WSU Game Thread - Printable Version
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RE: WSU Game Thread - Austroturf - 10-18-2021
(10-18-2021, 02:54 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(10-18-2021, 12:26 PM)Austroturf Wrote: Here is the Stanford list:
1) Mike Bloomgren, 2013-2017, the only Shaw hire to land an HC job at an FBS school (HC Rice).
2) Tavita Pritchard, 2018-2021, former QB coach at Stanford.
A few other former Stanford coaches under Shaw who went on to become HC:
Derek Mason (2010-2013), who left to coach Vanderbilt. He was originally hired by Harbaugh as DB coach, and then promoted to co-DC by Shaw in 2011, and sole DC in 2012.
Mike Sanford Jr (2011-2013) who eventually became head coach at Western Kentucky (via Boise State and Notre Dame OC stints)
Brian Polian (2010-2011), who eventually became head coach at Nevada (via a stint at Texas A&M as special teams coach); also originally hired by Harbaugh.
A few others who have come and gone:
Pep Hamilton OC 2011-2012 - left Stanford to become OC for the Indianapolis Colts
Jason Tarver co-DC and LB coach 2011 - left Stanford to become DC for the Raiders
Peter Hansen 2014-19 ILB coach - left Stanford to become ILB/DC for UNLV (which might have resulted in addition by subtraction)
Kevin Carberry 2018-20 OL coach - left Stanford to become OL coach for the LA Rams
Lance Taylor 2014-16 RB coach - left Stanford to become RB coach at the North Carolina Panthers
I get your point that for a coach of Shaw's tenure, few of his assistants have gone onto become head coach, and he has favored continuity, probably too much. While I do think that there is a strong case for making some changes in the staff, and for Shaw to look to bring in new assistants in places where we have struggled, turnover per se isn't a good thing, and lack of continuity impedes player development, as they have to adjust to new schemes, methods, etc. Shaw is probably an extreme outlier on the continuity end of the spectrum, to the detriment of the coaching, but it's not as simple as just changing things around for the sake of change.
BC
My point is more about the caliber of coordinator/assistant. Harbaugh's staff moved rather seamlessly to larger roles and represented a clear level higher than anyone Shaw has hired. Fangio, Taggart, Shaw himself, Pep Hamilton, Derek Mason, Polian. When all of these coaches left, Shaw replaced them with clear downgrades in caliber and potential. At OC alone, there was the shift from Pep Hamilton to Mike Boomgren to Tavita Pritchard. Seriously? And at DC: Fangio to Mason to Anderson (Mason was an excellent DC and was no downgrade to Fangio, but he was hired by Harbaugh). I hate to be nasty, but when the conversation comes up about top-flight coordinators at the FBS level, it is highly unlikely that the names Pritchard and Anderson are ever mentioned.
If Shaw cares about the Stanford football program, he should be trying to attract coordinators that could potentially be his successor, just as Harbaugh did. Yes, Harbaugh hired a dude named David Shaw who eventually succeeded him. Shaw has been totally delinquent in this department, and it is a worrying sign. Do you see anyone in Shaw's staff who could be his successor? I don't. Harbaugh had at least three (Fangio, Taggart and Shaw), and a case could be made for Mason and Polian, as well, but probably not without a developmental step in between.
Thanks for the info on Mike Sanford. I guess he joins Mike Bloomgren as one of only two Shaw hires that have ever acceded to HC jobs at FBS programs. Didn't last long for Sanford, though, as he is now OC at Minnesota (after being OC at Utah State). Let's see how long Mike Bloomgren holds out: HC at Rice is a tough slog. I wish him all the best. Derek Mason also found his Waterloo at Vanderbilt. Hope he bounces back at Auburn.
RE: WSU Game Thread - gailtate - 10-18-2021
1. Recruiting
2. Recruiting
3. Recruiting
This, in order of importance and priority, is the core of football success. The elite teams, needless to say, do it the most efficiently and relentlessly. Not minimizing coaching or "coaching up" or certainly not S&C, but raw athleticism + football speed compensate for a lot of deficiencies elsewhere. Ask the coaches who win.
RE: WSU Game Thread - Red80 - 10-18-2021
(10-18-2021, 03:40 PM)gailtate Wrote: 1. Recruiting
2. Recruiting
3. Recruiting
This, in order of importance and priority, is the core of football success. The elite teams, needless to say, do it the most efficiently and relentlessly. Not minimizing coaching or "coaching up" or certainly not S&C, but raw athleticism + football speed compensate for a lot of deficiencies elsewhere. Ask the coaches who win.
Ding! College football is 80% recruiting. The team with the better players will usually win. For Stanford, there's a recruiting niche that had been emphasized, beginning with Harbaugh, and now needs to be realized again: TEs and Fullbacks! They were a massive force in Shaw's best seasons, but not nearly so much since '18. Another thing is no more Pocket Passers! As good as McKee is, I think Stanford would be better off with QBs with Hogan-esque kind of improvisational ability. It can't be overstated how brobdingnagian Hogan's ability to create spontaneously was in Stanford's Rose Bowl seasons.
RE: WSU Game Thread - Goose - 10-18-2021
(10-18-2021, 12:26 PM)Austroturf Wrote:It may be that Shaw has below average position coaches and coordinators, but your argument here is very flawed. You position as i read it is: All good coordinators and position coaches will be/desire to be promoted. Shaw has had few such people promoted, therefore his people are not good. The premise is false. There are lots of guys (probably most of them given what actually happens) who are great position coaches and coordinators, but would fail at the next level up. Many of them know that (often because they have done it), and therefore do not desire to be promoted and/or know they can't do a good job at the next step up. This is especially true with older guys who like what they do, like working with student athletes, and want to keep doing that. Duane Akina and Ron Gould undoubtedly fall into this category. Others may as well. I think right now we would gladly take New Mexico's defensive coordinator.(10-18-2021, 10:38 AM)Goose Wrote:(10-18-2021, 10:22 AM)Phogge Wrote: BC... Harbs had Lord Fangio.Yes he did. For two years. Not really a viable long term option as Fangio was for sure looking for a NFL jump as soon as he could. Harbaugh was fortunate enough to take him to the 49ers, but he was probably gone either way. If you can get him to return, have at it but I think the odds are low.
You're hitting on a really important point here. Excellent coaches hire excellent assistants/coordinators that are destined for higher things. A leader of any organization should be proud to lose very good people to better opportunities. They are your legacy.
As a stark counterpoint to Stanford, here is how Saban has staffed his OC position since 2014:
1) Lane Kiffin, 2014-2016, left for FAU as HC and then Ole Miss as HC.
2) Brian Daboll, 2017, left to be OC at the Buffalo Bills in 2018 after the NC game.
3) Mike Locksley, 2018, left to be HC at Maryland.
4) Steve Sarkisian, 2019-2020, left to be HC at Texas.
5) Bill O'Brien, 2021, former HC of the Houston Texans.
Here is the Stanford list:
1) Mike Bloomgren, 2013-2017, the only Shaw hire to land an HC job at an FBS school (HC Rice).
2) Tavita Pritchard, 2018-2021, former QB coach at Stanford.
Harbs hired a slew of coaches who were willing and able to move on to bigger and better things. Shaw seems to be favoring continuity over excellence. Not a good choice. He should hire the best and be happy to see them move on after two to three years.
Another contrast to this is Brent Venables at Clemson, who appears to have accepted DC with Swinney as his destination job. Also fine, because he is one of the best in the business. His $1.7M salary also makes it easy to resist tempting HC jobs elsewhere.
So, while it may be Shaw really does need new blood, and while it also may be true that some of Shaw's guys do/do not get jobs elsewhere, the two things are not directly related.
RE: WSU Game Thread - teejers1 - 10-18-2021
(10-18-2021, 01:39 PM)Red80 Wrote: It's BS that Shaw's success between 2011-15 is mostly attributable to Harbaugh. Shaw did inherit a loaded 2011 squad led by probably the best QB college football had seen in 25 years. A QB who, in addition to his physical tools, was astounding with his LOS decision-making. And to this day, I wonder how successful Harbaugh would have been at Stanford had he not been able to ink Luck. #12 was a program-changer for Stanford and a career-changer for Harbaugh.
2012 and 2013? It is true that Harbaugh left Shaw with a number a very good defensive players. Offense? Not so much. Take a look at the offensive personnel for those two CHAMPIONSHIP seasons and you'll discover pretty modest talent, with the exception being the TE position. Shaw made the decision to go with a RS freshman QB (His recruit) about midway through the season because the other QBs (Harbaugh's recruits) were not very good and Stanford was probably headed to a minor bowl with Nunes at the helm.
In addition to having the balls to go with an inexperienced QB freshman at midseason, Shaw (and Pep Hamilton) made the very wise choice to emphasize a power running scheme that took full advantage of the basically average talent that they had. They took Power O to the next level, with 8-man OL sets, featuring 3 TEs, 295 lb. wingbacks, and stud fullbacks acting as crowbars. The QB was under center most of the time, which also set-up effective play-action passing...something Stanford fans have not seen for a few years.
Stanford won back-to-back titles, in a conference that was MUCH better than it currently is, because of very smart and decisive scheming offensively. Pretty? Crowd pleasing? No, but brutally effective. The only people who hated Stanford's offense more than the "I Want My Offense, I Want My Offense" crowd, were the coaches, players and fans of their opponents. Not so much because of what Shaw's offense did to their defense, but because of what it did to THEIR offense. Talented, high-powered offenses like Oregon, USC, and UCLA were forced to the sidelines for many minutes at a time, which not only kept Stanford's defense fresh and rested, but it also disrupted the pace and tempo of opposing offenses, offenses that thrived on playing fast and running 90+ plays p/g. Stanford slowed the game down to a snail's pace, physically punished opposing front-sevens, while frustrating and discombobulating their offenses. It worked beautifully, for the most part. Do I think Stanford would have gone to two straight Rose Bowls those years running any other kind of offense? HELL NO! Do I think Harbaugh would have led those teams to Pasadena? I doubt it.
Harbaugh gets credit for Stanford's 2015 squad that finished #3? How? That team was 100% Shaw's players and coaching. Offensively, it was the ideal combination of ball control Power O, along with home run explosiveness from anywhere on the field. It remains "The Model" for Stanford's offense going forward, imo. Of course, it requires pursuing and inking the right kind of Jimmy and Joe to make it go. This is where Shaw is failing badly the past few years. Stanford used to be different, unique, offensively. Hard to prepare for. Since 2018 they're really running the same stuff as most of their opponents, to their detriment.
Recruiting and realigning is the way to reverse the program's fortunes.
Wow. It's interesting how longtime fans can watch the same team over the same period of time and draw wildly different conclusions from what is seen on the field. And I'll just leave it at that.
(10-18-2021, 02:05 PM)Austroturf Wrote:(10-18-2021, 12:03 PM)gailtate Wrote: BC: What the hell, I'm gonna jump on the dog-pile here: Say what you will about Shaw's superior comparisons to what we slogged through in the WigginWagon-slash-PapaElway, et. al., years, but however much you feel the need to grasp at those straws in the wind just remember: This coach has shown absolutely no evidence, no temperament nor any shred of inclination to do whatever it will take to replenish what was gift-wrapped for him in 2011. Indeed, he is dismissive to the point of contempt whenever he catches a whiff of doubt about staying the course. The record is there for all to see: Left to his own devices after the last shred of ESPN confetti hit the ground after the Iowa Rose Bowl, the back-half of the Shaw era thus far has drifted (and now is accelerating) south: In the last 26 games he's 11-15. Arrow Down.
11-14 in the last 25 games (4-8, 4-2, 3-4). Going 26 games back includes the 2018 Sun Bowl, which we won against Pitt.
Forgive gail. I was at that Sun Bowl. It certainly didn't feel like a W.
RE: WSU Game Thread - JustAnotherFan - 10-18-2021
(10-18-2021, 02:05 PM)Austroturf Wrote:(10-18-2021, 12:03 PM)gailtate Wrote: BC: What the hell, I'm gonna jump on the dog-pile here: Say what you will about Shaw's superior comparisons to what we slogged through in the WigginWagon-slash-PapaElway, et. al., years, but however much you feel the need to grasp at those straws in the wind just remember: This coach has shown absolutely no evidence, no temperament nor any shred of inclination to do whatever it will take to replenish what was gift-wrapped for him in 2011. Indeed, he is dismissive to the point of contempt whenever he catches a whiff of doubt about staying the course. The record is there for all to see: Left to his own devices after the last shred of ESPN confetti hit the ground after the Iowa Rose Bowl, the back-half of the Shaw era thus far has drifted (and now is accelerating) south: In the last 26 games he's 11-15. Arrow Down.
11-14 in the last 25 games (4-8, 4-2, 3-4). Going 26 games back includes the 2018 Sun Bowl, which we won against Pitt.
Wouldn't that be 10-15?
(10-18-2021, 03:40 PM)gailtate Wrote: 1. Recruiting
2. Recruiting
3. Recruiting
This, in order of importance and priority, is the core of football success. The elite teams, needless to say, do it the most efficiently and relentlessly. Not minimizing coaching or "coaching up" or certainly not S&C, but raw athleticism + football speed compensate for a lot of deficiencies elsewhere. Ask the coaches who win.
Hasn't Shaw had consistently higher ranked classes than Harbaugh had? Yet Harbaugh did more with them. Player development under Harbaugh was phenomenal. Now we see highly rated recruits consistently underperforming.
RE: WSU Game Thread - BostonCard - 10-18-2021
(10-18-2021, 05:41 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:4 + 4 + 3 = 11Quote:11-14 in the last 25 games (4-8, 4-2, 3-4). Going 26 games back includes the 2018 Sun Bowl, which we won against Pitt.Wouldn't that be 10-15?
8 + 2 + 4 = 14
Thus 11-14 (.440) in the last 25 or 12-14 (.462) in the last 26. But if you really want to cherry pick, you can go with 10-14 (.417) in our last 24, since we won the first game in 2019 (against NW), or you could note we lost the last 4 games to end the season and are thus 7-10 (.412) in our last 17. Either way, it is certainly a down period.
BC
RE: WSU Game Thread - ADPinWDC - 10-18-2021
(10-17-2021, 10:14 AM)BostonCard Wrote: Usually these exercises are punctuated by wildly optimistic takes that we would land some big name coach. I have no reason to believe that any of the three names that I would offer would come.
Luke Fickell (head coach at Cincinnati) already makes $3.4 million a year and has ties to the BigTen (Ohio State), so I could see him becoming the next Nebraska coach or maybe an SEC wannabe.
Chris Petersen (former Washington head coach): if he really resigned due to feeling excessive pressure at Washington, maybe he’d do better at Stanford?
Kyle Wittingham (Utah head coach): he’d be a fool to leave Utah, but I like and respect him, and he is a great coach (as was evident last night against ASU)
I think all three would be in the category of “keep dreaming”
BC
I like the Chris Petersen idea if he really wants to coach again.
How would he be at recruiting?
But, first let's upgrade at OffCo -- We can't get better than Tavita?
And at DefCo... How about the DefCo at Cincinnati, or bring back Derek Mason.
RE: WSU Game Thread - BostonCard - 10-18-2021
(10-18-2021, 07:17 PM)ADPinWDC Wrote: I like the Chris Petersen idea if he really wants to coach again.
How would he be at recruiting?
But, first let's upgrade at OffCo -- We can't get better than Tavita?
And at DefCo... How about the DefCo at Cincinnati, or bring back Derek Mason.
Mason is Auburn's DC. As much as I like Stanford, it is at best a lateral move.
BC
RE: WSU Game Thread - ADPinWDC - 10-18-2021
At 3-4 in 2021 we now rank 94th in Total Offense yards per game.
And 88th on Team Defense.
Let's try some new blood at either Coordinator?
RE: WSU Game Thread - BostonCard - 10-18-2021
Because of pace of play, total yards per game probably overstates the defense a bit and understates the offense a bit. If you go by yards per play instead of yards per game, Stanford has the 92nd ranked defense and 64th ranked offense.
BC
RE: WSU Game Thread - Phogge - 10-18-2021
Regardless of the stats at this point in the season they stink.
lex24 - lex24 - 10-19-2021
(10-18-2021, 03:39 PM)Austroturf Wrote:(10-18-2021, 02:54 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(10-18-2021, 12:26 PM)Austroturf Wrote: Here is the Stanford list:
1) Mike Bloomgren, 2013-2017, the only Shaw hire to land an HC job at an FBS school (HC Rice).
2) Tavita Pritchard, 2018-2021, former QB coach at Stanford.
A few other former Stanford coaches under Shaw who went on to become HC:
Derek Mason (2010-2013), who left to coach Vanderbilt. He was originally hired by Harbaugh as DB coach, and then promoted to co-DC by Shaw in 2011, and sole DC in 2012.
Mike Sanford Jr (2011-2013) who eventually became head coach at Western Kentucky (via Boise State and Notre Dame OC stints)
Brian Polian (2010-2011), who eventually became head coach at Nevada (via a stint at Texas A&M as special teams coach); also originally hired by Harbaugh.
A few others who have come and gone:
Pep Hamilton OC 2011-2012 - left Stanford to become OC for the Indianapolis Colts
Jason Tarver co-DC and LB coach 2011 - left Stanford to become DC for the Raiders
Peter Hansen 2014-19 ILB coach - left Stanford to become ILB/DC for UNLV (which might have resulted in addition by subtraction)
Kevin Carberry 2018-20 OL coach - left Stanford to become OL coach for the LA Rams
Lance Taylor 2014-16 RB coach - left Stanford to become RB coach at the North Carolina Panthers
I get your point that for a coach of Shaw's tenure, few of his assistants have gone onto become head coach, and he has favored continuity, probably too much. While I do think that there is a strong case for making some changes in the staff, and for Shaw to look to bring in new assistants in places where we have struggled, turnover per se isn't a good thing, and lack of continuity impedes player development, as they have to adjust to new schemes, methods, etc. Shaw is probably an extreme outlier on the continuity end of the spectrum, to the detriment of the coaching, but it's not as simple as just changing things around for the sake of change.
BC
My point is more about the caliber of coordinator/assistant. Harbaugh's staff moved rather seamlessly to larger roles and represented a clear level higher than anyone Shaw has hired. Fangio, Taggart, Shaw himself, Pep Hamilton, Derek Mason, Polian. When all of these coaches left, Shaw replaced them with clear downgrades in caliber and potential. At OC alone, there was the shift from Pep Hamilton to Mike Boomgren to Tavita Pritchard. Seriously? And at DC: Fangio to Mason to Anderson (Mason was an excellent DC and was no downgrade to Fangio, but he was hired by Harbaugh). I hate to be nasty, but when the conversation comes up about top-flight coordinators at the FBS level, it is highly unlikely that the names Pritchard and Anderson are ever mentioned.
If Shaw cares about the Stanford football program, he should be trying to attract coordinators that could potentially be his successor, just as Harbaugh did. Yes, Harbaugh hired a dude named David Shaw who eventually succeeded him. Shaw has been totally delinquent in this department, and it is a worrying sign. Do you see anyone in Shaw's staff who could be his successor? I don't. Harbaugh had at least three (Fangio, Taggart and Shaw), and a case could be made for Mason and Polian, as well, but probably not without a developmental step in between.
Thanks for the info on Mike Sanford. I guess he joins Mike Bloomgren as one of only two Shaw hires that have ever acceded to HC jobs at FBS programs. Didn't last long for Sanford, though, as he is now OC at Minnesota (after being OC at Utah State). Let's see how long Mike Bloomgren holds out: HC at Rice is a tough slog. I wish him all the best. Derek Mason also found his Waterloo at Vanderbilt. Hope he bounces back at Auburn.
Good points.
RE: WSU Game Thread - gailtate - 10-19-2021
(10-18-2021, 10:15 PM)Phogge Wrote: Regardless of the stats at this point in the season they stink.
Posty.
RE: WSU Game Thread - Austroturf - 10-19-2021
(10-18-2021, 04:16 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(10-18-2021, 02:05 PM)Austroturf Wrote:(10-18-2021, 12:03 PM)gailtate Wrote: BC: What the hell, I'm gonna jump on the dog-pile here: Say what you will about Shaw's superior comparisons to what we slogged through in the WigginWagon-slash-PapaElway, et. al., years, but however much you feel the need to grasp at those straws in the wind just remember: This coach has shown absolutely no evidence, no temperament nor any shred of inclination to do whatever it will take to replenish what was gift-wrapped for him in 2011. Indeed, he is dismissive to the point of contempt whenever he catches a whiff of doubt about staying the course. The record is there for all to see: Left to his own devices after the last shred of ESPN confetti hit the ground after the Iowa Rose Bowl, the back-half of the Shaw era thus far has drifted (and now is accelerating) south: In the last 26 games he's 11-15. Arrow Down.
11-14 in the last 25 games (4-8, 4-2, 3-4). Going 26 games back includes the 2018 Sun Bowl, which we won against Pitt.
Forgive gail. I was at that Sun Bowl. It certainly didn't feel like a W.
It was late evening over here on New Year's Eve of 2018. We had guests, so I was not watching or following the game. But my son kept checking in and giving me depressing update after depressing update. Mediocre Pitt was up 13-7 in the 3rd quarter, and Stanford could get nothing going on offense (around 100 yards of total offense in nearly three quarters). Then, finally, a score in the 4th quarter after an 8 play 87 yard drive with a forward fumble from KJ to Cameron Scarlett in the end-zone. 14-13, and Shaw successfully turtled this advantage to the end of the game. No resounding sense of victory, but a W stands in the annals of Cardinal football history, for what it's worth.