WBB: the NCAA tournament - Printable Version
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RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - WBB fan - 03-31-2023
Has there ever been a women's final game before this year without a #1 seed? This year, it's Iowa (#2) vs LSU (#3). What an elevation of competition in the women's game.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - TheFarm07 - 03-31-2023
(03-31-2023, 09:48 PM)TheWildJacko Wrote: Did we watch the same game? I would not describe Iowa as Caitlin Clark + a lack of supporting cast. To my eye, the rest of the team worked incredibly well to enable what Clark did, and their defense on SC was just as crucial as Clark’s offensive brilliance. The passing from everyone on the team was very precise, and Czinano’s footwork around the basket was unreal. Plus there were several other shooters who were able to hit key shots aside from Clark. I think Iowa is quite well coached, and the team as a whole plays very well together, and they also happen to have a generational talent in Clark who helped carry them to the title game.
I am not saying that the rest of Iowa's team is bad, but relatively speaking, their talent level sans Clark is not as high as say, Sabally and Hebard on Oregon's team. But they did a great job. As otherworldly as Clark was, it wasn't 1 on 5 and even though S. Carolina snagged an insane amount of offensive rebounds, Iowa's defense did just enough. Boston was held scoreless up until the second half, I think. They just could not prevent Cardoso from grabbing those o-boards and landing those putbacks, I think she started 7/7 before missing a crucial second-chance opportunity late in the game.
Offensively, Czanino is nearly automatic against most defenses inside and Iowa has enough other shooters that you can't cheat and leave them open.
(03-31-2023, 10:27 PM)WBB fan Wrote: Has there ever been a women's final game before this year without a #1 seed? This year, it's Iowa (#2) vs LSU (#3). What an elevation of competition in the women's game.
In 2011, Texas A&M and Notre Dame were both #2 seeds in the championship game. I think that was the last time that a #1 seed was not in the finals.
Going back even further, I think you have to go back nearly two more decades to find the next example: #3 North Carolina over #4 Louisiana Tech in the 1994 title game.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - Maple Leaf - 04-01-2023
Clark's 41 points in a Final Four broke the previous record held by Nneka Ogwumike.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - OutsiderFan - 04-01-2023
Is Caitlin Clark the greatest WBB college player ever?
Cheryl Miller, Diana Taurusi, Breanna Stewart and others get that acclaim, but Clark seems like she can do things nobody in WBB has done before.
I just have to say what a class act Aliyah Boston is. Saw her post game interview after her team lost. She could not have been more impressive. So composed, so thoughtful. What a credit to WBB.
Pasportsfan - PAsportsfan - 04-01-2023
Congratulations to Iowa fan Lex24!
Akiddoc with the perfect comparison to Curry.
What are everyone’s thoughts on Clark’s interview stating she wants to transfer to Stanford?
RE: Pasportsfan - 81alum - 04-01-2023
(04-01-2023, 06:22 AM)PAsportsfan Wrote: Congratulations to Iowa fan Lex24!April Fools!
Akiddoc with the perfect comparison to Curry.
What are everyone’s thoughts on Clark’s interview stating she wants to transfer to Stanford?
Same trick two years ago when she was a freshman.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - 81alum - 04-01-2023
(03-31-2023, 09:03 PM)TheFarm07 Wrote:These comparisons are always going to be very subjective, and I imagine a lot of us like Clark because her game is so beautiful to watch. However, I do think that statistically her performances hold up against most anyone. I also agree that while Iowa has some good players and plays well within a well-coached system, their overall talent level without Clark is not up to the same levels as UConn or South Carolina or Oregon in the Ionescu era (or Stanford most years.) That does make Clark's achievements even more noteworthy.(03-31-2023, 08:54 PM)81alum Wrote: Nice to see Iowa win. Clark is probably the best WBB player in a generation--maybe more. 41 points when she was the complete focus of the best defensive team in America. Astounding. I really hope Iowa absolutely dominates LSU.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you and I think Clark is incredibly talented and totally deserved of her accolades & reputation, underscored by her extraordinary game tonight against the best defensive team in the country (even more amazing when considering her supporting cast is probably not as strong as those around Boston), but how would you compare her against Sabrina Ionescu or Breanna Stewart, both of whom were doing some amazing stuff too, not too long ago?
Perhaps a better comparison would be Kelsey Plum and Washington, who had Osahor, and beat us in the elite 8 in 2016. Plum was as important to Washington as Clark is to Iowa. She averaged 32 points her senior year and, like Clark, was a three level scorer, shooting 38% from three.
Clark is averaging 27 points and shooting 39% from three.
Now, if you ask me to explain why Clark is better than Plum, I'm not sure I can, although that is my eye test. Maybe because Washington did not get as far as Iowa. If Iowa and Clark win a natty, that might be enough to tip the balance.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - Card10Fan - 04-01-2023
These games can serve as reminder of just how HARD it is to win a National Championship. For LSU, they should have been beat in the Sweet 16 if the Utah player makes her two free throws with 4 or however many seconds remained - they likely would have lost in the Sweet 16.
South Carolina has been dominant and the best team all year. They don't play their best game against Iowa and they are out. They really were deserving of winning the championship (even though I'm glad Iowa pulled the upset)
So for all the years we were so so so close and couldn't get over the hump, it happens to other teams too and just reiterates how difficult it truly is and how some luck really needs to be on your side to get to the finish line.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - Maple Leaf - 04-01-2023
(04-01-2023, 08:37 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: These games can serve as reminder of just how HARD it is to win a National Championship. For LSU, they should have been beat in the Sweet 16 if the Utah player makes her two free throws with 4 or however many seconds remained - they likely would have lost in the Sweet 16.
South Carolina has been dominant and the best team all year. They don't play their best game against Iowa and they are out. They really were deserving of winning the championship (even though I'm glad Iowa pulled the upset)
So for all the years we were so so so close and couldn't get over the hump, it happens to other teams too and just reiterates how difficult it truly is and how some luck really needs to be on your side to get to the finish line.
Very good observations. Tara said after winning her third national championship that it takes a bit of luck along with having a really good team.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - 81alum - 04-01-2023
(04-01-2023, 09:15 AM)Maple Leaf Wrote:I think she (or maybe it was one of the assistants) said three things are required to repeat: 1) keep improving all season long, 2) remain injury free, and 3) get a little bit lucky.(04-01-2023, 08:37 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: These games can serve as reminder of just how HARD it is to win a National Championship. For LSU, they should have been beat in the Sweet 16 if the Utah player makes her two free throws with 4 or however many seconds remained - they likely would have lost in the Sweet 16.
South Carolina has been dominant and the best team all year. They don't play their best game against Iowa and they are out. They really were deserving of winning the championship (even though I'm glad Iowa pulled the upset)
So for all the years we were so so so close and couldn't get over the hump, it happens to other teams too and just reiterates how difficult it truly is and how some luck really needs to be on your side to get to the finish line.
Very good observations. Tara said after winning her third national championship that it takes a bit of luck along with having a really good team.
We had 1 of the three this year.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - standfan - 04-01-2023
(03-31-2023, 07:14 PM)81alum Wrote:I actually meant interior both in terms of directly scoring and by being the engine that drives the offense. (Since I am not expecting too much from the freshman, both the returning interior and exterior players will need to score more and rebound more to replace Haley's production (13.5 PTs, 9.0 Rs).(03-31-2023, 07:09 PM)standfan Wrote:Did you mean exterior production? We need more outside shooting to prevent defenses from doing the box-and-1 on Jump, similar to what Iowa is doing to South Carolina. Opening space means threatening from all parts of the floor.(03-31-2023, 06:22 PM)Card10Fan Wrote: Look at these telling stats.One way or the other, Tara needs to get more interior production next year. I attended 5 of the 6 games in Seattle, including the 2 E8 games. My impressions were (1) that our posts were easily better than those of any of the 8 teams in Seattle (no LSU or USoCar); but (2) every team had more good outside shooters who were willing to take an outside shot w/o hesitation when presented with an open opportunity.
Points in the paint: 54-14 LSU
2nd chance point in 2nd half: 30-4 LSU
How does LSU score 54 paint points when they have worse perimeter shooters around Reese than we have around Brink? Should we be copying the Mulkey coaching playbook?
I think we all can agree we need better jumpshooting from outside and midrange. But knowing the problem is not knowing the solution. How do we get it? With incoming freshmen? With improved sophomores? Or getting some of our seniors and juniors not named Jump to become more credible threats? We tried all year long and failed. We will see how Tara solves the obvious problem, but I'd rather know now than have to wait 7 months ;(
Brink, Iriafen, Betts and Belibi collectively averaged 31.7 points this season. I consider them this year's posts - 70% of Prechtel's limited scoring were off 3PT shots, and Jones' 13.5 PTS per game were hybrid (and she is not coming back). I think next year's posts need to score considerably more points than 31.7 per game to replace a major chunk of Jones' points. The same group of posts averaged only 3.7 assists per game last year. That also need to go up. We need to increase our exterior production, but I just don't see that being generated much by our exterior players' drives or exterior passes. They will have to shoot and hit more open threes. Without anyone with Haley's penetration skills, a lot of the open looks outside will need to come from a good inside-outside game, i.e., more assists by the posts.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - standfan - 04-01-2023
(04-01-2023, 08:00 AM)81alum Wrote: Perhaps a better comparison would be Kelsey Plum and Washington, who had Osahor, and beat us in the elite 8 in 2016. Plum was as important to Washington as Clark is to Iowa. She averaged 32 points her senior year and, like Clark, was a three level scorer, shooting 38% from three.My impression is that Plum may have been a bit better inside the circle but that Clark's range and ability to generate her own 3 point shots are better. She is not surrounded by top tier NCAA players (although the other Hawkeyes are competent and disciplined). It will be interesting to see how well she can play with stronger teammates. Curry-like does come to mind.
Clark is averaging 27 points and shooting 39% from three.
Now, if you ask me to explain why Clark is better than Plum, I'm not sure I can, although that is my eye test. Maybe because Washington did not get as far as Iowa. If Iowa and Clark win a natty, that might be enough to tip the balance.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - OutsiderFan - 04-01-2023
I admittedly don't watch a lot of WBB, but I can't recall seeing anyone with Caitlin Clark's skills.
She is like a combination of Nikola Jokic and Steph Curry. Not Jokic because she is big, but because you simply can't double team her without her making you pay for doing so. She has great vision and her teammates have been coached really well to take advantage of her passing. She's also pretty good on defense.
Clark is the only WBB player I can remember who has the step back 3 pt shot in her game, who can also drive and beat people off the dribble. She can create her own shot anywhere on the floor and against South Carolina, she beat their shot blocking in multiple ways to score in the paint.
Sabrina Iounescu was great, but I don't think she had the athleticism and breadth of game Clark does. I'm not sure any WBB player has done as many things as well as Clark does them.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - WBB fan - 04-01-2023
(04-01-2023, 02:54 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I admittedly don't watch a lot of WBB, but I can't recall seeing anyone with Caitlin Clark's skills.
She is like a combination of Nikola Jokic and Steph Curry. Not Jokic because she is big, but because you simply can't double team her without her making you pay for doing so. She has great vision and her teammates have been coached really well to take advantage of her passing. She's also pretty good on defense.
Clark is the only WBB player I can remember who has the step back 3 pt shot in her game, who can also drive and beat people off the dribble. She can create her own shot anywhere on the floor and against South Carolina, she beat their shot blocking in multiple ways to score in the paint.
Sabrina Iounescu was great, but I don't think she had the athleticism and breadth of game Clark does. I'm not sure any WBB player has done as many things as well as Clark does them.
Well put. And not only the skills, but the verve that she brings the game. She's just fantastic fun to watch, maybe why the cheapest tickets for the sold-out game on the Vividseats site are going for about $380, and the few, very few, really good seats available are being offered for about $2800 each.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - BostonCard - 04-01-2023
(04-01-2023, 02:54 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Sabrina Iounescu was great, but I don't think she had the athleticism and breadth of game Clark does. I'm not sure any WBB player has done as many things as well as Clark does them.
I think you are remembering a different Ionescu than I am. Ionescu had 26 triple doubles. Despite being an inch shorter than Clark, she averaged 7.3 rebounds per game for her career. Clark is a superb scorer. They are both outstanding distributors; you might give Clark the edge here because Ionescu’s supporting cast was stronger. Ionescu was a better rebounder. I think Ionescu was also a better defender. The “better supporting cast” cuts both ways; I think if you hand Ionescu on Iowa’s supporting cast, she scores more because she has to. So, I would argue that Ionescu was more versatile.
BC
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - pauloalto - 04-01-2023
Clark and the Iowa team reminded me of Larry Bird and the Indiana State team in the 1979 NCAA's.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - TheFarm07 - 04-01-2023
(04-01-2023, 05:27 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(04-01-2023, 02:54 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Sabrina Iounescu was great, but I don't think she had the athleticism and breadth of game Clark does. I'm not sure any WBB player has done as many things as well as Clark does them.
I think you are remembering a different Ionescu than I am. Ionescu had 26 triple doubles. Despite being an inch shorter than Clark, she averaged 7.3 rebounds per game for her career. Clark is a superb scorer. They are both outstanding distributors; you might give Clark the edge here because Ionescu’s supporting cast was stronger. Ionescu was a better rebounder. I think Ionescu was also a better defender. The “better supporting cast” cuts both ways; I think if you hand Ionescu on Iowa’s supporting cast, she scores more because she has to. So, I would argue that Ionescu was more versatile.
BC
I think you're right. Clark has to sometimes come up with amazing shots and plays because she needs to, and Ionescu didn't need to as often with Sabally and Hebard. This discussion was just for fun. No shade for Clark. As a Storm fan, I am expecting a miserable season with the departure of Stewart and the retirement of Bird, so I am hoping we can draft her #1 next year.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - PVTree - 04-01-2023
The triple-doubles speak for themselves. I'm of the mind that Ionescu was a better all-around player than Clark. Clark does have deeper range than Sabrina, but Sabrina had great numbers despite having other WNBA players on the roster who also got their numbers.
I also agree that Plum is a better comparison for Clark.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - BosCard - 04-01-2023
I think Clark needs to win a National Championship before the greatest player conversations start. If LSU wins, then three top 5 players in Clark’s 2020 class will have won a national championship (Brink, Reese, Cardoso) and the other top 5 player will have lead her team to more Final Fours than Clark (Bueckers). I think we can safely say that the top of the 2020 class is one of if not the best ever. Bueckers, Reese, Brink and Clark have all turned into great college players. And what they all seem to have in common is a hyper competitive nature which is great to see in the women’s game.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - BostonCard - 04-01-2023
Speaking of incredible players, Aliyah Boston declared for the WNBA draft. She is almost certainly the #1 pick, and although she had a bad final four game against Iowa, she deserves to be in the conversation for best players in recent history. Obviously she is a very different player than Clark, Ionescu, or Plum, but she is a force.
BC