Timing for coaching changes? - Printable Version

Timing for coaching changes? - Printable Version

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RE: Timing for coaching changes? - BostonCard - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 10:41 AM)GK3 Wrote: It generally seems to take about 4 years of true incompetence to get someone fired unless you are named Teevens or Harris.

This seems like a bit of a no true Scottsman argument. I'm racking my brain for a coach who has had four years of "true incompetence" before being fired. In addition to the two you mentioned, I think Rachel Hanson was fired after three years (2015 - 2017). I'm not sure we have seen any other recent history of "true incompetence". Maybe Johnny Dawkins, though I wouldn't call it true incompetence so much as "consistent underperformance" (we did win two NIT championships and make it to a sweet sixteen in his eight years).

BC

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - oldalum - 01-06-2020

As a point of contrast in both records and actions, after suffering a 3-9 season this year, Derek Mason at Vanderbilt fired both his offensive and defensive coordinators (the latter was Jason Tarver, Mason's former co-defensive coordinator at Stanford in 2011).

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - Phogge - 01-06-2020

I’d say Connie Mac but he was also the owner of the A’s.

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - BostonCard - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 11:57 AM)oldalum Wrote: As a point of contrast in both records and actions, after suffering a 3-9 season this year, Derek Mason at Vanderbilt fired both his offensive and defensive coordinators (the latter was Jason Tarver, Mason's former co-defensive coordinator at Stanford in 2011).

The difference is that for Mason the 2019 season was his sixth, none of which have been winning seasons (he's had two seasons where he has qualified for a bowl game after going 6-6). For Shaw, the 2019 season was his ninth, none of which had been losing seasons before this one.

One could legitimately wonder whether Mason's ceiling with his existing coordinators was 6-6, and whether he ought to be able to do better, as his predecessor James Franklin was able to do (he had two 9-4 seasons before bolting to Penn State), and thus that after six seasons, immediate action is required. On the other hand, one could legitimately debate whether Shaw's 4-8 season was a blip or a sign of permanent mediocrity (or worse) that requires immediate action. I know some people have made up their mind on this, but the case is far from clear.

BC

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - CTcard - 01-06-2020

(01-05-2020, 01:37 PM)Brickcity Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 01:04 PM)JohnR34231 Wrote: Fisher DeBerry was a highly successful coach at Air Force who fell on hard times. He was finally told he had no choice but to make radical changes to his staff. He resigned rather than do it.
I wonder if Shaw would react that way.

Of course, it seems highly unlikely Muir would ever push it with Shaw. And, if he did, my guess is that Shaw would also quit.

Without any comment upon the current situation at Stanford, in general I think it is a bad idea for an athletic director to dictate staff to a head coach.

It's the head coach's job to run the football program. If you don't have enough confidence in your head coach to hire his own staff, it's not clear how you could possibly have enough confidence in him to be your head coach. It's also hard to see that many ADs would have the knowledge of the coaching candidates and the inner workings of the team to reliably know which coaches are likely to be replaced by upgrades.

When you no longer have confidence in your head coach to run your program, it's time to get a new head coach.

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - BostonCard - 01-06-2020

I very much agree with you CT that an AD should not micromanage to the degree of suggesting specific personnel changes. On the other hand, any sort of competent review process would identify performance deficiencies and ask what sorts of remedial measures will be undertaken. A competent review process would also ask the coach for feedback about the coordinators and assistants. If that feedback didn't match performance, you would ask the coach about that discrepancy (and something like, "considering the injury situation and the fact that we were starting three freshmen on the offensive line, Carberry did a great job", could be a very appropriate answer). If the feedback identified areas of concern, you would follow up with a request for a remedial plan or ask whether personnel actions were indicated. The bottom line is that while you are absolutely right that the AD shouldn't dictate personnel decisions, he (or she) should be able to work with the coach to come to a consensus decision.

BC

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - ColoradoTree - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 01:16 PM)CTcard Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 01:37 PM)Brickcity Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 01:04 PM)JohnR34231 Wrote: Fisher DeBerry was a highly successful coach at Air Force who fell on hard times. He was finally told he had no choice but to make radical changes to his staff. He resigned rather than do it.
I wonder if Shaw would react that way.

Of course, it seems highly unlikely Muir would ever push it with Shaw. And, if he did, my guess is that Shaw would also quit.

Without any comment upon the current situation at Stanford, in general I think it is a bad idea for an athletic director to dictate staff to a head coach.

It's the head coach's job to run the football program. If you don't have enough confidence in your head coach to hire his own staff, it's not clear how you could possibly have enough confidence in him to be your head coach. It's also hard to see that many ADs would have the knowledge of the coaching candidates and the inner workings of the team to reliably know which coaches are likely to be replaced by upgrades.

When you no longer have confidence in your head coach to run your program, it's time to get a new head coach.

I'm mostly with you, but not entirely. To dictate wholesale staff changes? I'm with you. But I think it's reasonable to think (1) David Shaw is the best possible head coach for our program for numerous reasons, and yet (2) I am not happy with the on-field product, so therefore (3) I am going to strongly suggest that Coach Shaw make certain changes to the coaching staff to try and fix what I think is wrong with the on-field product.

Sometimes people have blind spots, after all. Personal loyalty may blind a head coach to the fact that the particular coordinator or position coach just isn't up to snuff. Having uncomfortable conversations between an AD and a head coach that are designed to shed some light on those blind spots strikes me as good and healthy. But if it comes to an ultimatum ("fire that assistant coach or you're gone"), then obviously, yes, you no longer have faith in the head coach.

That said, I agree that most ADs wouldn't be the ideal person to suggest replacements or alternatives, and the head coach is much better equipped to do that. ADs aren't GMs, after all. I just think it's totally fair game for an AD to diagnose what's wrong with the existing team, make the argument that the current coordinator seems overmatched or out of ideas, and suggest to the head coach that going in a different direction would fix the specific problem. I don't know what kind of relationship Muir and Shaw have, but one hopes it's the kind of relationship that can handle some of these necessary, uncomfortable conversations without turning it toxic.

(01-06-2020, 02:50 PM)BostonCard Wrote: I very much agree with you CT that an AD should not micromanage to the degree of suggesting specific personnel changes. On the other hand, any sort of competent review process would identify performance deficiencies and ask what sorts of remedial measures will be undertaken. A competent review process would also ask the coach for feedback about the coordinators and assistants. If that feedback didn't match performance, you would ask the coach about that discrepancy (and something like, "considering the injury situation and the fact that we were starting three freshmen on the offensive line, Carberry did a great job", could be a very appropriate answer). If the feedback identified areas of concern, you would follow up with a request for a remedial plan or ask whether personnel actions were indicated. The bottom line is that while you are absolutely right that the AD shouldn't dictate personnel decisions, he (or she) should be able to work with the coach to come to a consensus decision.

BC

Agreed, BC!

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - GK3 - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 10:53 AM)BostonCard Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 10:41 AM)GK3 Wrote: It generally seems to take about 4 years of true incompetence to get someone fired unless you are named Teevens or Harris.

This seems like a bit of a no true Scottsman argument. I'm racking my brain for a coach who has had four years of "true incompetence" before being fired. In addition to the two you mentioned, I think Rachel Hanson was fired after three years (2015 - 2017). I'm not sure we have seen any other recent history of "true incompetence". Maybe Johnny Dawkins, though I wouldn't call it true incompetence so much as "consistent underperformance" (we did win two NIT championships and make it to a sweet sixteen in his eight years).

Well, Cactus Jack won 28% of his games over 4 years, I feel that sort of qualifies as incompetence. Paul Wiggen won 36% with I think John Elway playing quarterback. I guess you have to define competence as it applies to football coaches. What figure would you accept as representing competence? What we as individuals would accept is probably significantly different than what the powers would be will accept. They have shown willingness to dump the really bad coaches in less than 4 years. The great Bill Walsh won less than 60% of his games at Stanford. I do not recall the fans calling for him to get a new offensive coordinator, or a new anything. During those years we were happy if we won more than we lost and we went to a bowl game. The Rose Bowl was such a rarity it was rarely suggested as a possibility. Having watched Stanford Football since the mid 1950's, I have seen a fair number of coaches come and go and sat through some very bad football games. At least then, the price of the ticket to watch a disaster was cheaper than today.

BC

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - BostonCard - 01-06-2020

OK, thanks GK3. I guess the question is how much we can translate what happened 30 and 40 years ago to circumstances today.

BC

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - martyup - 01-06-2020

Who is to say that Shaw and Muir don't meet over beers often and brainstorm how to right the ship? Let them do their jobs already.

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - teejers1 - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 01:16 PM)CTcard Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 01:37 PM)Brickcity Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 01:04 PM)JohnR34231 Wrote: Fisher DeBerry was a highly successful coach at Air Force who fell on hard times. He was finally told he had no choice but to make radical changes to his staff. He resigned rather than do it.
I wonder if Shaw would react that way.

Of course, it seems highly unlikely Muir would ever push it with Shaw. And, if he did, my guess is that Shaw would also quit.

Without any comment upon the current situation at Stanford, in general I think it is a bad idea for an athletic director to dictate staff to a head coach.

It's the head coach's job to run the football program. If you don't have enough confidence in your head coach to hire his own staff, it's not clear how you could possibly have enough confidence in him to be your head coach. It's also hard to see that many ADs would have the knowledge of the coaching candidates and the inner workings of the team to reliably know which coaches are likely to be replaced by upgrades.

When you no longer have confidence in your head coach to run your program, it's time to get a new head coach.

Dictate staff . . . hmmm.

How about saying "hire a proven, competent OC and let him do his job" - without dictating person X.
Also, before you all blithely conclude "that never happens" - word is that is exactly what happened after Kelley's one losing season at ND. And they have been largely excellent since then.

Blind spots indeed. And here, the spot is ginormous . . .

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - BostonCard - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 05:04 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Also, before you all blithely conclude "that never happens" - word is that is exactly what happened after Kelley's one losing season at ND. And they have been largely excellent since then.

LOL; they've been so excellent since then that Brian Kelly just fired his offensive coordinator:

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/

BC

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - SamuelMcF - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 05:21 PM)BostonCard Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:04 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Also, before you all blithely conclude "that never happens" - word is that is exactly what happened after Kelley's one losing season at ND. And they have been largely excellent since then.

LOL; they've been so excellent since then that Brian Kelly just fired his offensive coordinator:

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/

BC

They still went 11-2, dude. And they are cleaning our clock in recruiting.

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/
"Chip Long authored the two highest-scoring seasons of Brian Kelly's time at Notre Dame, along with two of the four best-gaining offenses."

The firing seems a little like grass-is-greener syndrome to me. Regardless, I have no idea how you can argue with teejers' point. ND turned it around after firing half their staff after 4-8...10-3, 12-1, 11-2. Going 11-2 with an apparently crappy (?) OC sounds WONDERFUL to me right now.

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - 76lsjumb - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 05:34 PM)SamuelMcF Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:21 PM)BostonCard Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:04 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Also, before you all blithely conclude "that never happens" - word is that is exactly what happened after Kelley's one losing season at ND. And they have been largely excellent since then.

LOL; they've been so excellent since then that Brian Kelly just fired his offensive coordinator:

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/

BC

They still went 11-2, dude. And they are cleaning our clock in recruiting.

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/
"Chip Long authored the two highest-scoring seasons of Brian Kelly's time at Notre Dame, along with two of the four best-gaining offenses."

The firing seems a little like grass-is-greener syndrome to me. Regardless, I have no idea how you can argue with teejers' point. ND turned it around after firing half their staff after 4-8...10-3, 12-1, 11-2. Going 11-2 with an apparently crappy (?) OC sounds WONDERFUL to me right now.

So you're saying you would rather have Brian Kelly at Stanford than David Shaw?

To each his own...

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - Brickcity - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 05:42 PM)76lsjumb Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:34 PM)SamuelMcF Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:21 PM)BostonCard Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:04 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Also, before you all blithely conclude "that never happens" - word is that is exactly what happened after Kelley's one losing season at ND. And they have been largely excellent since then.

LOL; they've been so excellent since then that Brian Kelly just fired his offensive coordinator:

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/

BC

They still went 11-2, dude. And they are cleaning our clock in recruiting.

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/
"Chip Long authored the two highest-scoring seasons of Brian Kelly's time at Notre Dame, along with two of the four best-gaining offenses."

The firing seems a little like grass-is-greener syndrome to me. Regardless, I have no idea how you can argue with teejers' point. ND turned it around after firing half their staff after 4-8...10-3, 12-1, 11-2. Going 11-2 with an apparently crappy (?) OC sounds WONDERFUL to me right now.

So you're saying you would rather have Brian Kelly at Stanford than David Shaw?

To each his own...

"So you're saying you would rather have Brian Kelly at Stanford than David Shaw?"

So, you're saying that it's impossible to be an extremely successful head coach (Kelly) and also be a good guy (Shaw)? My guess is that it's very possible to do both. I just don't know if Shaw is capable of being both.

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - BostonCard - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 05:34 PM)SamuelMcF Wrote: They still went 11-2, dude. And they are cleaning our clock in recruiting.

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/
"Chip Long authored the two highest-scoring seasons of Brian Kelly's time at Notre Dame, along with two of the four best-gaining offenses."

The firing seems a little like grass-is-greener syndrome to me. Regardless, I have no idea how you can argue with teejers' point. ND turned it around after firing half their staff after 4-8...10-3, 12-1, 11-2. Going 11-2 with an apparently crappy (?) OC sounds WONDERFUL to me right now.

That is exactly the point. 99% of demands to "do something" are grass is greener syndromes. Hell, there are even some Alabama fans now wondering if Nick Saban is passé.

Most coordinator changes don't actually accomplish anything other than make people feel like something is being done.

BC

(01-06-2020, 06:03 PM)Brickcity Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:42 PM)76lsjumb Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:34 PM)SamuelMcF Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:21 PM)BostonCard Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:04 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Also, before you all blithely conclude "that never happens" - word is that is exactly what happened after Kelley's one losing season at ND. And they have been largely excellent since then.

LOL; they've been so excellent since then that Brian Kelly just fired his offensive coordinator:

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/

BC

They still went 11-2, dude. And they are cleaning our clock in recruiting.

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/
"Chip Long authored the two highest-scoring seasons of Brian Kelly's time at Notre Dame, along with two of the four best-gaining offenses."

The firing seems a little like grass-is-greener syndrome to me. Regardless, I have no idea how you can argue with teejers' point. ND turned it around after firing half their staff after 4-8...10-3, 12-1, 11-2. Going 11-2 with an apparently crappy (?) OC sounds WONDERFUL to me right now.

So you're saying you would rather have Brian Kelly at Stanford than David Shaw?

To each his own...

"So you're saying you would rather have Brian Kelly at Stanford than David Shaw?"

So, you're saying that it's impossible to be an extremely successful head coach (Kelly) and also be a good guy (Shaw)? My guess is that it's very possible to do both. I just don't know if Shaw is capable of being both.

You don't think a guy who has been to three Rose Bowls and won two is capable of being successful? What exactly does Shaw need to do to demonstrate that he can be successful?

BC

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - SamuelMcF - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 06:37 PM)BostonCard Wrote: You don't think a guy who has been to three Rose Bowls and won two is capable of being successful? What exactly does Shaw need to do to demonstrate that he can be successful?

BC

Go back to another one. The team has been punched in the mouth; get back up.

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - winflop - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 03:06 PM)ColoradoTree Wrote: I'm mostly with you, but not entirely. To dictate wholesale staff changes? I'm with you. But I think it's reasonable to think (1) David Shaw is the best possible head coach for our program for numerous reasons, and yet (2) I am not happy with the on-field product, so therefore (3) I am going to strongly suggest that Coach Shaw make certain changes to the coaching staff to try and fix what I think is wrong with the on-field product.

And what if he refuses to make any changes and the gross underperformannce continues next year?

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - Brickcity - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 06:37 PM)BostonCard Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:34 PM)SamuelMcF Wrote: They still went 11-2, dude. And they are cleaning our clock in recruiting.

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/
"Chip Long authored the two highest-scoring seasons of Brian Kelly's time at Notre Dame, along with two of the four best-gaining offenses."

The firing seems a little like grass-is-greener syndrome to me. Regardless, I have no idea how you can argue with teejers' point. ND turned it around after firing half their staff after 4-8...10-3, 12-1, 11-2. Going 11-2 with an apparently crappy (?) OC sounds WONDERFUL to me right now.

That is exactly the point. 99% of demands to "do something" are grass is greener syndromes. Hell, there are even some Alabama fans now wondering if Nick Saban is passé.

Most coordinator changes don't actually accomplish anything other than make people feel like something is being done.

BC

(01-06-2020, 06:03 PM)Brickcity Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:42 PM)76lsjumb Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:34 PM)SamuelMcF Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 05:21 PM)BostonCard Wrote: LOL; they've been so excellent since then that Brian Kelly just fired his offensive coordinator:

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/

BC

They still went 11-2, dude. And they are cleaning our clock in recruiting.

https://irish.nbcsports.com/2019/12/12/notre-dame-brian-kelly-fire-chip-long/
"Chip Long authored the two highest-scoring seasons of Brian Kelly's time at Notre Dame, along with two of the four best-gaining offenses."

The firing seems a little like grass-is-greener syndrome to me. Regardless, I have no idea how you can argue with teejers' point. ND turned it around after firing half their staff after 4-8...10-3, 12-1, 11-2. Going 11-2 with an apparently crappy (?) OC sounds WONDERFUL to me right now.

So you're saying you would rather have Brian Kelly at Stanford than David Shaw?

To each his own...

"So you're saying you would rather have Brian Kelly at Stanford than David Shaw?"

So, you're saying that it's impossible to be an extremely successful head coach (Kelly) and also be a good guy (Shaw)? My guess is that it's very possible to do both. I just don't know if Shaw is capable of being both.

You don't think a guy who has been to three Rose Bowls and won two is capable of being successful? What exactly does Shaw need to do to demonstrate that he can be successful?

BC

No question that Shaw has had success at Stanford. But, truthfully...and I was loathe to believe this until recently...it does appear that most of his success was born out of riding Harbaugh's coattails. Those days are clearly over.

RE: Timing for coaching changes? - 82lsju - 01-06-2020

(01-06-2020, 04:55 PM)martyup Wrote: Who is to say that Shaw and Muir don't meet over beers often and brainstorm how to right the ship? Let them do their jobs already.

not likely over beers.......

Quote:"I've never had a drink of alcohol in my life," he [David Shaw] said

https://www.sfgate.com/collegesports/article/Stanford-s-Shaw-won-t-celebrate-3875941.php