We are being asked to report violators.

We are being asked to report violators. - Printable Version

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RE: We are being asked to report violators. - Mick - 04-20-2020

(04-20-2020, 11:25 AM)teejers1 Wrote: Then this week, I see that the City (presumably) has cranked down all the nets on all the courts. Honestly, I thought to myself: that's complete chicken$hit. Those players were distanced and engaging in zero-risk activities (as much as that is possible). And then I thought to myself: how would the City even know/care about these isolated incidents? And it dawned on me that other passersby probably saw it and "reported" it to the City. If that assumption is true, then those "reporters" are complete tools/POSs and need to get a life.

It's as if they have embraced the Dean Wormer view of the world: "No more fun of any kind!!"

Same with golf. I don't think I could get to within six feet of my playing partners with a gun to my head.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - oregontim - 04-20-2020

(04-20-2020, 01:51 PM)burger Wrote: The comparisons with Nazi Germany are beyond stupid. No one is going to the gas chambers. Idiotic Nazi analogies just make the board stupider. Can we drop that already?

Point taken. Comparison dropped.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - oldalum - 04-20-2020

adhering to the rules (which are different in different areas) is really all we can expect, but I think we can expect that. In addition to the increase in risk violators cause, they are being free riders. As the NY Times ethicist put it, analyzing a writer's roommate who was not following SiP:

"the evidence suggests that it [social distancing] is working, even though some people — out of ignorance, foolishness or wickedness — are breaching it. When a policy is working for the general good, we owe it to one another and to the community to do our fair share. A great many people are depriving themselves of face-to-face contacts they would enjoy. It’s unfair to them when others fail to do their part. The policy works because small sacrifices by many people can produce a very large and lifesaving benefit. By defecting from the policy, your roommate is betraying not just you but also everybody who is sticking to it. She is also displaying a lack of respect for everyone who is benefiting from the lowered risk of infection.

article

of course 2 non-roommates playing tennis and maintaining social distance poses essentially no risk, when looked at in isolation. good example. But allowing tennis as a policy for the general public won't always work, as Stanford's experience with the Dish Walk illustrates. I think it's analogous to why drivers need to obey red lights when there's no one around. Essentially no risk in isolation, but a policy of allowing people to proceed against a red light when they judge it's safe to do so won't work because the general public will not uniformly use good judgment.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - teejers1 - 04-20-2020

(04-20-2020, 08:47 PM)oldalum Wrote: adhering to the rules (which are different in different areas) is really all we can expect, but I think we can expect that. In addition to the increase in risk violators cause, they are being free riders. As the NY Times ethicist put it, analyzing a writer's roommate who was not following SiP:

"the evidence suggests that it [social distancing] is working, even though some people — out of ignorance, foolishness or wickedness — are breaching it. When a policy is working for the general good, we owe it to one another and to the community to do our fair share. A great many people are depriving themselves of face-to-face contacts they would enjoy. It’s unfair to them when others fail to do their part. The policy works because small sacrifices by many people can produce a very large and lifesaving benefit. By defecting from the policy, your roommate is betraying not just you but also everybody who is sticking to it. She is also displaying a lack of respect for everyone who is benefiting from the lowered risk of infection.

article

of course 2 non-roommates playing tennis and maintaining social distance poses essentially no risk, when looked at in isolation. But allowing tennis as a policy for the general public often won't work, as Stanford's experience with the Dish Walk illustrates. I think it's analogous to why drivers need to obey red lights when there's no one around. Essentially no risk in isolation, but allowing people to proceed against a red light when they judge it's safe to do so won't work because the general public will not uniformly use good judgment.

Dish walks and tennis are not analogous. At all.
First of all, the Dish was the only good cardio walk place for most of the greater Palo Alto area; thus, high attraction. Second, there is no "built-in separation" in a Dish walk or run as there is in playing tennis. I could go on, but I suspect everyone gets the point.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - oldalum - 04-20-2020

sorry I didn't make my point clearly enough. The problem with the Dish walk was a small number of willful violators, despite a lot of effort at education and threats to close the walk if violations persisted: the road is plenty wide to maintain social distancing. The problem was people who persisted in walking in close groups as if coronavirus had never happened. With tennis, as you point out, it's totally easy to maintain social distance--if you want to; the problem would be a small number of willful violators. That is why the U.S.T.A. canceled all its leagues and matches. People sitting next to each other on the bench to chat during switchovers. Driving together to the courts. etc. I was royally p.o.'d when the public tennis courts across the street were locked up; I thought that was insanely stupid. Then I read about Stanford's experience with the dish walk, and realized the reason for it. A few bad actors spoil it for everyone. As usual, YMMV

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - Goose - 04-20-2020

(04-20-2020, 09:41 PM)oldalum Wrote: Then I read about Stanford's experience with the dish walk, and realized the reason for it. A few bad actors spoil it for everyone. As usual, YMMV

It wasn't "a few". It was many, and some of it was egregious. Parents making no attempt at all to control their children who just ran wherever they wished. Groups walking four and five wide across the trail. Not pretty.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - oldalum - 04-20-2020

Thanks for the correction. It closed the exact day that my daughter and I were planning to walk it, so I never saw it in person.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - pefloresjr - 04-21-2020

I'm in favor of starting to reopen in phases when it is safe and will give us the best chances for an ongoing, real economic recovery. However, I think it is a bad look to be fighting for reopening golf courses and tennis courts on a Stanford board. Maybe we should try to find something else. I would personally go to a movie in my local old 2,000 seat theater if they limited the size of the crowd and enforced the seating distances. I already avoided touching anything in there and bring in my own drink and snacks. Just an observation from a poor Stanford kid who hardly ever played tennis or golf.

Cheers,
Pete F.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - Genuine Realist - 04-21-2020

(04-21-2020, 12:01 AM)pefloresjr Wrote: I'm in favor of starting to reopen in phases when it is safe and will give us the best chances for an ongoing, real economic recovery. However, I think it is a bad look to be fighting for reopening golf courses and tennis courts on a Stanford board. Maybe we should try to find something else. I would personally go to a movie in my local old 2,000 seat theater if they limited the size of the crowd and enforced the seating distances. I already avoided touching anything in there and bring in my own drink and snacks. Just an observation from a poor Stanford kid who hardly ever played tennis or golf.

Cheers,
Pete F.

There's a little thread drift here.

Do I intend to comply with the social distancing directives? Absolutely. i carry a mask with me for enclosed areas. In my walk route, six feet of distance is not a problem.

Will I report offenders whom I notice? No.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - stupac2 - 04-21-2020

(04-20-2020, 05:45 PM)teejers1 Wrote:
(04-20-2020, 04:00 PM)stupac2 Wrote:
(04-20-2020, 02:58 PM)teejers1 Wrote: People die every day.

Do you still somehow not understand that the people who get infected by doing things that violate these orders don't just hurt themselves? The entire point of doing this is that one infection can lead to thousands down the road if you don't break the links. By violating the orders people aren't only exposing themselves to danger, but people many, many links away, who they probably don't even know.

As has been pointed out ad nauseam, the goal isn't to prevent the 20-year-old from getting sick. It's to prevent him from getting sick and giving it to his girlfriend, who gives it to her mother, who takes it to her mother's nursing home, and kills 40 people, or whatever the exact situation may be (this is only an example, you can insert whatever you want there, from infecting a cashier at the grocery store who then inadvertently infects dozens of random shoppers, etc etc).

Yes, I get it Stup. Everyone does.

Do you get that everything we do - even "the essential" runs to stores (where masks are not required, btw, at least in our area) risk goes up for the scenario you unfold? It's all about risk management, and pardon me for not getting worked up about two people playing tennis . . . outside . . . with no one around and/or waiting for them. And pardon me for not stopping and verbally chastising someone I see walking in the park without a mask just because you think everyone should wear one. Good grief.

And btw, until there is a vaccine, grandma at the assisted living facility - and more particularly, the good folks running the place and working there - better take extra, extra, precautions (as is happening where my mom is living right now).

Last point: I'm adhering to all the guidelines and rules. I even carry a mask when visiting any establishment and will wear it - even though not required - if things feel a little close-quartered. Case-in-point, the CVS store where I just picked up some greeting cards. In contrast, the Costco - which was surprisingly low-attended on my last visit - nope. If the county issues a mando mask order, then I'll comply. But until then, I'll exercise my reasoned judgment.

Are you capable of arguing in good faith? I'm sure if you tried you could do it!

My point isn't that you should report every teensy violation, but that your attitude of "people die every day!" is asinine. If you actually "got it" and understood why the various SiP measures are being taken then you'd stop saying it, but you keep saying it so clearly you don't get it.

The larger point that you're making, that some activities can be done safely if practiced with discretion, is fine. Except that if you give an inch people take a mile, and we can't afford that right now. Responsible people could play tennis or golf or use the various local trails, but people aren't responsible. Normally we shrug and deal with it (although in many cases I think this is absurd, our roads would be a lot safer if we took compliance with traffic laws seriously), but right now that's a dumb attitude to take when the costs of compliance are so small. While out with my son in the park, trying to maintain distance from everyone, I've had people jog right by us when other paths are available that wouldn't get near us. I've had people chasing off-leash dogs (not permitted even in non-pandemic times) around, getting too close to us. There seems to be one large group that spends every even getting trashed at the picnic tables (there's no way this is a family unit and those tables are supposed to be closed). Equipment that was taped up has had tape removed. I could go on and on.

I'm not reporting these people, but it's frustrating to see so many signs of people not taking this seriously, especially because non-compliance will make it take longer to get back to normal, and endangers people who are doing everything right.

You seem to think of non-compliance as jaywalking, something that's almost never harmful and while technically illegal, nobody really cares. It's much more like firing a gun off into the air. Most of the time the bullets will harmlessly hit the ground, but when they don't...

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - teejers1 - 04-21-2020

(04-21-2020, 08:52 AM)stupac2 Wrote: The larger point that you're making, that some activities can be done safely if practiced with discretion, is fine. Except that if you give an inch people take a mile, and we can't afford that right now. Responsible people could play tennis or golf or use the various local trails, but people aren't responsible. Normally we shrug and deal with it (although in many cases I think this is absurd, our roads would be a lot safer if we took compliance with traffic laws seriously), but right now that's a dumb attitude to take when the costs of compliance are so small. While out with my son in the park, trying to maintain distance from everyone, I've had people jog right by us when other paths are available that wouldn't get near us. I've had people chasing off-leash dogs (not permitted even in non-pandemic times) around, getting too close to us. There seems to be one large group that spends every even getting trashed at the picnic tables (there's no way this is a family unit and those tables are supposed to be closed). Equipment that was taped up has had tape removed. I could go on and on.

I'll ignore your petty little personal attacks - which seems to be a strong point for you (congrats!) - and close with this:

the highlighted language perfectly encapsulates why our positions diverge. And I'll just leave it at that.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - terry - 04-21-2020

Hold on a minute, folks. We are NOT being asked to report neighbors, joggers, kids on playgrounds, tennis players, people walking dogs, or picnickers.

The Mercury News article linked in the first post said that the Santa Clara County District Attorney has asked residents "to report people and businesses that are in violation of the county's shelter in place order." The article referred to a news release. That news release actually deals only with reporting business that are violating the rules:

"Santa Clara County Announces New Reporting of Non-Essential Businesses Operating in Violation of Health Officer Order to Shelter in Place"

"The County of Santa Clara District Attorney’s Office has established a new phone number and email for individuals or businesses to report a non-essential business operating in violation of the Health Officer Order to Shelter in Place."

https://www.sccgov.org/sites/phd/news/Pages/press-statement-032120-reporting-of-non-essential-businesses.aspx

The District Attorney's office has a web page for filing such reports. Again, it deals with reporting businesses that are in violation:

"Do you have a concern about a business or entity that is possibly violating Santa Clara County’s COVID-19 Shelter-In-Place Order? If they are not on the essential business list please fill out one of the forms listed below and we will look into the matter."

https://www.sccgov.org/sites/da/publications/DistrictAttorneyForms/Pages/Reporting-Stay-In-Place-Order-Violations.aspx

So this is about reporting non-essential businesses that are violating the SIP order. It's not about reporting neighbors, joggers, and the like.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - dabigv13 - 04-21-2020

I personally want a 6 foot stick that I can thwack unmasked joggers and cyclists with if they get too close. Mean glares aren't doing the trick, though the masked ratio is slowly increasing. Hopefully the CA legislature will be brave enough to approve the thwacking stick method.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - 2006alum - 04-21-2020

This confusing mess of a thread might be my fault - I resurrected it because I was trying to find the thread where folks were talking about their first-hand experiences with social distancing in their communities, and I thought this was it.

Clearly not.

And my point was not that I wanted to report people (it'd be pointless as I passed at least *10* cop cars on my 1-hour cycle). My point was simply to note that while most people are doing a reasonable job of social distancing in parks, when it gets crowded enough it's close to impossible, and so I am less than fully confident that in my hour in cycling around the park, no COVID-19 transmission was occurring between individuals/groups, because there were a lot of people without masks and a lot of people walking/running/standing in relatively close proximity to one another.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - Genuine Realist - 04-21-2020

(04-21-2020, 10:13 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: I personally want a 6 foot stick that I can thwack unmasked joggers and cyclists with if they get too close. Mean glares aren't doing the trick, though the masked ratio is slowly increasing. Hopefully the CA legislature will be brave enough to approve the thwacking stick method.

LOL. Shades of 'Thwackum', one of Tom Jones' tutors in Fielding's novel of the same name. Still a great read 275 years later.

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - stupac2 - 04-21-2020

(04-21-2020, 10:13 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: I personally want a 6 foot stick that I can thwack unmasked joggers and cyclists with if they get too close. Mean glares aren't doing the trick, though the masked ratio is slowly increasing. Hopefully the CA legislature will be brave enough to approve the thwacking stick method.

Some cyclists do this to get cars to keep a safe distance:

[Image: Pool-Noodle-bicycle-Photo-by-Annalisa-va...600&crop=1]

RE: We are being asked to report violators. - magnus - 04-21-2020

Nice.

So when Amazon runs out of pool noodles, you'll know that America is listening to the medical experts.