WBB: the NCAA tournament - Printable Version
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RE: Baez87 - 76lsjumb - 04-02-2023
(04-02-2023, 07:34 PM)crackpot Wrote:(04-02-2023, 05:48 PM)triangle2 Wrote: Reese's behavior at the end of the game was not a good look for her.
Would you have said the same if it was Brink doing it?
Assuming the reference is to what Reese did in front of Clark several minutes after the game was over, I have a very hard time imagining that Brink would have done anything like that…
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - martyup - 04-02-2023
Mulkey said it herself after the game, she brought together a group of good basketball players that had personality issues that prevented them from doing well in other programs. She admitted the she herself had "personality issues" when she was playing baketball.
This is what the NCAA gets for enacting the current transfer rules. The was a completely mercenary team of 9 players that had never played together before this season. Student athletes? Not even close.
Angel Reese has no class and is a terrible example for young women who want to compete in sports. Her disrespect for Clark after the game was disgusting.
Did anyone else notice that the LSU players never shook hands with the Iowa players after the game?
triangle2 - triangle2 - 04-02-2023
(04-02-2023, 07:34 PM)crackpot Wrote:(04-02-2023, 05:48 PM)triangle2 Wrote: Reese's behavior at the end of the game was not a good look for her.
Would you have said the same if it was Brink doing it?
Honestly, yes. I don’t mind passionate celebration, or something that happens in a spontaneous moment. For instance, in the Brink v. Hollingshed conflict, I could understand how Brink got outraged and retaliated in the moment. That seems different than post-game taunting when you’ve just won a national championship and the other team is probably experiencing the kind of anguish that won’t ever go away. I thought Reese was genuinely disrespectful and mean-spirited. I mean, this isn’t the NBA, and these are still kids. If Brink did that, I would expect Coach Tara to be the adult in the room, to forcefully disclaim that kind of behavior, and for Brink to come out and apologize publicly. Think about the contrast between what happened tonight and Haley Jones hugging Boston after South Carolina lost to us two years ago. Call me old fashioned, but I prefer compassion to being a total jerk.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - BostonCard - 04-02-2023
Curious what people have to say about Clark's sportsmanship here:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/OfficialBGrimes/status/1642652023521722371?s=20[/tweet]
BC
RE: Baez87 - 81alum - 04-02-2023
(04-02-2023, 07:34 PM)crackpot Wrote:Absolutely.(04-02-2023, 05:48 PM)triangle2 Wrote: Reese's behavior at the end of the game was not a good look for her.
Would you have said the same if it was Brink doing it?
What Reese did was revolting, and she kept repeating it, over and over, just to be sure she had been seen. She should be disciplined for such an egregious case of unsportsmanship. I hardly expect that will happen, though.
But Clark was guilty of some of the same, using the same taunt after Iowa's elite 8 win. As Reese put it:
Quote:“I’m happy, I mean all year I was critiqued about who I was. I don’t fit the narrative, I don’t fit in the box that y’all want me to be in. I’m too hood, I’m too ghetto. Y’all told me that all year. But when other people do it, y’all don’t say nothing,” Reese said.
I think she has a good point--I was not even aware of Clark's taunting since it was not featured as extensively as Reese's in the coverage. And yes, there are some ugly undertones of race in the unequal treatment.
I am disgusted by these taunting displays and I will put that on Clark too. If this is the future of WBB, I want no part of it.
My most searing memory of watching this game will be the Reese taunt. What a shame that instead of discussing some beautiful basketball, we are left thinking about terrible officiating, mean spirited player taunts, and that the national champs are a classless band of mercenaries with attitude problems.
Someone said earlier that this tournament has reminded us just how hard it is to win a natty. Well, watching this, reminds me that there are things far more important than a natty, and that Stanford is fighting a very lonely battle to be successful without compromising on absolutely everything.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - Jskass - 04-02-2023
Both rude.
RE: Baez87 - chimera - 04-02-2023
(04-02-2023, 09:15 PM)81alum Wrote:(04-02-2023, 07:34 PM)crackpot Wrote:Absolutely.(04-02-2023, 05:48 PM)triangle2 Wrote: Reese's behavior at the end of the game was not a good look for her.
Would you have said the same if it was Brink doing it?
What Reese did was revolting, and she kept repeating it, over and over, just to be sure she had been seen. She should be disciplined for such an egregious case of unsportsmanship. I hardly expect that will happen, though.
But Clark was guilty of some of the same, using the same taunt after Iowa's elite 8 win. As Reese put it:
Quote:“I’m happy, I mean all year I was critiqued about who I was. I don’t fit the narrative, I don’t fit in the box that y’all want me to be in. I’m too hood, I’m too ghetto. Y’all told me that all year. But when other people do it, y’all don’t say nothing,” Reese said.
I think she has a good point--I was not even aware of Clark's taunting since it was not featured as extensively as Reese's in the coverage. And yes, there are some ugly undertones of race in the unequal treatment.
I am disgusted by these taunting displays and I will put that on Clark too. If this is the future of WBB, I want no part of it.
My most searing memory of watching this game will be the Reese taunt. What a shame that instead of discussing some beautiful basketball, we are left thinking about terrible officiating, mean spirited player taunts, and that the national champs are a classless band of mercenaries with attitude problems.
Someone said earlier that this tournament has reminded us just how hard it is to win a natty. Well, watching this, reminds me that there are things far more important than a natty, and that Stanford is fighting a very lonely battle to be successful without compromising on absolutely everything.
The other thing that happened was Rebecca Lobo made a fuss over that Clark gesture and made it sound like a fun, cool thing, which it wasn't. If Clark was waving dismissively at a player to indicate she couldn't be bothered to defend that player outside, I feel that is poor sportsmanship beyond just trash talking and Clark should cut it out. It is also stupid to do that because it can fire up the other team. It would be the same if a MBB player did it. The "you don't see me" gesture after a three that Clark made in a previous game seems a little different to me in that it was not directed at any particular opposing player. It is kind of a mix of celebration with a little taunt in there. I'd much prefer players don't act like that. It detracts from how good Clark is that she does that stuff, for me anyway.
What Reese did was worse because she was right near Clark and clearly trying to rub it in (sore winner), it was multiple taunts, and the timing was terrible. Bad enough to taunt an opponent during a game, worse to taunt an opponent in the waning moments of a championship game you are about to win. If Reese felt that Clark slighted her SEC friends or her own team, she got the best revenge, a championship. It is a shame we are talking about this instead of the game.
I read a few things from some who cover women's college basketball that said essentially it was just two tough, strong women being themselves or something like that, and everyone should be ok with it. Sorry, being a strong woman or an opinionated one, or whatever doesn't mean it is ok to be a jerk (which you are if you are taunting your opponent or making fun of them in front of a crowd during a game) or a poor sport. I wouldn't like seeing MBB players do that stuff and I don't like it when WBB players do it.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - TheFarm07 - 04-02-2023
ESPN released their much-too-early Top 25 Rankings (https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/36044329/womens-college-basketball-way-too-early-top-25-2023-24):
They slotted UConn as the #1 team heading into next season, but what is much more interesting and unexpected is that they had Utah above newly crowned champs LSU and finalist Iowa and just behind the Huskies in the #2 spot. They defend this ranking pointing to the expectation that the Utes will be the only team in their rankings to return all of their starters.
LSU is #3 and Iowa is #4 and Indiana rounds out the top five. UCLA is next up at #6 (they tabbed the Bruins along with us and Utes at the top of the conference), followed by South Carolina dropping all the way down to #7 and then Ohio State in eighth position. We are all the way down at #9:
"By midseason Cameron Brink had surpassed Haley Jones as Stanford's best player, and the rising senior will be on every national player of the year shortlist. Jones' departure leaves a scoring, rebounding and ballhandling hole for Stanford. Brink will need a No. 2, and that role could fall to young guards Talana Lepolo and Indya Nivar or wing Brooke Demetre. The 6-7 Lauren Betts should be much improved, and combined with the 6-4 Brink, they could give the Cardinal the best shot-blocking tandem in the country."
Four other Pac-12 teams also cracked the top 25: Oregon was next up at #16, Colorado came in at #20, USC at #21 with the addition of top-ranked recruit JuJu Watkins and Washington State finishes the rankings in the 25th spot. Washington was also mentioned as a team considered in the rankings.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - freddot5 - 04-03-2023
Here's the post game press conference. Have a few other things to do now. Comments later if I have time.
Press Conference: Iowa vs. LSU Postgame - 2023 NCAA ... YouTube·March Madness·Apr 2, 2023
[/quote]
Your link is "brinked". I get a message that the website is blocked.
[/quote]
Sorry PV. Was OK earlier.
Hopefully this one will work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBantTFq-QU
RE: Baez87 - lex24 - 04-03-2023
(04-02-2023, 09:47 PM)chimera Wrote:(04-02-2023, 09:15 PM)81alum Wrote:(04-02-2023, 07:34 PM)crackpot Wrote:Absolutely.(04-02-2023, 05:48 PM)triangle2 Wrote: Reese's behavior at the end of the game was not a good look for her.
Would you have said the same if it was Brink doing it?
What Reese did was revolting, and she kept repeating it, over and over, just to be sure she had been seen. She should be disciplined for such an egregious case of unsportsmanship. I hardly expect that will happen, though.
But Clark was guilty of some of the same, using the same taunt after Iowa's elite 8 win. As Reese put it:
Quote:“I’m happy, I mean all year I was critiqued about who I was. I don’t fit the narrative, I don’t fit in the box that y’all want me to be in. I’m too hood, I’m too ghetto. Y’all told me that all year. But when other people do it, y’all don’t say nothing,” Reese said.
I think she has a good point--I was not even aware of Clark's taunting since it was not featured as extensively as Reese's in the coverage. And yes, there are some ugly undertones of race in the unequal treatment.
I am disgusted by these taunting displays and I will put that on Clark too. If this is the future of WBB, I want no part of it.
My most searing memory of watching this game will be the Reese taunt. What a shame that instead of discussing some beautiful basketball, we are left thinking about terrible officiating, mean spirited player taunts, and that the national champs are a classless band of mercenaries with attitude problems.
Someone said earlier that this tournament has reminded us just how hard it is to win a natty. Well, watching this, reminds me that there are things far more important than a natty, and that Stanford is fighting a very lonely battle to be successful without compromising on absolutely everything.
The other thing that happened was Rebecca Lobo made a fuss over that Clark gesture and made it sound like a fun, cool thing, which it wasn't. If Clark was waving dismissively at a player to indicate she couldn't be bothered to defend that player outside, I feel that is poor sportsmanship beyond just trash talking and Clark should cut it out. It is also stupid to do that because it can fire up the other team. It would be the same if a MBB player did it. The "you don't see me" gesture after a three that Clark made in a previous game seems a little different to me in that it was not directed at any particular opposing player. It is kind of a mix of celebration with a little taunt in there. I'd much prefer players don't act like that. It detracts from how good Clark is that she does that stuff, for me anyway.
What Reese did was worse because she was right near Clark and clearly trying to rub it in (sore winner), it was multiple taunts, and the timing was terrible. Bad enough to taunt an opponent during a game, worse to taunt an opponent in the waning moments of a championship game you are about to win. If Reese felt that Clark slighted her SEC friends or her own team, she got the best revenge, a championship. It is a shame we are talking about this instead of the game.
I read a few things from some who cover women's college basketball that said essentially it was just two tough, strong women being themselves or something like that, and everyone should be ok with it. Sorry, being a strong woman or an opinionated one, or whatever doesn't mean it is ok to be a jerk (which you are if you are taunting your opponent or making fun of them in front of a crowd during a game) or a poor sport. I wouldn't like seeing MBB players do that stuff and I don't like it when WBB players do it.
Ship sailed a long time ago. Trash talking in mens hoops (and football) is not only accepted, it’s glorified. No reason it should be different in women’s game.
Good article by Killion on how refs ruined game. A pathetic performance. There is a time to realize that no one comes to a game to watch referees “perform”. They set a record for fouls in a Championship. By 10 fouls. T to Clark for nothing. Mulkey puts hand on ref, essentially pushing. No call.
LSU wins anyway. But the refs destroyed any flow.
RE: Baez87 - 81alum - 04-03-2023
(04-03-2023, 07:12 AM)lex24 Wrote: Ship sailed a long time ago. Trash talking in mens hoops (and football) is not only accepted, it’s glorified. No reason it should be different in women’s game.I enjoy watching WBB because it is not like the men's game, and there has not been as much trash talking, and given the previous lack of professional opportunities there has not been as much money and corruption, there have not been as many one-and-dones, and education has been a much higher priority for the student-athletes than for the men. Men have been excessively angry with their language in many walks of life, and the women's game was a place that that sort of attitude rarely intruded.
So while the ship may have sailed for the men a long time ago, it seems to me that it took the transfer portal and NIL money to reduce the women to the low level of the men. The ship for me is not sailing, it is sinking.
fredhalf@stanfordalumni.org - freddot5 - 04-03-2023
Agree with the posters that the game has changed and not totally for the better. I have been a men’s basketball fan since the early 1950’s (East Coast mostly small Catholic schools and the NIT) and women’s basketball since Stanford won in 1990. My wife (who was not a sports person) agreed to become season ticket holders in 1994 and she is a real fan and supporter of the women’s game because it was “a beautiful and enjoyable game to watch”. Not so much for the men’s game. She also liked the fact that she could watch the development of the players for four years both as players and humans. Without doing a deep dive into the rules, I believe that both the men’s and women’s games were non-contact with freedom of movement. One could play defense with quick hands and feet. As the players got bigger and faster the game became more above the rim and it was easier to either change the rules or how the referees interpreted them. I rarely leave a game before it ends but the Mississippi-Gonzaga was too hard to watch and we left shortly after halftime.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - WBB fan - 04-03-2023
Here's the Killion article from this morning's Chron. She writes about a lot of things that marred what should have been a game for the ages -- the refs, Mulkey's self promotion and acting out, the taunt. . .
I agree with all the comments in earlier posts re the taunting -- both Clark and Reese should be ashamed of themselves and their coaches and teammates should have told them to cut it out. Show respect for each other. Clark was dismissive, and that was not acceptable to me. But Reese's taunt yesterday, I think, was worse. She did it first before the game was over, then repeated it after the game ended -- really rubbing it in. For me, I guess I'm a bit biased because I don't like the mercenary quality of the LSU line-up. The Iowa players have made Iowa their basketball home, developed a real team ethos among themselves. LSU is more a bunch of individual players who seem to be out for themselves. It worked yesterday. Would it in all games? When one of those transfers isn't having the game of her life off the bench? How many of them will be at LSU next year, replaced by a new cadre of fresh transfers? And how many will stay around at LSU to graduate with a degree in something they can use in life after basketball? Back in the dark ages, college sports was a way for a lower income kid to get a scholarship to go to college and get an education. Today, for more and more in the major sports, it's go to college to prepare you for going pro in sports after. The education bit, going to class etc., for some, I suspect, that's just a nuisance they have to deal with.
oops. Here's the link to the Killion article
https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/annkillion/article/great-players-trash-talking-bad-refs-lsu-win-17874381.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=copy-url-link&utm_campaign=article-share&hash=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc2ZjaHJvbmljbGUuY29tL3Nwb3J0cy9hbm5raWxsaW9uL2FydGljbGUvZ3JlYXQtcGxheWVycy10cmFzaC10YWxraW5nLWJhZC1yZWZzLWxzdS13aW4tMTc4NzQzODEucGhw&time=MTY4MDUzODExNDQyNg==&rid=M2MxMjcwMWMtZmVlNS00MjQzLWE4MDYtMDkyOTI3OGZiYjY3&sharecount=Mg==
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - BobK - 04-03-2023
With the covid year so many athletes are getting their masters. I think that’s a brobdingnagian plus
I hated Mulkey’s tactics. Why she is allowed this I have no clue. But it’s terrible for the game.
Per Ann. The game started great then the officials said what about us
Then by 10 the most fouls ever called in a championship game
Then many words on Mulkey
Baez87 - Baez87 - 04-03-2023
Having watched the pressers, read some post-game reports, and reflected on my impressions of the game, I'm at a loss for where to start…
Take away the extracurricular lack of class and sportsmanship displayed during and after the Women's Championship game yesterday, and there was lots to like about basketball game that produced close to two hundred points and many sensational plays. The problem is that you can’t separate the sport from the sportsman or sportswoman.
Caitlin Clark may have set the stage with what has been her signature all year — gesturing to the crowd to applaud her, her confident or arrogant (perception depends on whether she is your player or your opponent) stride on the court, noticeably playing off of an opponent she is guarding. This played well in Iowa, but not in Dallas. She became a target for LSU in their game preparation and spilled out on the court after the game was over.
Given their pregame statements directed at Clark, Angel Reese and company came in spoiling for a fight. Very early in the game there was a very aggressive struggle for the ball involving Iowa's Czinano, who extended the skirmish beyond the play. It was called a jump ball, but it seemed to set the stage for the refs to inject themselves into the ballgame to ensure that it didn’t get out of hand. Thus the trips to the monitor during the game to make sure that flagrant fouls hadn’t been committed and a record number of fouls called during the game.
Angel (not to be mistaken for the biblical version) Reese admits that her temperament and play is "ghetto" and it probably gave rise to her disagreements with her former coach Brenda Frese. Reese and Ashley Owusu left Maryland to join other teams. Owusu's attitude at Virginia Tech got her sidelined and it was no coincidence that after VT's loss in the tournament (with Owusu on the bench) that Reese twittered, "Free my Dawg!" — look to see Owusu joining LSU via the portal this spring. It's all part of the low-class behavior of immature kids vaulted onto news services because they can play basketball.
Still, contrasting Clark with Reese, cannot be done without calling into play the double standard that these kids find themselves embroiled. It’s part of a class struggle, one that is beyond the comprehension of the people involved.
That’s why these kids have coaches. Lisa Bluder is about as professional as a coach can be. In my limited observations of her, I have great respect for her as a person and as a coach. I have no idea if she made any attempt to quell Clark's arrogance. On the other hand, Kim Mulkey is the epitome of arrogance. She plays on her kids to be victims in order to get them to project their grievances onto others, and on to society. She inserts herself into her players lives as their savior and fellow underdog. And, somehow she gets away with murder. She storms the court continually and she even takes residence on the court to direct her team and the referees to do her bidding. I have no idea how she gets away with this or her constant harangues.
Of course, the refereeing had its problems. Ignoring Mulkey's swat at a referee and not calling a "T" on her, was one of many omissions. Calling push-off fouls on Clark that she got away with all year infuriated others (personally, I was glad they finally caught up with her on that infraction). But the seemingly "tech" on Clark for delay of game seemed like a terrible call (although the team had been given a warning for a similar infraction, and that always warrants a technical foul). It just added up in people’s mind that the game was called poorly.
So, while there might be much to discuss about a high-scoring, athletic event, we are derailed into post-game analysis of bad behavior and bad sportsmanship.
It’s a shame.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - martyup - 04-03-2023
Back to the actual game, LSU shot the 3 ball better than they had all year. It seems that Iowa's game plan was to pack the paint and limit Reece's scoring. This backfired big time as LSU kept draining 3s. Even though Reece has to sit with foul trouble, Iowa didn't change their strategy. Iowa couldn't keep up with LSU's scoring when Clark had to sit for long stretches with foul trouble.
The refs were terrible. However, I do agree with the calls made when the defender would place her hand on the hip of the dribbler to slow her down. This is not allowed and should always be whistled.
Also, when the defender attacks a dribbler by sweeping her off hand across the path of the dribbler to poke the ball away, making contact with the arm(s) of the dribbler. This is not a clean steal. Reece was called for one of these late in the game.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - Maple Leaf - 04-03-2023
The Athletic publication conducted an anonymous poll of 85 players at the two super regional sites. The first question was which one player would you add to your team. Brink came in tied for 2nd and Haley Jones came in tied for 4th. The second question was who the most underrated player. Hanna Jump came in tied for 3rd.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - martyup - 04-03-2023
(04-02-2023, 11:22 PM)TheFarm07 Wrote: ESPN released their much-too-early Top 25 Rankings (https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/36044329/womens-college-basketball-way-too-early-top-25-2023-24):
I noticed that they made no mention of the return of Hannah Jump, even though they mentioned Lepolo, Demetre, and Nivar. I wonder if the author was not aware that jump is returning.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - WBB fan - 04-03-2023
(04-03-2023, 11:52 AM)martyup Wrote:(04-02-2023, 11:22 PM)TheFarm07 Wrote: ESPN released their much-too-early Top 25 Rankings (https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/36044329/womens-college-basketball-way-too-early-top-25-2023-24):
I noticed that they made no mention of the return of Hannah Jump, even though they mentioned Lepolo, Demetre, and Nivar. I wonder if the author was not aware that jump is returning.
Interesting "way too early" ranking -- and so different from previous years. Pac12 has 6 of the 25 teams listed, plus Washington "also considered." AND, Stanford is NOT one of the top 2 Pac12 teams -- it's #2 Utah, #6 UCLA, #9 Stanford, #20 Colorado, #21 USC, #25 WSU.
RE: WBB: the NCAA tournament - Spiny_Norman - 04-03-2023
I guess that ESPN is obligated to publish a Way Too Early Top 25 only hours after the previous season has concluded. But any speculation on how teams will fare next season is not worth a whit of attention until you know which players are leaving their current teams and where they are going. Based on recent history, 20-40% or more of the starters for next season's top teams will be transfers (except at Stanford). Every team in this year's Sweet 16 except Iowa had at least one starter who was a transfer.
See the recent comment by the Ole Miss coach.
Quote:Ole Miss coach Yolett McPhee-McCuin says all coaches should be on board with the transfer portal. "Anyone who's whining about it is going to be out of business in two years. You better evolve or you're gone. The portal is part of life, baby. I just embrace it."
Sure would be nice if Stanford had a shot at one or more of these players.
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/35970178/womens-college-basketball-transfer-portal-rankings-2023-24