Shaw on Chryst... - Printable Version

Shaw on Chryst... - Printable Version

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Re: Shaw on Chryst... - 82lsju - 10-27-2017

(10-26-2017, 10:29 PM)RedShift link Wrote:I think Coach Shaw intended to show the country that it's his offense run by his guy, Chryst, that rolls over opponents whether Love plays or not.

or he intended to show the world that Bryce Love is the man and that without him our offense is terrible so Love should win the Heism@n.Â I cannot imagine Penn State looking this bad if Barkley missed a game against a last place Big-10 team

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - donkey687 - 10-27-2017

I think it is pretty clear why Costello didn't play.Â Shaw doesn't think Costello is that much better and didn't have confidence that Costello had a higher probability of scoring on the next drive than Chryst.Â Sure Chryst was having a bad game, but he was just coming off the best game of his career and the for the first time in a month the program appeared to be stable and on an upward trajectory without a QB controversy.Â Every time Shaw sent Chyrst out there, he probably assumed that he would engineer a touchdown drive and overcome his poor start on the prior drives.Â If you have a choice between two guys that you think have a similar probability of leading a TD drive on the next possession, may as well stick the guy out there that won't give a QB controversy when he is successful and the guy who has actually played on the road. Shaw ending up being wrong as Chryst never pulled it together, but it isn't crazy that he thoughtÂ Chyrst had as much of a chance of being successful on the next drive as Costello. We now have a QB controversy again as much as Shaw tried to prevent one.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - gocard14 - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 08:33 AM)donkey687 link Wrote:I think it is pretty clear why Costello didn't play.Â Shaw doesn't think Costello is that much better and didn't have confidence that Costello had a higher probability of scoring on the next drive than Chryst.Â Sure Chryst was having a bad game, but he was just coming off the best game of his career and the for the first time in a month the program appeared to be stable and on an upward trajectory without a QB controversy.Â Every time Shaw sent Chyrst out there, he probably assumed that he would engineer a touchdown drive and overcome his poor start on the prior drives.Â If you have a choice between two guys that you think have a similar probability of leading a TD drive on the next possession, may as well stick the guy out there that won't give a QB controversy when he is successful and the guy who has actually played on the road. Shaw ending up being wrong as Chryst never pulled it together, but it isn't crazy that he thoughtÂ Chyrst had as much of a chance of being successful on the next drive as Costello. We now have a QB controversy again as much as Shaw tried to prevent one.

I disagree. It became perfectly clear rather early in the game that Chryst just didn't have "it" tonight.Â Expecting a return to his overall average level of play after after multiple drives is illogical. Especially when there was no improvement after halftime, where you could argue he has a chance to pull himself together and change the narrative. If your ace starting pitcher with a 2.0 ERA is getting lit up and gives up 12 runs in the first two innings, you pull him. You don't assume that because his average performance is much better then his current performance, he will revert immediately to his average. Some nights people have a bad day/game. Not putting Costello in can only be explained if (1) there is some injury/discipline issue we don't know about or (2) Shaw is convinced that Chryst is better AND pulling him would have deleterious long-term effects on his psyche.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - OutsiderFan - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 08:43 AM)gocard14 link Wrote:I disagree. It became perfectly clear rather early in the game that Chryst just didn't have "it" tonight.Â Expecting a return to his overall average level of play after after multiple drives is illogical. Especially when there was no improvement after halftime, where you could argue he has a chance to pull himself together and change the narrative. If your ace starting pitcher with a 2.0 ERA is getting lit up and gives up 12 runs in the first two innings, you pull him. You don't assume that because his average performance is much better then his current performance, he will revert immediately to his average. Some nights people have a bad day/game. Not putting Costello in can only be explained if (1) there is some injury/discipline issue we don't know about or (2) Shaw is convinced that Chryst is better AND pulling him would have deleterious long-term effects on his psyche.

Even this isn't a good reason.Â Because you have Costello, who has a higher upside, who can play now, and you have the best QB recruit Stanford has had since Luck, behind him, redshirting, in Mills.Â This isn't suppose to be about looking out for the interests of one guy.Â It's suppose to be looking out for the interest of the team, and now I even say the fans, because their support can be fickle, and is absolutely needed by the program.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - martyup - 10-27-2017

Hank, how does your analysis take into account that Shaw was willing to pull Chryst when he was playing well against Utah and Oregon?Â During those games, many were begging for him to just leave one of the QBs in the game and let them keep their momentum.Â Is the Shaw rule that if you start and play well, you will be pulled, and if you start and play poorly, you will stay in the game?Â I'm confused.

Nothing I saw in the Utah and Oregon games made me think that Chryst was better than Costello.Â Of course I trust Shaw to make the right decision on which QB to start.Â But, after making that decision you have to watch the QB's performance and keep weighing your options.Â It was clear last night that Chryst was off.Â It wasn't his OL and it wasn't his receivers and it wasn't that he was playing a tough defense.Â He was performing poorly.Â I can understand leaving him in the game until halftime, but after that it appears stubborn to keep him in the game.

Speaking of stubborn, if I was counting right, I think Shaw ran the jump ball in the corner play five times in a row (including the TD catch).Â I'm not mad about it because I think it is a safe play with a high probability of success.Â But, when we moved up half the distance to the goal line three times we might have just punched it in with an ogre formation.Â

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - washingtonismoney - 10-27-2017

One other odd thing about Chryst's performance. Fans harped on Chryst's immobility -- that despite his physical talents, he didn't scramble for positive yardage or escape the pocket to extend plays.

Last night, we saw some evidence of extended plays and (some very modest) positive yardage scrambles. But then his accuracy and decision making crumbled.

Chryst is like the bottom sheet on a mattress: as soon as you fit one corner of the sheet, the other one pops up and leaves its place.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - Goose - 10-27-2017

I think that we didn't see Costello (assuming there is no injury/other reason) because Shaw was quite aware that if he pulled Chryst, it was going to be real hard to trot him out as the starter against WSU. In the previous games that Costello got a few series, it was clear that that was the plan. It wasn't because Chryst was playing poorly. When we didn't see Costello in the first half, that pretty much took away the "planned few series" option. At that point, if he did come in it was to replace Chryst because Chryst frankly stunk (or worse). At that point, I would argue, Chryst would become Ryan Burns II. If Costello wins the game he would have to be the new starter. No other action would be credible with the players (or the fans, if that matters). Shaw really didn't want to do that, because he apparently is convinced that Chryst is a better choice. Why, I don't know.
Last night, the offense had lots of problems. When things aren't going well, you want your starting QB to rise to the challenge. I think it is fair to say, at this point, that Chryst gets worse when challenged, not better. As I have said previously, Chryst has "ownage" on Oregon, and he knows it. He played great against them, because he really didn't need to. However, when he needs to step up, it seems he goes the opposite direction. This isn't a "one time" event any more. SDSU was similar. It seems unlikely to get better.
To be honest, I am not sure Costello would have been any better. We didn't get to find out. If everything goes according to "plan" against WSU, Chryst will be fine. If the receiver that is supposed to be open is open, Chryst can usually complete the pass, if he isn't already rattled. After the first 3rd and 8, or the first bad play, we could be in trouble.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - CTcard - 10-27-2017

(10-26-2017, 09:52 PM)Boston Card link Wrote:Keller didnt play his best game, obviously.

Ummm, yeah.Â I realize that there is some understatement there, and there is no need to pile on him in public...Â but it was more than just not playing his best game.

BC

There are several comments quite upset about Shaw's words at the press conference.

As always, worrying about what a coach says at a press conference is silly. Occasionally a coach is trying to explain what they really think, but that's rare. Usually a coach is trying to either make a statement to the team or simply trying to push the media off so he can get out of the room and do something he feels is more worthwhile.

In this case it is overly silly. While you can take a sentence or two from Shaw as not reflecting reality, it seems pretty clear to me upon listening to the whole press conference that Shaw was very unhappy with Chryst's play, was very unhappy with all sorts of aspects of the team's play, and occasionally was defaulting to his "protect my guys after a loss" mode. The other thing he was doing was trying to remember to say nice things about OSU. That part is not only proper generically, it was also true that OSU played FAR better than they have over most of the season.

That said, it is perfectly appropriate to be concerned about what Shaw did.

I have some sympathy for the problem. It's very hard to properly manage exchanging QBs, both for the game at hand and for the season. I am not quite sure when the conditions were such that one had to swap for Costello, but Chryst was becoming increasingly rattled, uncertain and gun shy as troubles wore on and this became significantly worse after the interception. That wasn't going to clear mid-game.

An interesting aspect of this situation is that Costello has been playing in every game starting with UCLA. While in the past two games there was some whining amongst fans that swapping "ruined the rhythm" of the QBs, I still don't really see why this was the game with no room for Costello to play.

By the way, from the sideline shots I saw, I thought Costello looked as if he thought he was going to get into the game. Of course making such a determination from what you see on TV is rather suspect, but I still think Shaw was teetering on the edge of making the swap but for some reason just didn't do so.

(10-27-2017, 09:13 AM)martyup link Wrote:Speaking of stubborn, if I was counting right, I think Shaw ran the jump ball in the corner play five times in a row (including the TD catch).Â I'm not mad about it because I think it is a safe play with a high probability of success.Â But, when we moved up half the distance to the goal line three times we might have just punched it in with an ogre formation.

That was an amusing sequence. (Though I think it was merely four straight.)

On the one hand, after two straight PI calls it wouldn't have taken much of a run in the heavy set to get the 3/4 of a yard needed.

On the other hand, OSU never really defended the play adequately.

The first one worked for a TD.
The second one looked like it was about to work except for a rather egregious PI.
The third one was more borderline both as to whether it would have worked and whether it was PI.
The fourth one the pass wasn't good enough (too high if I remember correctly).
It shows the strengths and weaknesses of the play. If you have the height and strength mismatch, it is extremely hard to defend even if you know it is coming. On the other hand, there is room for error: the pass has to be accurate, the receiver has to catch it, and the ref has to call PI if needed.Â

It did feel like some kind of statement, though what statement I am not sure.
To Chryst that he can make the play?
To defenses that they had better watch out for that play?
To the whole offense that, "I know you can run it in under a yard, but you have to be able to execute some basic pass plays as well"?

By the way, if that play actually works, it should work in the middle of the field on say a third and four.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - Hank 91 - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 09:13 AM)martyup link Wrote:Hank, how does your analysis take into account that Shaw was willing to pull Chryst when he was playing well against Utah and Oregon?Â During those games, many were begging for him to just leave one of the QBs in the game and let them keep their momentum.Â Is the Shaw rule that if you start and play well, you will be pulled, and if you start and play poorly, you will stay in the game?Â I'm confused.

Nothing I saw in the Utah and Oregon games made me think that Chryst was better than Costello.Â Of course I trust Shaw to make the right decision on which QB to start.Â But, after making that decision you have to watch the QB's performance and keep weighing your options.Â It was clear last night that Chryst was off.Â It wasn't his OL and it wasn't his receivers and it wasn't that he was playing a tough defense.Â He was performing poorly.Â I can understand leaving him in the game until halftime, but after that it appears stubborn to keep him in the game.

Speaking of stubborn, if I was counting right, I think Shaw ran the jump ball in the corner play five times in a row (including the TD catch).Â I'm not mad about it because I think it is a safe play with a high probability of success.Â But, when we moved up half the distance to the goal line three times we might have just punched it in with an ogre formation.

I've actually been thinking about that this morning. I'd have to go back and look at the specific game situations, but I think Shaw typically goes to the backup on the third series because he's seen enough to have an opinion about the starter in that game. It feels like he doesn't want to make a change just because things aren't going well, but because it's part of the plan. (I realize this is the main criticism people level at him.)

Also, based on what we've heard from the quarterbacks, the backup quarterback gets essentially zero reps during practice. (Costello confirmed this after the UCLA game.) So when both quarterbacks played against Utah, my guess is it's because Chryst's uncertain status led to both players' taking reps during practice. (Remember the depth chart that week: Chryst or Costello.) After Chryst returned to the starting position last week, I'm guessing he also returned to starting reps, meaning that Costello was make to taking "mental reps." For last night's game plan, he might've had three plays, or maybe none at all.

Finally, I need to point this out again. Sometimes people give me much more credit than is due. I am NOT an insider. I have no more information than most fans. All of this is pure speculation.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - Cadwallon - 10-27-2017

It seems to me that Gocard14 got close to the core of the issue when he speculated that "Shaw is convinced that Chryst is better AND pulling him would have deleterious long-term effects on his psyche."Â What I think I saw last night was Chryst hesitating to throw the ball.Â In other words his confidence seemed to be shot perhaps by the early near interceptions.Â He seemed to get markedly worse after them.Â Shaw must believe that Chryst has the physical and some of the mental tools to in theory be a very good quarterback.Â Perhaps he believes Chryst has more upside than Costello or at least is closer to achieving it.Â The problem is that sports in general is replete with people with outstanding potential, but who fail to achieve it because of what's going on between their ears.Â The Oregon may game may have convinced Shaw that Chryst had broken through and he was waiting for Chryst to snap out of it.Â The problem is athletes with these sorts of issues usually just continue to have ups and downs and great inconsistency.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - martyup - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 10:25 AM)Hank 91 link Wrote:Sometimes people give me much more credit than is due.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - Hank 91 - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 10:50 AM)martyup link Wrote:[quote author=Hank 91 link=topic=17799.msg208688#msg208688 date=1509125143]
Sometimes people give me much more credit than is due.

Your opinions are valued here because you offer well reasoned and thoughtful analysis.Â Your posts, among a few other contributors, are what make the C.ardboard special and distinguish it from other websites.
[/quote]

I appreciate that. I just wanted it to be clear to everyone that these are only my thoughts based on the same things everyone else here is seeing and hearing. I've got no more insight than anyone else here.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - washingtonismoney - 10-27-2017

Having listened to Shaw's press conference -- while I'd hesitate to put too much weight on anything he says in such situations -- it's notable that when directly asked about Chryst's hold on the starting job, he avoids the question. That's not typical behavior of a coach committed to his starter.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - PalmTree - 10-27-2017

(10-26-2017, 10:01 PM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:[quote author=Boston Card link=topic=17799.msg208498#msg208498 date=1509079945]

Keller didnt play his best game, obviously.

Ummm, yeah.Â I realize that there is some understatement there, and there is no need to pile on him in public...Â but it was more than just not playing his best game.

BC

The question Shaw needs to be asked is:Â What would it have taken to replace Chryst with Costello?
[/quote]

....more like, "So ....how's your pooch doing?"Â Â ::)

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - norcard - 10-27-2017

It was like watching a redux of nunes against the huskies when stanford lost.Â Shaw did not turn to Nottingham or Anyone else despite the dumpster fire burning in front of him.Â Hindsight was 20/20 but Costello is a proven commodity

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - yvonne - 10-27-2017

I suspect that there was a reason that Chryst remained in the game. It could be that Costello was injured or being disciplined, or it could be that Chryst was being given a full game to maintain his starting position. This was the most likely game to try to make that evaluation. Shaw saw the same game and stats that fans did, and he's not an idiot. Moreover, a coach just isn't going to negatively evaluate a player's performance in a press conference.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - gocard14 - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 12:08 PM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:Having listened to Shaw's press conference -- while I'd hesitate to put too much weight on anything he says in such situations -- it's notable that when directly asked about Chryst's hold on the starting job, he avoids the question. That's not typical behavior of a coach committed to his starter.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - deepred - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 01:36 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:I suspect that there was a reason that Chryst remained in the game. It could be that Costello was injured or being disciplined, or it could be that Chryst was being given a full game to maintain his starting position. This was the most likely game to try to make that evaluation. Shaw saw the same game and stats that fans did, and he's not an idiot. Moreover, a coach just isn't going to negatively evaluate a player's performance in a press conference.

Shaw did have negative evaluations on his players here.
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=21176971 - "Quarterback didn't play well" at 0:19

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - washingtonismoney - 10-27-2017

(10-27-2017, 01:38 PM)gocard14 link Wrote:[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=17799.msg208710#msg208710 date=1509131313]
Having listened to Shaw's press conference -- while I'd hesitate to put too much weight on anything he says in such situations -- it's notable that when directly asked about Chryst's hold on the starting job, he avoids the question. That's not typical behavior of a coach committed to his starter.

Im guessing he wants to look at the film before saying or deciding much, to figure out how much blame goes to Chryst vs others. I think we forget how limited the view is from the sideline. There is a reason that most camera angles are from higher up and most coordinators are in the press box.
[/quote]

Well, sure, except Shaw has frequently issued fiery defenses of his players, or quarterbacks, without the benefit of tape. I think you have a point, but that you're underselling its implications. If Shaw has to look at the tape to decide whether or not Chryst ought to be a starter, that suggests a fundamental ambivalence which reflects a lack of commitment. On that side of the spectrum, the job is potentially Costello's to take. If on the other hand, his evasion of the comment is simply delaying the inevitable switch to Costello, then again the job is Costello's.

So it's fair to say there are a spectrum of possibilities, from ambivalence on Chryst to certainty that it's time to turn the page (at least for the moment), but the signal sent by the absence of defense is an important one.

Re: Shaw on Chryst... - Viking_Guy - 10-27-2017

Was listening to the third and early fourth quarter last night on the radio broadcast, and they were definitely not cutting the decision-making any slack, either by Shaw or by Chryst.Â They seemed dumbfounded that Chryst kept going back in.

At one point late in the third quarter, they pointed out that Shaw had gone over to Chryst, who was sitting on the bench, and thought that Shaw had said "Get your helmet on and go stand with your teammates." I don't know if anyone in attendance saw it, but that really didn't sound like good body language from Chryst, even if Shaw was really telling him he was going back in.

I may have to just listen to Husak et al from now on - they didn't seem hesitant to point out that Chryst wasn't making progressions, that his throws were late (and as a result often behind receivers), and that he should have been intercepted several more times - that he was making the same read on a particular play/route over and over again and throwing it into the same coverage.

And that fourth and 10 play was pretty much all Kaden Smith going over the DB and snatching the ball away.Â Then he completed (badly) a short throw where Scarlett had to reach back and nearly batted the ball up for an interception, an inside shovel pass to Schultz, and a lob.Â Not exactly an inspiring sequence, despite the eventual result.

VG