think they can win a national championship, Cori is on board for both,
• the big money for NIL is probably in the LA market, Cori could wave the prospect for fame and fortune to her potential recruits whether they be in high school or in the portal,
• Cori seems to have a plan — coach the U19, get a highly ranked set of recruits, capture the #1 ranked player in D1, steal another after recruiting her sister,
• Cori is shrewd — she developed a relationship with youthful players, infused in them the idea that, rather than going with an established team they should help build a championship, she knows that recruitment starts with player word-of-mouth,
Cori must be celebrating the portal & NIL. She seems to be working it to a T. And, if the stars align for her, she just might win it all. In any case, her team will be primed to compete with the best of the other budding teams in the Big12.
While, personally, I have never been a fan of her, it seems as though her strategy is going to work. And that has and will affect Stanford for longer than I want to imagine.
All of your points are well taken. Cori has had many talented players at UCLA in the past and with teams that were destined to complete for a Pac 12 championship, but came up short, some of her better talented teams had to complete with Oregon's juggernaut from a few years ago, but even then UCLA still underperformed, and there were many times where Tara out coached her. It will be very interesting to see how UCLA does next year.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - 81alum - 04-19-2023
Stanford average home attendance for WBB last season: 4106
Utah average home attendance for WBB last season: 3628
Arizona average home attendance for WBB last season: 7679
Oregon average home attendance for WBB last season: 5658
USC average home attendance for WBB last season: 1037
UCLA average home attendance for WBB last season: 1103.
It does not appear that there is some sort of upsurge of interest for WBB in southern California.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - cardfan1996 - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 02:09 PM)81alum Wrote: Stanford average home attendance for WBB last season: 4106
Utah average home attendance for WBB last season: 3628
Arizona average home attendance for WBB last season: 7679
Oregon average home attendance for WBB last season: 5658
USC average home attendance for WBB last season: 1037
UCLA average home attendance for WBB last season: 1103.
It does not appear that there is some sort of upsurge of interest in WBB in southern California.
Then it’s like it was when I was there awhile back. You can sleep on a different row at Galen and Pauley Pavilion every quarter and not be bothered or encounter another group of fans. It took the Sparks winning a championship to even get anyone mildly interested in WBB. And Candace Parker still needed a second and third job nearly every year she played for the Sparks. Nneka keeps herself busy with the player’s association and various speaking engagements. And no one currently in Westwood has ever been as talented and phenomenal as Lisa Leslie, Parker, Nneka, Chelsea Gray, Kristi Toliver, Alana Beard and they still weren’t selling out the Staples Center regularly or at all.
LA is a tough tough market for WBB guys. I am sure they break their necks marketing way more than Stanford and it doesn’t seem to make a difference in terms of attendance. LA loves the “appearance of money” so maybe someone is earning funny money. Welp best of luck I guess.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - 81alum - 04-19-2023
PS, given the likes of Endyia Rogers, Sedona Prince, Destiny Slocum, Jade Lovillle, etc. I think the odds are very high that a player who leaves a premier program for a better situation will keep shopping and transfer more than once. UCLA had better not get too smug.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - chimera - 04-19-2023
I am not on the Close train. She is not a terrible coach. She has gotten better over time. I'd call her decent but not exceptional. She recruits well. She has also wasted more talent with fewer great results than pretty much any coach I can think of. Her teams have consistently underperformed talent level during her time at UCLA. For all the criticism of Tara on here lately, Stanford teams have done way better than UCLA teams since Close became coach there, and the talent level differential has not been big and sometimes has favored the Bruins. Think of the talent that has passed through UCLA and never made it deep into the NCAAs or ended up a top 10 team. How many F4s has Stanford been to since Close became head coach at UCLA? Rag on Tara all you want, and this season she maybe earned some of it (but not close to what I see on here), but she has consistently been a better coach than Close. Scoreboard over time speaks.
All that said, I think it is getting time for a change for Stanford. Things won't get easier unless and until there are some rules that tame the wild west of the portal and NIL. The more I know about the attitudes of college players toward their sport and their team, and that includes Stanford, the less I am inclined to support college sports. When there is no true commitment by anyone to a team (to coaches it is a job and now to players it is a job too) why should fans be committed? Everyone is in it purely for themselves, so am I as a fan. I am no longer obligated to forgive the foibles of "my" team or any athlete. It is all a business. Social media and building a brand is the thing. Treat the game and the players accordingly.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - BillBradley - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 02:21 PM)81alum Wrote: PS, given the likes of Endyia Rogers, Sedona Prince, Destiny Slocum, Jade Lovillle, etc. I think the odds are very high that a player who leaves a premier program for a better situation will keep shopping and transfer more than once. UCLA had better not get too smug.Sedona Prince - now there's an interesting NIL story. Anyone venture to guess how much she makes per year? $500K (as of Sep '22), who knows how much now. Plus, she's inking equity deals, not just cash. And now she's going to TCU where she plans on using both her years of eligibility to basically play some hoop and hit the Dallas market.
"With her former coach at the helm of TCU’s program and the DFW market providing a brobdingnagian potential NIL platform for Prince, the move makes sense."
https://collegesportswire.usatoday.com/2023/04/12/sedona-prince-oregon-tcu-womens-college-basketball-transfer-portal/
Here's what interesting.... 81alum, 1996, et al - I totally get and agree what you're saying about UCLA hoops attendance and interest in womens basketball. But that's not what this is about for many of today's top players. TCU's womens basktball attendance is around 1,000 per game. It's an echo chamber in there. But Prince is going there because she wants to move to a big market and play for a coach and school that will support her in her NIL activities. This from a player who has basically played 2 years of inconsequential basketball averaging 10 pts and 3 rebounds per game. Hoops is like a side activity that she's using to build her brand and image. Oregon got her Wasserman. She's an activist. That's the most important thing to her. She could have stayed at Oregon and had more playing time than she could handle.
It's way different on the men's side where even a journeyman career can net you millions in the pros. On the women's side, it's tough to find a better hoops success story than Lexie Hull. Her next year WNBA contract, for a first round pick, assuming she sticks, will get her $70K. Are these top players really motivated by the WNBA?
These players are all different. They have to want and pursue these NIL opportunities for their own reasons and really, many don't care. Hannah Jump doesn't. Lexie didn't. Cam does. Haley does. Fran tried, but in the end decided to become a doctor (clap clap!). But these top recruits - many do care, because they see the players ahead of them doing it and having success so why not use their leverage to get in on the action? Kiki Rice certainly cares. Betts? I think so. That's just my read. Guess we'll see.
I also think these stories can be looked at like success stories and not as "sell outs". Sedona Prince is going to graduate a multi-millionaire from TCU with tons of career opportunities ahead of her. It's not the way it was written back in the Title IX days, but hey - I'm tipping my hat.
p.s. T2 - love the All the President's Men / follow the money post!
(04-19-2023, 02:51 PM)chimera Wrote: I am not on the Close train. She is not a terrible coach. She has gotten better over time. I'd call her decent but not exceptional. She recruits well. She has also wasted more talent with fewer great results than pretty much any coach I can think of. Her teams have consistently underperformed talent level during her time at UCLA. For all the criticism of Tara on here lately, Stanford teams have done way better than UCLA teams since Close became coach there, and the talent level differential has not been big and sometimes has favored the Bruins. Think of the talent that has passed through UCLA and never made it deep into the NCAAs or ended up a top 10 team. How many F4s has Stanford been to since Close became head coach at UCLA? Rag on Tara all you want, and this season she maybe earned some of it (but not close to what I see on here), but she has consistently been a better coach than Close. Scoreboard over time speaks.Totally agree with this Chimera. Close is a better recruiter, but that's only one part of the equation. Tara's body of work is way better.
All that said, I think it is getting time for a change for Stanford. Things won't get easier unless and until there are some rules that tame the wild west of the portal and NIL. The more I know about the attitudes of college players toward their sport and their team, and that includes Stanford, the less I am inclined to support college sports. When there is no true commitment by anyone to a team (to coaches it is a job and now to players it is a job too) why should fans be committed? Everyone is in it purely for themselves, so am I as a fan. I am no longer obligated to forgive the foibles of "my" team or any athlete. It is all a business. Social media and building a brand is the thing. Treat the game and the players accordingly.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - cardfan1996 - 04-19-2023
Tara is 70 years old and has had a good run but you can also stay too long and damage a program for years. We saw that at several legendary programs that lost a legend (Tennessee) or a legend that took forever to step down (Rutgers). She has a good off ramp now with the changing landscape of college sports. Take it. But please not in favor of Kate. Muir can choose not to be lazy and get a really talented Xs and Os person with WNBA coaching pedigree.
Everyone can see I absolutely despise Cori Close but I can be impartial even though I don’t like someone. I think she was a better coach than Tara this year, integrated her players better, had offensive and defensive schemes that made sense and overall her players got better from November to March. Rice, Jones, Bessoir, Sontag, etc. Charisma was playing injured but looked like a First Team All American pre-injury. The only player that got better from November to March for Stanford was ironically Betts. Cam was already phenomenal defensively but never surpassed her offensive performance vs. S. Carolina in November. She may have equaled it but never surpassed it. Players only have 4 years to improve and no time for Tara to have an underachieving season with 8 McDonald’s AAs on the roster. She took a Cadillac that should have been in a Final Four based on talent and drove it off a cliff.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - Jskass - 04-19-2023
Yeah business is business but this is getting tougher re: fan loyalty. Prior to this year's portal, when at the Seattle regionals we bumped into Kevin McGuff at Pike Place Market. Friends we were with wondered how I recognized him - former UW Coach pre- THE OSU. Then watching them play and friend wondered how I knew of Taylor Mikesell's game (OU after MD and before TOSU). And can hardly wait to see this all multiplying.
Agree on Close. Has had amazing talent and underperformed - consistently. So for her, the recruiting and transfer portal may be her lifeline to continue coaching another 10 years.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - cardfan1996 - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 03:24 PM)BillBradley Wrote:(04-19-2023, 02:21 PM)81alum Wrote: PS, given the likes of Endyia Rogers, Sedona Prince, Destiny Slocum, Jade Lovillle, etc. I think the odds are very high that a player who leaves a premier program for a better situation will keep shopping and transfer more than once. UCLA had better not get too smug.Sedona Prince - now there's an interesting NIL story. Anyone venture to guess how much she makes per year? $500K (as of Sep '22), who knows how much now. Plus, she's inking equity deals, not just cash. And now she's going to TCU where she plans on using both her years of eligibility to basically play some hoop and hit the Dallas market.
"With her former coach at the helm of TCU’s program and the DFW market providing a of immense proportions potential NIL platform for Prince, the move makes sense."
https://collegesportswire.usatoday.com/2023/04/12/sedona-prince-oregon-tcu-womens-college-basketball-transfer-portal/
Here's what interesting.... 81alum, 1996, et al - I totally get and agree what you're saying about UCLA hoops attendance and interest in womens basketball. But that's not what this is about for many of today's top players. TCU's womens basktball attendance is around 1,000 per game. It's an echo chamber in there. But Prince is going there because she wants to move to a big market and play for a coach and school that will support her in her NIL activities. This from a player who has basically played 2 years of inconsequential basketball averaging 10 pts and 3 rebounds per game. Hoops is like a side activity that she's using to build her brand and image. Oregon got her Wasserman. She's an activist. That's the most important thing to her. She could have stayed at Oregon and had more playing time than she could handle.
It's way different on the men's side where even a journeyman career can net you millions in the pros. On the women's side, it's tough to find a better hoops success story than Lexie Hull. Her next year WNBA contract, for a first round pick, assuming she sticks, will get her $70K. Are these top players really motivated by the WNBA?
These players are all different. They have to want and pursue these NIL opportunities for their own reasons and really, many don't care. Hannah Jump doesn't. Lexie didn't. Cam does. Haley does. Fran tried, but in the end decided to become a doctor (clap clap!). But these top recruits - many do care, because they see the players ahead of them doing it and having success so why not use their leverage to get in on the action? Kiki Rice certainly cares. Betts? I think so. That's just my read. Guess we'll see.
I also think these stories can be looked at like success stories and not as "sell outs". Sedona Prince is going to graduate a multi-millionaire from TCU with tons of career opportunities ahead of her. It's not the way it was written back in the Title IX days, but hey - I'm tipping my hat.
p.s. T2 - love the All the President's Men / follow the money post!
(04-19-2023, 02:51 PM)chimera Wrote: I am not on the Close train. She is not a terrible coach. She has gotten better over time. I'd call her decent but not exceptional. She recruits well. She has also wasted more talent with fewer great results than pretty much any coach I can think of. Her teams have consistently underperformed talent level during her time at UCLA. For all the criticism of Tara on here lately, Stanford teams have done way better than UCLA teams since Close became coach there, and the talent level differential has not been big and sometimes has favored the Bruins. Think of the talent that has passed through UCLA and never made it deep into the NCAAs or ended up a top 10 team. How many F4s has Stanford been to since Close became head coach at UCLA? Rag on Tara all you want, and this season she maybe earned some of it (but not close to what I see on here), but she has consistently been a better coach than Close. Scoreboard over time speaks.Totally agree with this Chimera. Close is a better recruiter, but that's only one part of the equation. Tara's body of work is way better.
All that said, I think it is getting time for a change for Stanford. Things won't get easier unless and until there are some rules that tame the wild west of the portal and NIL. The more I know about the attitudes of college players toward their sport and their team, and that includes Stanford, the less I am inclined to support college sports. When there is no true commitment by anyone to a team (to coaches it is a job and now to players it is a job too) why should fans be committed? Everyone is in it purely for themselves, so am I as a fan. I am no longer obligated to forgive the foibles of "my" team or any athlete. It is all a business. Social media and building a brand is the thing. Treat the game and the players accordingly.
To me, there is no rhyme or reason but there are clearly two categories. Category 1 are “influencers” - people who have amassed a large following on social media but are not at the top of their sport. You said Prince gets paid $500k and I think she is at best a mediocre bball player but through luck went viral piggybacking off an issue our strength and conditioning coach first brought to light. Or someone like the Cavinder twins who were apparently the highest paid bball players at over $2M but quit after one season at Miami because being pros and bypassing Nil rules altogether will be more lucrative.
Category 2 are the truly gifted players that are also marketable like Clark, Buekers, Azzi, HVL and Brink, etc. I don’t think all these players are paid the same and it’s likely they are the only one on their team or in their conference seeing the type of money Category 1 players have.
So what happens to everyone else? That is the question Geno asked last year. If you get beyond the cockiness, the guy is very insightful and keeps evolving and he sees things before everyone else does. This was over a year ago. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_XA6y8XzuZs&pp=ygURR2VubyBhdXJpZW1tYSBuaWw%3D
Maybe the 3rd Category is called “Nickel and Dimers” and that is everyone else playing musical chairs for nickels and dimes
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - BillBradley - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 03:56 PM)cardfan1996 Wrote: To me, there is no rhyme or reason but there are clearly two categories. Category 1 are “influencers” - people who have amassed a large following on social media but are not at the top of their sport. You said Prince gets paid $500k and I think she is at best a mediocre bball player but through luck went viral piggybacking off an issue our strength and conditioning coach first brought to light. Or someone like the Cavinder twins who were apparently the highest paid bball players at over $2M but quit after one season at Miami because being pros and bypassing Nil rules altogether will be more lucrative.I think those categories are a pretty good way to look at it. And agree, Geno knows what he's doing. My only small edit would be that the "there's only a couple NIL players on each team" comment might have been accurate a year ago, but it's changed a lot since then. Today, I think there are some leading-edge programs where more than the top couple make a bunch (and the dollar figure is way higher than a year ago) and most of the team is getting something. I wonder where UConn falls in that mix today?
Category 2 are the truly gifted players that are also marketable like Clark, Buekers, Azzi, HVL and Brink, etc. I don’t think all these players are paid the same and it’s likely they are the only one on their team or in their conference seeing the type of money Category 1 players have.
So what happens to everyone else? That is the question Geno asked last year. If you get beyond the cockiness, the guy is very insightful and keeps evolving and he sees things before everyone else does. This was over a year ago. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_XA6y8XzuZs&pp=ygURR2VubyBhdXJpZW1tYSBuaWw%3D
The more I learn about the numbers and the more I understand the earning potential for these players... are we going to see the 2024 WNBA draft bereft of Brink, Bueckers, Reese, Van Lith and Clark? Why would any of them sign for the $75K and go to the WNBA, when they could all take their extra year? I guess Reese and Van Lith might be in a different position because they've already used their free transfer, but Bueckers, Brink, and Clark could all transfer. Man what a splash it would make for, say, Brink and Clark to transfer together to a college in a large market and form a superteam. They would make some serious coin! I just threw up a little...
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - chimera - 04-19-2023
I don't get the don't go pro, you will lose NIL money idea for top players. If Clark goes pro, she can still get endorsements. She can probably get even more of them and would have more time for them without school. Her Iowa fans will still follow her and a bunch of new fans will see her play for their team as a pro. Top pros get a lot of money for endorsements, which is what NIL is. It may make sense for a player who will be a marginal pro or cut and never make the league to stay in school and get whatever NIL money she can, since she probably won't attract many endorsements after school. Then again, a player who will be a marginal pro probably is not pulling down a lot of NIL money in college unless she is a social media whiz, and if that is so, she can continue to be a social media whiz after school too and devote even more time to doing that. Or get a "real" job and keep doing the influencer thing. There are plenty of people who make money just by being social media influencers.
So I don't get this whole don't go pro, you only get your salary idea - in theory someone who is a good NIL candidate is also a good candidate for endorsements as a pro. Salary plus endorsements for a top pro should be > NIL for a college player. How much has let's say Candace Parker made in endorsements in the past few years or over her career? Also, WNBA salary goes up as your career continues. Not going pro you may have one fewer year in you as a player. The one year salary you won't get is the one at the top of the scale, not the rookie salary.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - cardfan1996 - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 05:07 PM)BillBradley Wrote:(04-19-2023, 03:56 PM)cardfan1996 Wrote: To me, there is no rhyme or reason but there are clearly two categories. Category 1 are “influencers” - people who have amassed a large following on social media but are not at the top of their sport. You said Prince gets paid $500k and I think she is at best a mediocre bball player but through luck went viral piggybacking off an issue our strength and conditioning coach first brought to light. Or someone like the Cavinder twins who were apparently the highest paid bball players at over $2M but quit after one season at Miami because being pros and bypassing Nil rules altogether will be more lucrative.I think those categories are a pretty good way to look at it. And agree, Geno knows what he's doing. My only small edit would be that the "there's only a couple NIL players on each team" comment might have been accurate a year ago, but it's changed a lot since then. Today, I think there are some leading-edge programs where more than the top couple make a bunch (and the dollar figure is way higher than a year ago) and most of the team is getting something. I wonder where UConn falls in that mix today?
Category 2 are the truly gifted players that are also marketable like Clark, Buekers, Azzi, HVL and Brink, etc. I don’t think all these players are paid the same and it’s likely they are the only one on their team or in their conference seeing the type of money Category 1 players have.
So what happens to everyone else? That is the question Geno asked last year. If you get beyond the cockiness, the guy is very insightful and keeps evolving and he sees things before everyone else does. This was over a year ago. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_XA6y8XzuZs&pp=ygURR2VubyBhdXJpZW1tYSBuaWw%3D
The more I learn about the numbers and the more I understand the earning potential for these players... are we going to see the 2024 WNBA draft bereft of Brink, Bueckers, Reese, Van Lith and Clark? Why would any of them sign for the $75K and go to the WNBA, when they could all take their extra year? I guess Reese and Van Lith might be in a different position because they've already used their free transfer, but Bueckers, Brink, and Clark could all transfer. Man what a splash it would make for, say, Brink and Clark to transfer together to a college in a large market and form a superteam. They would make some serious coin! I just threw up a little...
I’d like to be educated a bit more. National endorsements will follow the player to the pros. Otherwise, it would make no economic sense for players like Boston, Cooke, and even Haley to go pro this year. The WNBA is just a prestigious summer gig; the real money is overseas. And I would think you can then secure international endorsements if you are like Breanna Stewart or Plum in those other geos where WBB has been popular for the last 20 or more years unlike the U.S. I am also assuming you are not referring to the money distributed from the “Nil collectives.” So I think you are talking about Category 1 players, or influencers, and again that market is pretty saturated. Most influencers really engage their very strange and inappropriate audiences every day, have Q&A sessions and really interact and show their everyday life. That is not going to work for most players - either the audience won’t be interested in them or they won’t be interested in the audience. I mean, who could have predicted Prince would take off and gain a following in early 2021? No one. A lot of it is pure luck. But maybe not. I’d like to know what you know. Wouldn’t their following also follow them to the pros or want to hear about their travels in Europe as a pro?
Taurasi and Griner were making at least $1 million a year in Russia. Of course that market is gone but other geos like China and Turkey pay well.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - BillBradley - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 05:22 PM)chimera Wrote: I don't get the don't go pro, you will lose NIL money idea for top players. If Clark goes pro, she can still get endorsements. She can probably get even more of them and would have more time for them without school. Her Iowa fans will still follow her and a bunch of new fans will see her play for their team as a pro. Top pros get a lot of money for endorsements, which is what NIL is. It may make sense for a player who will be a marginal pro or cut and never make the league to stay in school and get whatever NIL money she can, since she probably won't attract many endorsements after school. Then again, a player who will be a marginal pro probably is not pulling down a lot of NIL money in college unless she is a social media whiz, and if that is so, she can continue to be a social media whiz after school too and devote even more time to doing that. Or get a "real" job and keep doing the influencer thing. There are plenty of people who make money just by being social media influencers.Yes, good points. Here's what I can think of:
So I don't get this whole don't go pro, you only get your salary idea - in theory someone who is a good NIL candidate is also a good candidate for endorsements as a pro. Salary plus endorsements for a top pro should be > NIL for a college player. How much has let's say Candace Parker made in endorsements in the past few years or over her career? Also, WNBA salary goes up as your career continues. Not going pro you may have one fewer year in you as a player. The one year salary you won't get is the one at the top of the scale, not the rookie salary.
1) Some NIL deals are tied to the school as put together by the local collectives. You leave the school, you lose your deal. I bet Angel Reese got some sort of lucrative deal put together by the LSU collective to get her there in the first place. And perhaps UCLA has something in place for Charisma Osbourne and that's why she's staying for her 5th year. Don't really know for sure.
2) Some deals are local and therefore only make sense if you are in that market. If you go to the draft, you are most likely headed to a different city and any local deals go away. Drew Timme made lots of money doing local promotion in Spokane.
3) I think the biggest reason for the top stars is their exposure. The WNBA is just not very popular in many of its markets. I still like to watch Lexie play and, granted Indiana is the worst in the league, but she plays in front of way fewer fans at home and on TV than at her Stanford games. It's awful. There's no guarantee a player would increase their following or improve their brand awareness if they went to the WNBA and there's no guarantee of lucrative endorsements. Arike Ogunbowale might be a good comparison. She obviously played before NIL was a thing in college. But when she played at Notre Dame, she was a big name star and won Notre Dame a natty. She was constantly on SportsCenter, really an amazing college player. Does anyone even hear about her anymore? Hardly. I somewhat follow the WNBA but couldn't even tell you what team she plays on. I just looked her up - she's doing really well for the Dallas team. But I would be really surprised if she's swimming in endorsements. But for Clark, Bueckers, Brink, etc. transferring to certain colleges pretty much guarantees exposure, publicity, and increased following. Brink would blow up if she transferred to <LSU, UConn, Tennesee, etc>. She could pick up hundreds of thousands of followers to add to her base, let alone what the schools would pay for her to come. Or, she could pass on that opportunity and instead go to the WNBA and very likely become less popular.
BTW, there's only one more year of this 5 year eligibility nonsense. After next year, players go back to only having 4 years of eligibility.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - BillBradley - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 06:22 PM)cardfan1996 Wrote:I think there's a ton of nuance here in this "influencer" space. And by no means am I an expert! From what I've seen, some have followings because of their interaction with their fans. But most combine their personality with things like fashion. This is where Cam is headed (and Cavenders and others). Just look on her Instagram and you can see all the endorsing she does. Does that change when she leaves college and goes to the WNBA? Yes, I think it does. See more in my post to Chimera along the same lines, but the WNBA is just not that popular. It might have some prestige to it, but it is not popular. Then there's other influencers that are "trying to change the world". That's the Sedona Princes of the world, and Cam does some meaningful stuff sharing her story and helping others with mental health issues. Another one is the creation of their future in broadcasting, which is where Haley wants to go (a la Chiney, Candace Parker, etc.). From what I can tell, she cares way more about her podcast than her fashion stuff.(04-19-2023, 05:07 PM)BillBradley Wrote:(04-19-2023, 03:56 PM)cardfan1996 Wrote: To me, there is no rhyme or reason but there are clearly two categories. Category 1 are “influencers” - people who have amassed a large following on social media but are not at the top of their sport. You said Prince gets paid $500k and I think she is at best a mediocre bball player but through luck went viral piggybacking off an issue our strength and conditioning coach first brought to light. Or someone like the Cavinder twins who were apparently the highest paid bball players at over $2M but quit after one season at Miami because being pros and bypassing Nil rules altogether will be more lucrative.I think those categories are a pretty good way to look at it. And agree, Geno knows what he's doing. My only small edit would be that the "there's only a couple NIL players on each team" comment might have been accurate a year ago, but it's changed a lot since then. Today, I think there are some leading-edge programs where more than the top couple make a bunch (and the dollar figure is way higher than a year ago) and most of the team is getting something. I wonder where UConn falls in that mix today?
Category 2 are the truly gifted players that are also marketable like Clark, Buekers, Azzi, HVL and Brink, etc. I don’t think all these players are paid the same and it’s likely they are the only one on their team or in their conference seeing the type of money Category 1 players have.
So what happens to everyone else? That is the question Geno asked last year. If you get beyond the cockiness, the guy is very insightful and keeps evolving and he sees things before everyone else does. This was over a year ago. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_XA6y8XzuZs&pp=ygURR2VubyBhdXJpZW1tYSBuaWw%3D
The more I learn about the numbers and the more I understand the earning potential for these players... are we going to see the 2024 WNBA draft bereft of Brink, Bueckers, Reese, Van Lith and Clark? Why would any of them sign for the $75K and go to the WNBA, when they could all take their extra year? I guess Reese and Van Lith might be in a different position because they've already used their free transfer, but Bueckers, Brink, and Clark could all transfer. Man what a splash it would make for, say, Brink and Clark to transfer together to a college in a large market and form a superteam. They would make some serious coin! I just threw up a little...
I’d like to be educated a bit more. National endorsements will follow the player to the pros. Otherwise, it would make no economic sense for players like Boston, Cooke, and even Haley to go pro this year. The WNBA is just a prestigious summer gig; the real money is overseas. And I would think you can then secure international endorsements if you are like Breanna Stewart or Plum in those other geos where WBB has been popular for the last 20 or more years unlike the U.S. I am also assuming you are not referring to the money distributed from the “Nil collectives.” So I think you are talking about Category 1 players, or influencers, and again that market is pretty saturated. Most influencers really engage their very strange and inappropriate audiences every day, have Q&A sessions and really interact and show their everyday life. That is not going to work for most players - either the audience won’t be interested in them or they won’t be interested in the audience. I mean, who could have predicted Prince would take off and gain a following in early 2021? No one. A lot of it is pure luck. But maybe not. I’d like to know what you know. Wouldn’t their following also follow them to the pros or want to hear about their travels in Europe as a pro?
Taurasi and Griner were making at least $1 million a year in Russia. Of course that market is gone but other geos like China and Turkey pay well.
As for the international scene, I don't know much there. Just don't follow it enough to know.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - chimera - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 06:25 PM)BillBradley Wrote:(04-19-2023, 05:22 PM)chimera Wrote: I don't get the don't go pro, you will lose NIL money idea for top players. If Clark goes pro, she can still get endorsements. She can probably get even more of them and would have more time for them without school. Her Iowa fans will still follow her and a bunch of new fans will see her play for their team as a pro. Top pros get a lot of money for endorsements, which is what NIL is. It may make sense for a player who will be a marginal pro or cut and never make the league to stay in school and get whatever NIL money she can, since she probably won't attract many endorsements after school. Then again, a player who will be a marginal pro probably is not pulling down a lot of NIL money in college unless she is a social media whiz, and if that is so, she can continue to be a social media whiz after school too and devote even more time to doing that. Or get a "real" job and keep doing the influencer thing. There are plenty of people who make money just by being social media influencers.Yes, good points. Here's what I can think of:
So I don't get this whole don't go pro, you only get your salary idea - in theory someone who is a good NIL candidate is also a good candidate for endorsements as a pro. Salary plus endorsements for a top pro should be > NIL for a college player. How much has let's say Candace Parker made in endorsements in the past few years or over her career? Also, WNBA salary goes up as your career continues. Not going pro you may have one fewer year in you as a player. The one year salary you won't get is the one at the top of the scale, not the rookie salary.
1) Some NIL deals are tied to the school as put together by the local collectives. You leave the school, you lose your deal. I bet Angel Reese got some sort of lucrative deal put together by the LSU collective to get her there in the first place. And perhaps UCLA has something in place for Charisma Osbourne and that's why she's staying for her 5th year. Don't really know for sure.
2) Some deals are local and therefore only make sense if you are in that market. If you go to the draft, you are most likely headed to a different city and any local deals go away. Drew Timme made lots of money doing local promotion in Spokane.
3) I think the biggest reason for the top stars is their exposure. The WNBA is just not very popular in many of its markets. I still like to watch Lexie play and, granted Indiana is the worst in the league, but she plays in front of way fewer fans at home and on TV than at her Stanford games. It's awful. There's no guarantee a player would increase their following or improve their brand awareness if they went to the WNBA and there's no guarantee of lucrative endorsements. Arike Ogunbowale might be a good comparison. She obviously played before NIL was a thing in college. But when she played at Notre Dame, she was a big name star and won Notre Dame a natty. She was constantly on SportsCenter, really an amazing college player. Does anyone even hear about her anymore? Hardly. I somewhat follow the WNBA but couldn't even tell you what team she plays on. I just looked her up - she's doing really well for the Dallas team. But I would be really surprised if she's swimming in endorsements. But for Clark, Bueckers, Brink, etc. transferring to certain colleges pretty much guarantees exposure, publicity, and increased following. Brink would blow up if she transferred to <LSU, UConn, Tennesee, etc>. She could pick up hundreds of thousands of followers to add to her base, let alone what the schools would pay for her to come. Or, she could pass on that opportunity and instead go to the WNBA and very likely become less popular.
BTW, there's only one more year of this 5 year eligibility nonsense. After next year, players go back to only having 4 years of eligibility.
!. How much do WBB players get from collectives? I can't imagine the vast majority get over five figures, most probably less than that. If that is not correct and they get a lot more, I understand staying. I just can't see who would pony up a lot of money for player #6 or 8 on a team, even a top team.
2. The local angle makes sense. But again, that is for the big stars. Timme is a nationally known name if you follow MCBB. I don't really follow the sport and I know who he is, for instance. How much do the others on his team who are not stars get from local businesses? MBB and WBB is also not the same, money-wise.
3. I can get with the idea college at a place like LSU or UConn may give more exposure than some WNBA teams. I did a brief poke around Google and a story said Candace Parker made about 3 million in endorsements in 2022. I'm sure the younger, lesser known stars like Arike Ogunbowale make less. I saw she had some big endorsement deals but how big? Don't know. I think the main point stands - the big stars will do fine in the pros. Can't stay in college forever. I hate the 5th year thing. Glad it will be over after next season.
RE: WBB: Lauren Betts and Agnes Emma-Nnopu in Transfer Portal - joemontes - 04-19-2023
Living parttime in LA, I'm already excited about BETTS playing for UCLA. Looking forward to her
head-to-head encounter with BRINK next season.
With 6'7 BETTS as their most likely starting center, 6'4 French BESSOIR will most likely be
the starting PF. 6'3 German SONTAG will be the back-up PF, while 6'3 IWUALA and 6'4 MUSE
will be the back-up centers. 6'4 DUGALIC (who missed last season and barely played
the season before) will also be there. On the other hand, I don't see 6'4 Australian ANSTLEY
get playing time.
That's a logjam of players at the 4/5, so Coach CLOSE can afford some of them
to enter the transfer portal:
PF - SONTAG 6'3 (entering So, 3 years eligibility left)
PF - BESSOIR 6'4 (entering RS Jr, 3 years eligibility left)
PF/CC - DUGALIC 6'4 (entering RS Jr, 3 years eligibility left)
CC - BETTS 6'7 (entering So, 3 years eligibility left)
CC - IWUALA 6'3 (entering So, 3 years eligibility left)
CC - MUSE 6'4 (entering Fr, 4 years eligibility left)
CC - ANSTLEY 6'4 (entering Jr, 3 years eligibility left)
They are lacking players at the 1/2/3 with their current returnees:
SF - JACQUEZ 6'0 (entering So, 3 years eligibility left)
SF - BROWN 6'1 (Graduate)
SG - OSBORNE (Graduate)
SG/PG - RICE 5'11 (So, 3 years eligibility left)
SG/PG - JONES 5'5 (So, 3 years eligibility left)
They will most likely snag a player or two to beef up
their 1/2/3.