WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - Printable Version
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RE: WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - 81alum - 12-19-2018
I've been reading the thread over at Vol Nation
https://www.volnation.com/forum/threads/game-thread-lady-vols-vs-stanford.300033/page-7
There are a few useful comments. I think this one strikes me:
Losing sucks, but when a team shoots 14-24 from 3 thats not a bad way to do it.
It reflects my own insecurity about our team. What I am not sure about is whether we played well enough to win if we were having an average three point shooting night, or even a sub-par three point shooting performance. Is our team resilient enough to win in a big game even when the long range shots are not dropping? Or are we just so good at getting open shots and have so many shooters that we can count on this kind of performance on a regular basis? Other than the exceptional three point shooting, we would have lost to Baylor and Tennessee? It is not an easy question to answer.
In other words, are we a versatile and resilient offense that can score as much as it needs to in a variety of ways, or is our identity going to be "live and die by the three." In past years, too much reliance on the three led to erratic up-and-down seasons. At some point during the Pac 12 season we will find out.
I don't think we know the answer yet. It will be largely determined by how well Maya develops, and yesterday was encouraging. If she is able to scoop up offensive misses from three point shots and put them back in, that would go a long ways to evening out the erratic nature of scoring with three point shooters. She took a couple of steps in the right direction yesterday.
RE: WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - BobK - 12-19-2018
Last night Oregon best Mississippi State
Ionescu controlled the 4th qtr. I only watched the 4th qtr due to the Stanford men playing but the 6-7 Mississippi State post was on the bench the entire time as was Boley.
Agree with Bos Card Williams can use a breather and i thought Brown looked good
RE: WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - Spike - 12-19-2018
It sure is nice to have five scorers on the court. Hard to win when only
three players have offensive weapons.
And how about Jenna Brown!
Tara put her in during critical moments and she definitely held her own.
Yet another very promising weapon!
Psyched!
RE: WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - TheWildJacko - 12-19-2018
It does seem like we rely on the 3-point game to a high degree this season. However, we also seem to much better at it than in previous seasons.
We already have 1 of the top 3, 2 of the top 10, and 3 off the top 20 team 3-point shooting performances of all time through our first 9 games (16, 15 and 14 made, respectively). We've also had a 13-three and an 11-three night.
The 16-three night was tied for 2nd most attempts (41) in team history. 16/41 is still nearly 40% overall—a good but not overwhelmingly good percentage. However, the other nights were 15/32, 11/22, 13/30 and 14/24—all well over 40%, and the latest well over 50% against TN on their home court. So in over half our games we've hit 11 or more 3's, and in all 5 of those games we shot at a respectable percentage. In our one loss vs. Gonzaga, we hit 9 3's at 40.9%, but also only shot 43.9% overall and left 10 FTs on the table in a 6-point game. FTs and TOs seem to be our biggest problems at the moment.
Compared to past teams since 3's entered the stat sheets, we rank at or near the top in:
- 3-pointers made per game: 11.0, #1 and well above #2 at 7.37
- 3-pointers taken per game: 26.44, #1 (#2 is last year's 22.29)
- 3-point percentage: .416, #3 and 1 of only 4 teams to record a higher-than-40% mark; two of the other 3 were Azzi's junior and senior years (the other was 1999-2000). In Azzi's final playing years, we hit 135 and 177 3's total for those two seasons; we have 99 already this season.
So it is worth some concern regarding what happens if some team takes away the three, but also worth noting that our hot shooting doesn't seem to be a fluke. We might just be the best outside shooting team in Stanford history.
It's not out of the question that Smith and Williams could both break the record for most 3's in a season this year if they keep up their current pace. The record is 96, shared by Jeanette Pohlen and Karlie Samuelson; Alanna would need 36 games to tie at her current pace, and Kiana would need only 34 to break it. Their current-pace maximums (for 39 games) would be 104 (Alanna) and 112.6 (Kiana).
RE: WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - 81alum - 12-19-2018
Interesting statistic about this game: we scored more points against Tennessee in their house than anyone else since 1987, and came within 2 points of setting the all time record.
https://www.knoxnews.com/story/sports/college/university-of-tennessee/womens-basketball/2018/12/18/live-updates-ut-lady-vols-vs-stanford-matchup-top-10-teams/2333204002/
Holly looked lost at the press conference. Said that Stanford didn't do anything that they didn't expect and prepare for. "We shot too many threes" said Warlick, noting that it was not their game. In other words, our defense forced them outside by playing zone or sagging man, and Tennessee could not punish it for playing so tightly around the basket. We traded away open jumpers outside by taking away lanes inside. This also helped our defensive rebounding--Holly complained that they got very few O-boards for their style of offense.
RE: WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - BobK - 12-20-2018
Coach speak for “I should coach this team”
RE: WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - jonnyss - 12-23-2018
i have been waiting for dijonai to play like this since she arrived. she was such a star in high school until her knee injury. 27 ppg and a nation-leading 21 rebounds per game her junior year.
hooray for dijonai!
RE: WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - M T - 12-24-2018
(12-18-2018, 09:51 PM)81alum Wrote: And highlights:
...
I particularly like Carrington's Euro step at about 30 seconds in on the highlights.
DiJonai’s “Euro step” in the Tennessee game was an obvious travel to me. Upon replay, the announcers referred to it as a "skip-to-my-lou".
She had the ball in two hands with her left foot down. She skipped forward and landed on the same (left) foot. That’s a travel (at least by NCAA rules). AFAIK, there is no way to have a single foot down and move it (while the other foot is up) without it being a travel. For some reason that I still don’t understand, the refs did not call it.
So I reviewed the rules and the play. (Unfortunately, it appears that adding attachments doesn't work. I had pictures from the replay showing the relevant portions of her move. I will leave the references to the pictures in, in case this gets fixed.)
Quote:Art. 4. The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come to
rest in one or both hands;
b. The dribbler touches the ball with both hands simultaneously;
. . .
In the first picture, DiJonai, who had been dribbling, grabs the ball with both hands as her right foot is on the floor. (Don’t let the shadows fool you, her right foot is on the floor. She pushes off that foot immediately next.) Touching the ball with two hands (or carrying the ball) ends her dribble.
Quote:Section 5. Traveling
Art. 1. A player shall not travel with the ball.
Art. 2. Traveling occurs when a player holding the ball moves a foot or both
feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits described in this section.
Art. 3. A player who catches the ball with both feet on the playing court may
pivot, using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.
Art. 4. A player who catches the ball while moving or ends a dribble may stop
and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the
pivot foot;
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously
land on both, in which case neither foot can be the pivot foot.
b. When one foot is on the playing court:
1. That foot shall be the pivot foot when the other foot touches in a step;
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both,
in which case neither foot can then be the pivot foot.
Art. 5. After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before
the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. The pivot foot shall not be lifted before the ball is released to start a
dribble.
Art. 6. After coming to a stop when neither foot can be the pivot foot:
a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the playing
court before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. Neither foot shall be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.
The travelling rules describes what is legal footwork. Everything else is travelling.
In DiJonai’s case, her left foot was down when she touched the ball with two hands. (She would also have not been legal had she touched the ball with two hands while both feet were off the floor.) In this case Article 4b applies.
She then jumps off that foot (picture 2) and lands on that foot again (picture 3). Her footwork does not satisfy 4b1 as she didn’t set her other (right) foot down. Her footwork does not satisfy 4b2 because she did not simultaneously land on both feet. (In picture 4 you can see her continue on until her right foot lands.)
Since she was holding the ball and moving her feet in excess of the prescribed limits, she travelled.
So, what variation of her move would be legal?
1) If she jumped off her left foot before either carrying the ball or touching it with two hands. Then she would have landed on one foot followed by the other (4a2). It would be hard to jump without carrying the ball. Maybe something like a hard dribble that bounced the ball over her head, so she went up and grabbed it, like an Alley-oop. (Note that, IMO, a player should be called as carrying the ball if they grab it from above (with big, strong hands).)
2) If she landed with both feet simultaneously after the jump off her left foot, and then shot the ball before either foot moved on the floor (either or both feet can leave the floor as long as she doesn’t try to dribble).
Suppose she ended her dribble (by touching the ball with both hands) a little earlier, before she lifted her right (back) foot (this was close). In that case, Article 3 applies (apparently, even though the wording doesn't mention ending the dribble): Either foot may be her pivot foot. The right foot is immediately lifted, causing the left foot to become the pivot foot (Art 3). Article 5 applies to this situation. She follows neither 5a (her pivot foot does touch the ground again) nor 5b. This is still travelling.
RE: WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - 81alum - 12-24-2018
(12-24-2018, 02:26 AM)M T Wrote:Thank you for that detailed analysis!(12-18-2018, 09:51 PM)81alum Wrote: And highlights:
...
I particularly like Carrington's Euro step at about 30 seconds in on the highlights.
DiJonai’s “Euro step” in the Tennessee game was an obvious travel to me. Upon replay, the announcers referred to it as a "skip-to-my-lou".
She had the ball in two hands with her left foot down. She skipped forward and landed on the same (left) foot. That’s a travel (at least by NCAA rules). AFAIK, there is no way to have a single foot down and move it (while the other foot is up) without it being a travel. For some reason that I still don’t understand, the refs did not call it.
So I reviewed the rules and the play. (Unfortunately, it appears that adding attachments doesn't work. I had pictures from the replay showing the relevant portions of her move. I will leave the references to the pictures in, in case this gets fixed.)
Quote:Art. 4. The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come to
rest in one or both hands;
b. The dribbler touches the ball with both hands simultaneously;
. . .
In the first picture, DiJonai, who had been dribbling, grabs the ball with both hands as her right foot is on the floor. (Don’t let the shadows fool you, her right foot is on the floor. She pushes off that foot immediately next.) Touching the ball with two hands (or carrying the ball) ends her dribble.
Quote:Section 5. Traveling
Art. 1. A player shall not travel with the ball.
Art. 2. Traveling occurs when a player holding the ball moves a foot or both
feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits described in this section.
Art. 3. A player who catches the ball with both feet on the playing court may
pivot, using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.
Art. 4. A player who catches the ball while moving or ends a dribble may stop
and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the
pivot foot;
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously
land on both, in which case neither foot can be the pivot foot.
b. When one foot is on the playing court:
1. That foot shall be the pivot foot when the other foot touches in a step;
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both,
in which case neither foot can then be the pivot foot.
Art. 5. After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before
the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. The pivot foot shall not be lifted before the ball is released to start a
dribble.
Art. 6. After coming to a stop when neither foot can be the pivot foot:
a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the playing
court before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. Neither foot shall be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.
The travelling rules describes what is legal footwork. Everything else is travelling.
In DiJonai’s case, her left foot was down when she touched the ball with two hands. (She would also have not been legal had she touched the ball with two hands while both feet were off the floor.) In this case Article 4b applies.
She then jumps off that foot (picture 2) and lands on that foot again (picture 3). Her footwork does not satisfy 4b1 as she didn’t set her other (right) foot down. Her footwork does not satisfy 4b2 because she did not simultaneously land on both feet. (In picture 4 you can see her continue on until her right foot lands.)
Since she was holding the ball and moving her feet in excess of the prescribed limits, she travelled.
So, what variation of her move would be legal?
1) If she jumped off her left foot before either carrying the ball or touching it with two hands. Then she would have landed on one foot followed by the other (4a2). It would be hard to jump without carrying the ball. Maybe something like a hard dribble that bounced the ball over her head, so she went up and grabbed it, like an Alley-oop. (Note that, IMO, a player should be called as carrying the ball if they grab it from above (with big, strong hands).)
2) If she landed with both feet simultaneously after the jump off her left foot, and then shot the ball before either foot moved on the floor (either or both feet can leave the floor as long as she doesn’t try to dribble).
Suppose she ended her dribble (by touching the ball with both hands) a little earlier, before she lifted her right (back) foot (this was close). In that case, Article 3 applies (apparently, even though the wording doesn't mention ending the dribble): Either foot may be her pivot foot. The right foot is immediately lifted, causing the left foot to become the pivot foot (Art 3). Article 5 applies to this situation. She follows neither 5a (her pivot foot does touch the ground again) nor 5b. This is still travelling.
I've never understood what is and what is not traveling, since sometimes it seems to be more a matter of tradition than a matter of rules--a little like the baseball strike zone. Did the announcers jokingly call it the "Eurostep" because in Europe it is more acceptable?
Whether legal or not, I thought it was a thing of beauty. I wonder if the refs gave her the benefit of the doubt just because of the virtuosity of the play.
RE: WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - M T - 12-24-2018
(Note that these videos are under "archive" so may not reflect current NBA rules. NBA apparently counts steps rather than defining the pivot foot and use "control" of the ball rather than "ends the dribble".)
The video at
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-move-euro-step/
shows a move ("Euro step") that is legal by NBA rules, and I believe legal by NCAA WBK rules.
This video is basically what DiJonai did, and is noted as a travel even in the NBA
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/hop-travel-player-jumps-off-of-and-then-lands-on-the-same-foot-2/
This is another common travelling violation in NCAA Women that is rarely called.
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/travel-on-the-run-offensive-player-takes-3-steps-after-receiving-the-ball/
In NCAA Women Basketball, the first foot to hit would be the pivot foot. The next time it touches the ground, it becomes a travel.
RE: WBB: Stanford 95 Tennessee 85 - 81alum - 12-24-2018
(12-24-2018, 12:17 PM)M T Wrote: (Note that these videos are under "archive" so may not reflect current NBA rules. NBA apparently counts steps rather than defining the pivot foot and use "control" of the ball rather than "ends the dribble".)
The video at
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-move-euro-step/
shows a move ("Euro step") that is legal by NBA rules, and I believe legal by NCAA WBK rules.
This video is basically what DiJonai did, and is noted as a travel even in the NBA
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/hop-travel-player-jumps-off-of-and-then-lands-on-the-same-foot-2/
This is another common travelling violation in NCAA Women that is rarely called.
http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/travel-on-the-run-offensive-player-takes-3-steps-after-receiving-the-ball/
In NCAA Women Basketball, the first foot to hit would be the pivot foot. The next time it touches the ground, it becomes a travel.
Those are very helpful videos.