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Perez is a minus - Printable Version

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Re: Perez is a minus - Mick - 12-02-2017

(12-02-2017, 10:17 AM)cardcrimson link Wrote:[quote author=winflop link=topic=18248.msg216511#msg216511 date=1512233069]
[quote author=ChicagoTree link=topic=18248.msg216501#msg216501 date=1512230537]
[quote author=FarmBoy link=topic=18248.msg216498#msg216498 date=1512230149]
Calling out individual players like this is below the character of the discussion board. The coaches decide who plays. There's no benefit to assuming the players are doing anything other than trying their best.

In the thread title no less.
[/quote]

I have no doubt he is trying his best and the coaches are doing their best to develop him. But the performance on the field is not where it needs to be for a starting ILB in a major college program.
[/quote]
The message board should indeed be a safe place for all. No critiques or criticisms allowed. Orange slices and participation trophies for everybody.
[/quote]

You have GOT to be kid--

Oh wait, you are kidding.

I don't think anyone is saying that these fine young men will be a failure in life.  I think we are merely observing players and pointing out our observations.  I doubt that many players spend much time on this or any other board, especially given the casual nature of the fans here.  I think they get all the criticism they want or need in the video briefings subsequent to the game, and those criticisms come from people far, far more knowledgeable than any of us.

I remember my very last athletic event in high school.  110 mm HH, I was in second until I hit the last hurdle, finished fourth.  My granddad, who'd been a state champ pole vaulter and high jumper said one thing and one thing only: "you'd have made regionals if you didn't hit that last hurdle."  Did I melt into a big, snowflake puddle?  Nope.  He was right, and I didn't think any more or less of him.

Re: Perez is a minus - ChicagoCard - 12-02-2017

I assume this isn't likely to go over very well, but many of the comments about Perez just strike me as lacking-in-any-nuance, declaration-type statements that he is fundamentally a bad player, leading me to believe some posters fill a void after a loss by the team through making such posts. Lance Anderson commented in an interview earlier in the season that the loss of Barton hurt the team a lot. He specifically said: "hurt us a lot". So there must be something about Perez' athletic versatility that puts him ahead of Branch or Palma. Sorry for being argumentative. As has been touched on in other threads, the position group area holding the team back the most is defensive line (players not named Harrison Phillips). I so wish there were a way for that picture to change this off-season.

Re: Perez is a minus - Phogge - 12-02-2017

I'm sure that Johnnie Lemaster was a fine person. But he was the worst shortstop in the history of baseball. And everybody knew it and said it. The Giants knew it too and he was gone. Perez is probably a fine kid but he was not a positive defensive presence last night plus he committed a bad penalty. He has his scholie and his future, good luck to him. But they need somebody in that position next year, particularly with Phillips leaving.

If you don't like the opinion downvote me. As for orange slices and trophies, thank god it wasn't the norm in 1941.

Re: Perez is a minus - ChicagoCard - 12-02-2017

In my mind it's nothing personal, I didn't have you in mind specifically in my reply. I was just making a general comment about how I see Perez taking on more than his share of the team's overall failings. I have no idea what to make of your Johnnie LeMaster comment (I remember him well) other than that you seem to have a need to see Perez in black and white terms as an unjustified-in-degree reason for the team's loss yesterday. I hardly think Perez as a college linebacker (forced into a starting role due to injury to one, probably two players ahead of him) warrants any sort of comparison to LeMaster who was a non-contributor as a hitter and overrated on defense.

Re: Perez is a minus - qwerty49 - 12-02-2017

(12-02-2017, 08:51 AM)ATLcard link Wrote:I don't recall ever seeing a starting ILB 'watching' as many plays as Perez.

This is the issue.  It wasn't just the pass to the TE.  Running plays as well, and a caught-in-the-cookie-jar penalty.  And not just this game, to be blunt.  Perhaps the real takeaway is that we don't have anyone else who can play better.  And that this season was very close to being quite a bit more successful.

One of my friends observed that we looked tired, especially on D.  That might explain the late coverage, pathetic arm tackling and getting constantly juked, by nearly every member of the D not named Harrison Phillips.  All of that might be excused had we not shown that we are capable of playing better.  That is the source of the frustration.

Reality bites.  Chryst has received much more criticism here.  And Burns before him.  I'll bet Josh Nunes did too.  I wasn't on this board back then, but I wager Caleb Bowman got his share for just one dropped ball.   

Our opponents watch film.  There have been pass plays all during this year and last where both Palma and Perez were specifically picked on.  That's not a coincidence.

Unfortunately Perez is a tweener IMHO.  Too slow to be a SS and too small to be a run-stopper at ILB.  If you watch the replays of his run tackles he's most often getting driven backwards. It's not his fault he's not built like Skov.  He's trying his best, but pretty much all year, aside from Okereke in the 2nd half of the season, ILB play has been an obvious factor in our inability to stop the run.  Not the only factor, but a big one.
 

Re: Perez is a minus - ChicagoCard - 12-02-2017

(12-02-2017, 11:59 AM)qwerty49 link Wrote:Unfortunately Perez is a tweener IMHO.  Too slow to be a SS and too small to be a run-stopper at ILB.

Yeah, I always wondered about that.

Re: Perez is a minus - Langdude - 12-02-2017

(12-02-2017, 12:10 PM)ChicagoTree link Wrote:[quote author=qwerty49 link=topic=18248.msg216549#msg216549 date=1512241188]
Unfortunately Perez is a tweener IMHO.  Too slow to be a SS and too small to be a run-stopper at ILB.

Yeah, I always wondered about that.
[/quote]

I actually asked after the first few games, when it was clear that Barton and Okereke were the ILBs and that Palma had mysteriously gone from starter to scrub, if Perez should be moved to SS. I was answered that he was not fast enough. But it seems he has as much speed as many of our sufficient SSs of the past who were stout against the run and punished receptions over the middle. (Seyon Albert. Dallas Lloyd. I invite you to name some here.) Perhaps we play more two-deep now.

-m.

Re: Perez is a minus - Mick - 12-02-2017

(12-02-2017, 11:34 AM)Phogge link Wrote:I'm sure that Johnnie Lemaster was a fine person. But he was the worst shortstop in the history of baseball. And everybody knew it and said it. The Giants knew it too and he was gone.


Not really.  The Giants kept him on their roster from 1975 to 1985, and he played 100+ games for them for seven years in a row.  He was so unappealing to the Giants fans and they booed him so loud, long and often that in 1979 he went to the plate with "BOO" on the back of his jersey -- and played for the Giants for six more years after that.  In 1985, he played for the Giants, Pirates and Indians, and all three teams finished last.  Incidentally, LeMaster was the sixth overall pick in the 1973 MLB draft, but it was a very, very weak draft.  Dave Winfield and Robin Yount were the stars, both picked before LeMaster.  Eight of the 24 1st round draft picks never made the majors.  I only recognized 1/2 dozen others.  Of course, there were lots of good picks in later rounds, including Mike Krukow (8th) and Jack Clark (13th).

As an interesting side note, LeMaster was on a very cool 1987 Oakland A's team with Canseco, rookie Mark McGuire, Reggie Jackson in his last year playing baseball, Dave Henderson, Terry Steinbach, Carney Lansford, Dwayne Murphy, Ron Cey, Dave Stewart, Gary Lavelle and Dennis Eckersley just making the transition to reliever.  they had 1,679,000 in attendance that year, 200k more than 2017. 

That team hit 199 home runs.* 

*If you're a Giants fan, that's when a batter hits the ball so hard it goes out of the playing field and the batter is entitled to run around all the bases and score himself.  It is a legal play.

Re: Perez is a minus - FarmBoy - 12-02-2017

(12-02-2017, 09:01 AM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:[quote author=FarmBoy link=topic=18248.msg216498#msg216498 date=1512230149]
Calling out individual players like this is below the character of the discussion board. The coaches decide who plays. There's no benefit to assuming the players are doing anything other than trying their best.

I don't quite get this sentiment. If you're going to discuss the game, it seems odd not to discuss the individual players' performance. Perez's was poor. He may have been trying his best, but it wasn't good enough. None of this is saying Perez is somehow a bad person, just that his performance was inadequate.

There might be a point, as ATLcard, where the amount of abuse is scapegoating one kid for bad or malicious reasons, but there's no getting around the reality that Perez had a very dumb penalty and got roasted in coverage multiple times. To Perez's credit, he'd upgraded his play in the latter half of the season, but the championship game was a reversion to previous form.a
[/quote]

The majority of the follow on comments were substantive. But I thought the post title "Perez is a minus" and comment of "just horrible" does not reflect well on the fan base. I'm glad those who replied added color and perspective. I would personally not frequent a board where that was the norm. I think comments on someone's abilities to fulfill the demands of their position or the relative merits of one player vs another are fine. But a simple ad hominem attack is not cool. If it's cool for you, great. Just my opinion.

Re: Perez is a minus - Goose - 12-02-2017

(12-02-2017, 11:59 AM)qwerty49 link Wrote:Too slow to be a SS and too small to be a run-stopper at ILB.
Interesting observation. My criticism of Perez has always centered around him being too slow to play even at ILB  :). Perez seems basically unable to cover a receiver who is running across the field unless the QB throws the ball while the receiver is still approaching Perez. Once the receiver goes by, he will be wide open. The few times Perez has looked OK on pass defense were because the QB threw the ball too soon while the receiver was running toward coverage, not away from it. It may be considered a "scheme" problem that he is ever asked to do this but you can only have 11 guys out there. Sometimes, he has to do it, and he hasn't been able to do so effectively.

Re: Perez is a minus - qwerty49 - 12-02-2017

(12-02-2017, 02:20 PM)Goose link Wrote:[quote author=qwerty49 link=topic=18248.msg216549#msg216549 date=1512241188]
Too slow to be a SS and too small to be a run-stopper at ILB.
Interesting observation. My criticism of Perez has always centered around him being too slow to play even at ILB  :). Perez seems basically unable to cover a receiver who is running across the field unless the QB throws the ball while the receiver is still approaching Perez. Once the receiver goes by, he will be wide open. The few times Perez has looked OK on pass defense were because the QB threw the ball too soon while the receiver was running toward coverage, not away from it. It may be considered a "scheme" problem that he is ever asked to do this but you can only have 11 guys out there. Sometimes, he has to do it, and he hasn't been able to do so effectively.
[/quote]

The problem is mainly on those crossing routes or delayed drag routes over the middle.  Perez always seems to be playing zone and not the man. I can’t pretend to know the scheme but if it’s man he’s late and if it’s zone he’s releasing too soon.


Re: Perez is a minus - Durty Nelly - 12-02-2017

(12-02-2017, 02:45 PM)qwerty49 link Wrote:[quote author=Goose link=topic=18248.msg216588#msg216588 date=1512249656]
[quote author=qwerty49 link=topic=18248.msg216549#msg216549 date=1512241188]
Too slow to be a SS and too small to be a run-stopper at ILB.
Interesting observation. My criticism of Perez has always centered around him being too slow to play even at ILB  :). Perez seems basically unable to cover a receiver who is running across the field unless the QB throws the ball while the receiver is still approaching Perez. Once the receiver goes by, he will be wide open. The few times Perez has looked OK on pass defense were because the QB threw the ball too soon while the receiver was running toward coverage, not away from it. It may be considered a "scheme" problem that he is ever asked to do this but you can only have 11 guys out there. Sometimes, he has to do it, and he hasn't been able to do so effectively.
[/quote]

The problem is mainly on those crossing routes or delayed drag routes over the middle.  Perez always seems to be playing zone and not the man. I can’t pretend to know the scheme but if it’s man he’s late and if it’s zone he’s releasing too soon.
[/quote]

Which of our other ILBs do any better? Last night all of the LBs and DBs had problems with the SC athletes in space.  The pass rush was allowing Darnold to much time when he was able to make big plays.

Re: Perez is a minus - qwerty49 - 12-02-2017

(12-02-2017, 06:38 PM)Durty Nelly link Wrote:[quote author=qwerty49 link=topic=18248.msg216597#msg216597 date=1512251113]
[quote author=Goose link=topic=18248.msg216588#msg216588 date=1512249656]
[quote author=qwerty49 link=topic=18248.msg216549#msg216549 date=1512241188]
Too slow to be a SS and too small to be a run-stopper at ILB.
Interesting observation. My criticism of Perez has always centered around him being too slow to play even at ILB  :). Perez seems basically unable to cover a receiver who is running across the field unless the QB throws the ball while the receiver is still approaching Perez. Once the receiver goes by, he will be wide open. The few times Perez has looked OK on pass defense were because the QB threw the ball too soon while the receiver was running toward coverage, not away from it. It may be considered a "scheme" problem that he is ever asked to do this but you can only have 11 guys out there. Sometimes, he has to do it, and he hasn't been able to do so effectively.
[/quote]

The problem is mainly on those crossing routes or delayed drag routes over the middle.  Perez always seems to be playing zone and not the man. I can’t pretend to know the scheme but if it’s man he’s late and if it’s zone he’s releasing too soon.
[/quote]

Which of our other ILBs do any better? Last night all of the LBs and DBs had problems with the SC athletes in space.  The pass rush was allowing Darnold to much time when he was able to make big plays.
[/quote]

The answer to your question is nobody, which is apparently why Perez starts. That doesn’t mean ILB is not a gaping hole in our D.

For that matter, OLB has had its problems this year too, especially earlier when it came to setting the edge against the run. Losing contain was a big problem for Kalambayi earlier this year.

I’m not convinced about our LB coaching. Some guys regressed, some didn’t develop, some never stepped up. Okereke really the only exception.


Re: Perez is a minus - winflop - 12-02-2017

I'd rather have had Palma or Branch instead. At least those guys could do one thing well. The only positive development I saw this year from Perez is that he wasn't out of position nearly as often. But he still gets beaten on man pass coverage and he's a poor run stopper.