Suicide wave coming? - Printable Version
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RE: Suicide wave coming? - teejers1 - 04-05-2020
(04-05-2020, 12:05 AM)fullmetal Wrote: Again, I'll mention that all economists who have sounded the alarm about an impending recession have *not* recommended easing restrictions until the curve has flattened and virus tests/vaccines are available. A collapse of American hospitals would be a catastrophe of greater economic and moral impact.
Yeah it's bad, but it's what we have to do now since we wasted Jan/Feb while the virus swept through the nation. This is the price of inaction.
I don't believe you know (or anyone does) whether overcrowded hospitals with bodies lying in the entryways and outside will have a greater economic impact than the destruction we're seeing now (and will continue to see with each passing week/month of shut-down). But at least you play the card which I believe is animating the decision-makers - it's the moral thing to do. And I understand that and am fine with it . . . certainly for now. But you don't really believe that shut-down is "the answer" in perpetuity, do you? Or do you? I mean, that's the only way to ensure we don't have "overcrowded hospitals."
And I'll put out another concern: the decision-makers are not feeling the pain that is out there. Specifically, the governor and all politicians are continuing to go to work and collect their checks (off of taxpayers). I wonder if their perspective would change if they were not getting paid a nickel, had to file a claim for unemployment, and were concerned about feeding/housing their kids.
P.S. I agree with you about the initial (in)action at national level. No clue; no plan; haphazard . . . feckless.
P.P.S. Here's a vote for the Swedish model. I think folks here massively underestimate the amount of self-restriction that is going to occur when/if restrictions ever go the other way.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - CornFed - 04-05-2020
The Sweden model would tough to replicate in the US due to the fact that we are not monocultural.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - M T - 04-05-2020
(04-05-2020, 01:38 PM)teejers1 Wrote: P.P.S. Here's a vote for the Swedish model. I think folks here massively underestimate the amount of self-restriction that is going to occur when/if restrictions ever go the other way.
Do you think New Orleans & New York massively underestimate the self-restriction of its residents? How long have those residents known this was coming? That evidence suggests that too many people underestimated this disease. Some of the people here are appalled at churches holding services, or people gathering for spring break, or continuing to hold a SJ Sharks game and inviting fans, or businesses that continued to stay open after the shelter-in-place order applied to them.
I would believe such a vote would put the people doing essential services at greater risk, plus those of us for whom catching this disease is more deadly than playing Russian Roulette. If you have evidence to support your "I think", then show it.
What I think is that Santa Clara County's numbers of new cases are too slowly dropping. I predict more restrictions will come out shortly. (Personally, I think more cases should be isolated in the hospital than at home.) I think that's necessary to get down to a trackable (and tractable) number of new cases per day. I think the US Congress needs to pass a law easing HIPAA restrictions for the specific purpose of fighting epidemics, thus allowing easier tracing of cases.
P.S. Sweden as a country has fewer people than either of the metropolitan areas of NYC or L.A. Its largest city is roughly the size and density of San Jose (1/3 the density of SF, 1/20 the density of NYC), but its urban area is less populous than San Jose's urban area. About 20% of its population is 65+.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - BostonCard - 04-05-2020
(04-05-2020, 01:38 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(04-05-2020, 12:05 AM)fullmetal Wrote: Again, I'll mention that all economists who have sounded the alarm about an impending recession have *not* recommended easing restrictions until the curve has flattened and virus tests/vaccines are available. A collapse of American hospitals would be a catastrophe of greater economic and moral impact.
Yeah it's bad, but it's what we have to do now since we wasted Jan/Feb while the virus swept through the nation. This is the price of inaction.
I don't believe you know (or anyone does) whether overcrowded hospitals with bodies lying in the entryways and outside will have a greater economic impact than the destruction we're seeing now (and will continue to see with each passing week/month of shut-down). But at least you play the card which I believe is animating the decision-makers - it's the moral thing to do. And I understand that and am fine with it . . . certainly for now. But you don't really believe that shut-down is "the answer" in perpetuity, do you? Or do you? I mean, that's the only way to ensure we don't have "overcrowded hospitals."
And I'll put out another concern: the decision-makers are not feeling the pain that is out there. Specifically, the governor and all politicians are continuing to go to work and collect their checks (off of taxpayers). I wonder if their perspective would change if they were not getting paid a nickel, had to file a claim for unemployment, and were concerned about feeding/housing their kids.
P.S. I agree with you about the initial (in)action at national level. No clue; no plan; haphazard . . . feckless.
P.P.S. Here's a vote for the Swedish model. I think folks here massively underestimate the amount of self-restriction that is going to occur when/if restrictions ever go the other way.
Teejers, this article raises many of the same issues you did.
https://www.economist.com/briefing/2020/04/04/the-hard-choices-covid-policymakers-face
No conclusions, but this is the rough outline of what you are likely to see:
Quote:This does not mean that countries have to continue in lockdown until there is a vaccine. It means that when they relax constraints, they must have a plan. The rudiments of such a plan would be to ease the pressure step by step, not all at once, and to put in place a programme for picking up new cases and people who have been in contact with them as quickly as possible. How countries trace cases will depend, in part, on how low they were able to get the level of the virus in the population and how able, or inclined, they are to erode their citizens’ privacy. How they relax constraints will depend to some extent on modelling.
My issue is that I haven't seen much in the way of planning suggesting that we will be able to carry out this latter, more crucial step. Now, to be fair, minds should be concentrated right now on how to deal with the immediate crisis in front of us, and hopefully, behind the scenes, the right people are thinking about how to deal with the aftermath. On the other hand, crappy planning got us into this situation to begin with, and I can see a situation where the worst of the crisis is over, and there is a rush to pull the restrictions, only for a second wave to come around. That being said, even if some restrictions are lifted, I doubt we go back to the status quo ante coronavirus for a long time. The highest risk events will continue to be restricted for a while, even if some activities are removed from the restriction.
BC
RE: Suicide wave coming? - terry - 04-05-2020
The effectiveness of the Swedish approach is yet to be determined, IMO.
Deaths due to Covid-19 in Scandanavian countries (per million of population) --
39 Sweden
31 Denmark
13 Norway
5 Finland
Source: NY Times website, 4/5/20
There are reports that the Swedish government is preparing to seek tighter restrictions.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/05/sweden-prepares-to-tighten-coronavirus-measures-as-death-toll-climbs
https://www.dw.com/en/sweden-mulls-u-turn-on-coronavirus-restrictions/a-53020024
RE: Suicide wave coming? - Genuine Realist - 04-05-2020
(04-04-2020, 02:36 PM)BostonCard Wrote: People have talked about this like its a war, and that is a good analogy. The problem is we aren't mobilizing like its a war.
There are 10+ million unemployed. Let's deploy them to fight the virus. Hire unemployed people to swab, run tests, contact trace, isolate, cook and deliver food to quarantined zones. Even sewing masks. Lots of factories are idling. Let's use them to make PPE, ventilators, testing equipment (testing machines, etc), hospital beds, stuff that can be used to fight the virus. We have lots of hotels are idle; use them to quarantine asymptomatic and lightly symptomatic patients. Once those patients are recovered and virus free, let's recruit them to do jobs that require lots of person to person contact, let's harvest their plasma and use it (if that proves successful).
Instead, the attitude is, "meh, let's try to to minimize contagion, if you feel like it." If this is a war, let's goddamned act like it.
BC
This seems to me a bit premature. This whole phenomenon has overtaken the nation (and the world) with astonishing speed. I was in New York, with my wife, on February 20th-24th - five productions in four days, crowded theaters, shoulder to shoulder. This was only seven weeks ago. Medical advice even then was along the lines of preparation for another conventional flu. A few days later, I happened to be summoned into the Kaiser office of my primary care physician for a physical, since she hadn't seen me in a couple of years. She is conservative to the point of paranoia on health conditions. She dismissed Covid-19 with a shrug - 'wash your hands a lot and don't worry too much.' My surgeon daughter was similarly indifferent.
On March 5th - just 30 days ago - I attended a well-reviewed production of 'Chicago' in San Jose. Same crowded theater conditions. By then there wa nervousness, but the show sold out.Two days later I went to the movies, as it turns out for the last time in some time. All of the conference basketball tournaments were still scheduled, as well as the tournament before full arenas. This was only four weeks ago.
It's way too early to write history, but my sense is that, through the end of January, most of the nations and leaders of the world relied primarily on reports and information from China that turned out to be wildly inaccurate. (I'll pass on whether that was deliberate or not. This post is not political.) The border closings that occurred were widely criticized as unduly xenophobic. An Italian mayor suggested that his citizens go out and hug Chinese residents among them, to show the absence of hostility. The WHO put out a statement that panic was a greater danger than the virus.
I think the history will show that this optimism began to disappear when Western physicians began to treat the virus and gather reliable data, particularly in Italy. Alarm bells began to go off, and ring louder and louder throughout February. By the end of the month, attitudes had hanged. Just about every authority recognized that a real crisis had arrived. But the gravity was still not completely appreciated. I mentioned that no events were canceled or re-scheduled through the first 10 days of March. This seems incredible looking back.
In the second week of March, my daughter began to receive reports that scared the hell out of her on my behalf. (I am 73, with a compromised immune system because of methotrexate, my treatment for arthritis.) She effectively ordered me into an extreme quarantine, in which state I've been living for the last 20 days. My impression is that the nation went into Defcon4 mode at about that time.
I don't think the response to this crisis has been laggard at all, if correlated with the growing awareness of the nature of the virus. I think it's been almost as fast as it could practically be. We did not go to a war time footing after Pearl Harbor in days, but months. Not that speed is not of the essence, but there are limitations to how fast you can go. I believe delivery and in-home services are going to explode specatcularly. But you can't do that overnight.
The inevitable attempts to politicize the mess leave me cold. You can single out Trump for various statements, but the same is true of Biden, Pelosi, and other Democrat leaders. Unity seems to me more important.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - magnus - 04-06-2020
(04-05-2020, 10:30 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: It's way too early to write history, but my sense is that, through the end of January, most of the nations and leaders of the world relied primarily on reports and information from China that turned out to be wildly inaccurate.Perhaps this is true. But if so, this is what I would point to as a fatal flaw by the western world leaders. Why were they relying on China's reports when China's neighbors were reacting so aggressively. Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore were already in full fight mode. At the end of Jan, I canceled my flight to Taiwan and Singapore while witnessing the continual spread in both countries. I feared I would get stuck in one of those countries unable to come back. (In hindsight, maybe that wouldn't have been so bad, heh). I figured if I was that aware of the situation, then our government must also be and would act accordingly. Especially with the Wuhan lockdown and all the crazy unofficial reports coming out. It was very disappointing as February unraveled to witness so little actual activity from the government. Disappointment in our testing ability (everything had to be shipped to Atlanta) turned to horror that we weren't already making protective gear for, well, everyone.
In hindsight, sole blame can't be laid on the administration. It's the system we have in place now. I'm not sure a Dem (or alternate GOP) president would have reacted much faster. Unless the horror hit our doorstep...or at least our closest allies' doorstep, it's hard to motivate. Especially when, as Genuine said, US doctors weren't taking this seriously. I asked 2 ID docs before my trip what to do and they both said I should go. Not to mention the WHO's reaction.
I'm guessing history will probably tell us that the western world got too complacent.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - Leftcoast - 04-06-2020
Quote:I'm not sure a Dem (or alternate GOP) president would have reacted much faster. - Magnus
Maybe, but this particular President has a history of doubting scientists and not trusting subject matter experts. I'd like to think 42, 43, or 44 had less of this type of hubris, would have been more heedful of the many warnings, and quicker to trust the science once the risk was known. I could be wrong here.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - burger - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 02:15 AM)Leftcoast Wrote:Quote:I'm not sure a Dem (or alternate GOP) president would have reacted much faster. - Magnus
Maybe, but this particular President has a history of doubting scientists and not trusting subject matter experts. I'd like to think 42, 43, or 44 had less of this type of hubris, would have been more heedful of the many warnings, and quicker to trust the science once the risk was known. I could be wrong here.
This article lays out that the Obama administration's response to H1N1 flu in 2009 was quick and effective: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trumps-h1n1-swine-flu-pandemic-spin/
If you compare the timelines of response from the first US H1N1 infection vs the first US coronavirus infection, the Obama administration was weeks or even >1 month quicker to declare an emergency, ask for funding, etc. So, no comparison here.
Magnus Wrote:In hindsight, sole blame can't be laid on the administration. It's the system we have in place now. I'm not sure a Dem (or alternate GOP) president would have reacted much faster. Unless the horror hit our doorstep...or at least our closest allies' doorstep, it's hard to motivate. Especially when, as Genuine said, US doctors weren't taking this seriously. I asked 2 ID docs before my trip what to do and they both said I should go. Not to mention the WHO's reaction.This is highly specious reasoning. Frankly, some doctors are idiots. Just because you can get a medical degree does not mean you are immune to political persuasion, etc. The fact that doctors were dismissing the virus simply means that the federal government did not do its job properly in warning people about the dangers of the virus. Remember, idiot Trump spent a month telling people that it was a hoax, was nothing, etc. Lots of people listen to Trump, even though he has a long record of lying. In an ideal world where a president was on top of the coronavirus response from day one, no doctor would have been able to ignore it.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - Mick - 04-06-2020
(04-05-2020, 10:30 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: I don't think the response to this crisis has been laggard at all, if correlated with the growing awareness of the nature of the virus. I think it's been almost as fast as it could practically be. We did not go to a war time footing after Pearl Harbor in days, but months. Not that speed is not of the essence, but there are limitations to how fast you can go. I believe delivery and in-home services are going to explode specatcularly. But you can't do that overnight.
The inevitable attempts to politicize the mess leave me cold. You can single out Trump for various statements, but the same is true of Biden, Pelosi, and other Democrat leaders. Unity seems to me more important.
I was thinking just that as I was forced to go to the market yesterday. Some people were clearly quite careful with gloves and masks, some people implemented basic social distancing but were mask- and glove-free, some clearly didn't know or care anything about basic protections. People learn at different speeds, some people learn slowly, some people not at all. Implementing society-wide change is difficult at best. I think we're at the limit of what change we can make as a society.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - Genuine Realist - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 07:39 AM)burger Wrote:(04-06-2020, 02:15 AM)Leftcoast Wrote:Quote:I'm not sure a Dem (or alternate GOP) president would have reacted much faster. - Magnus
Maybe, but this particular President has a history of doubting scientists and not trusting subject matter experts. I'd like to think 42, 43, or 44 had less of this type of hubris, would have been more heedful of the many warnings, and quicker to trust the science once the risk was known. I could be wrong here.
This article lays out that the Obama administration's response to H1N1 flu in 2009 was quick and effective: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trumps-h1n1-swine-flu-pandemic-spin/
If you compare the timelines of response from the first US H1N1 infection vs the first US coronavirus infection, the Obama administration was weeks or even >1 month quicker to declare an emergency, ask for funding, etc. So, no comparison here.
Magnus Wrote:In hindsight, sole blame can't be laid on the administration. It's the system we have in place now. I'm not sure a Dem (or alternate GOP) president would have reacted much faster. Unless the horror hit our doorstep...or at least our closest allies' doorstep, it's hard to motivate. Especially when, as Genuine said, US doctors weren't taking this seriously. I asked 2 ID docs before my trip what to do and they both said I should go. Not to mention the WHO's reaction.This is highly specious reasoning. Frankly, some doctors are idiots. Just because you can get a medical degree does not mean you are immune to political persuasion, etc. The fact that doctors were dismissing the virus simply means that the federal government did not do its job properly in warning people about the dangers of the virus. Remember, idiot Trump spent a month telling people that it was a hoax, was nothing, etc. Lots of people listen to Trump, even though he has a long record of lying. In an ideal world where a president was on top of the coronavirus response from day one, no doctor would have been able to ignore it.
The article on swine flu is typical of the vagueness with which achievements of the Obama Administration are praised. There's no mention of the time frame within which responses were launched, which is the whole point. To my understanding, he was miles slower than the Trump Administration has been here. The fact that a vaccine was developed within six months had a lot more to do with the nature of the virus than any political action. A similar observation can be made about genetic mapping, etc. The bottom line is that swine flu was a lot less dangerous than this thing. Obama was a lot slower, as I understand it, but - OTOH - maybe because the extremity was not so great.
I"m trying to avoid the venom that infects the other board, but I see no point in politicizing this crisis. I do believe the societal response has been relatively quick in terms of available information. A lockdown of the scale we are enduring now was out of the question politically and socially before medical opinion was loud and unanimous, and that did not happen until the second week of March. I don't think either party acquitted itself all that well - Democratic leaders are going to have to live with rather embarrassing criticisms they made of what measures the Administration DID take. (Nancy Pelosi is on video in mid February urging San Franciscans to go out and celebrate Chinese New Year in presumably large crowds - the same advice as Di Blasio. disastrous in both cases.)
The bottom line to me is that a peace time society was caught flatfooted by a war time emergency. The much under appreciated Bush did initiate a pandemic plan, after acquainting himself with the 1918 experience. In 2006, I doubt it was even covered by the MSM, preoccupied as it was with the war. Two successive Administrations ignored or weakened the plan. I don't see any point in debating which one did worse. Both Obama and Trump proposed budget reductions for the CDC, which were not enacted. Maybe they should have been, paradoxically, in the interest of efficiency and effectiveness. Overfunded, bloated agencies, staffed with civil servant time killers, are not what the doctor ordered. (A little joke there.) Maybe the Congress should have looked hard at the actual capabilities of the agency, instead of conducting endless investigations of the Obama and Trump Presidencies, respectively.
In any case, the CDC remained as it was. The major issue is that it turns out to be completely unprepared for a pandemic on this scale. And the bottom line. . .
What difference does any of this make now? I"m glad to see Bush regain a little of the historical credibility he deserves, but - in larger terms- so what?
We had better get on with this task, without looking back, in the same way as the nation did after Pearl Harbor.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - 2006alum - 04-06-2020
Genuine Realist, if you'd like to see national unity, then that needs to start with our nation's leader. Petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies all diminish the capacity to unite. I've seen zero evidence that Trump has any capacity to work with anyone who doesn't completely fall in line behind him and praise him as if he is the Sun God. As it is, the whole country watches to see whether Fauci is permitted to tell the truth even if it outright conflicts with the lies Trump spews.
Speaking locally, I think London Breed has done an excellent job - she declared a state of emergency on Feb. 26, before SF even had any diagnosed cases. A week later, door tags went up on every door in SF in 5 languages, explaining what SARS-COV-2 was, symptoms, how to treat, where to go for more information, etc. When voluntary compliance proved insufficient, SF was the first locality to put a shelter in place order into effect a week later on March 16, and she coordinated with the surrounding five counties so that everyone moved in lockstep.
She and leaders in CA and WA were way ahead of the curve, and as a result, it's been flattened here in a way it hasn't elsewhere. But those regional leaders can't unite a country. And the leader of our country has palpably more interest in childish name-calling than in bringing people together.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - CornFed - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 08:44 AM)2006alum Wrote: Genuine Realist, if you'd like to see national unity, then that needs to start with our nation's leader. Petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies all diminish the capacity to unite. I've seen zero evidence that Trump has any capacity to work with anyone who doesn't completely fall in line behind him and praise him as if he is the Sun God.I think his petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies are a reaction to the petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies from his opposition.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - 2006alum - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 01:30 PM)CornFed Wrote:(04-06-2020, 08:44 AM)2006alum Wrote: Genuine Realist, if you'd like to see national unity, then that needs to start with our nation's leader. Petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies all diminish the capacity to unite. I've seen zero evidence that Trump has any capacity to work with anyone who doesn't completely fall in line behind him and praise him as if he is the Sun God.I think his petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies are a reaction to the petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies from his opposition.
Do you genuinely believe this? Can you point to one other prominent national politician who regularly gives his/her political opponents petty nicknames? I'd love to see what other politician has compiled a cornucopia of petty nicknames half the length of this one.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - CornFed - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 01:34 PM)2006alum Wrote:Yes, I absolutely believe this. Before he had even been elected, his opponents argued to suspend journalistic ethics in light of the threat he posed to the country. He has been attacked on a basis unprecedented to the presidency.(04-06-2020, 01:30 PM)CornFed Wrote:(04-06-2020, 08:44 AM)2006alum Wrote: Genuine Realist, if you'd like to see national unity, then that needs to start with our nation's leader. Petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies all diminish the capacity to unite. I've seen zero evidence that Trump has any capacity to work with anyone who doesn't completely fall in line behind him and praise him as if he is the Sun God.I think his petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies are a reaction to the petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies from his opposition.
Do you genuinely believe this? Can you point to one other prominent national politician who regularly gives his/her political opponents petty nicknames? I'd love to see what other politician has compiled a cornucopia of petty nicknames half the length of this one.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - BostonCard - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 03:57 PM)CornFed Wrote:(04-06-2020, 01:34 PM)2006alum Wrote:Yes, I absolutely believe this. Before he had even been elected, his opponents argued to suspend journalistic ethics in light of the threat he posed to the country. He has been attacked on a basis unprecedented to the presidency.(04-06-2020, 01:30 PM)CornFed Wrote:(04-06-2020, 08:44 AM)2006alum Wrote: Genuine Realist, if you'd like to see national unity, then that needs to start with our nation's leader. Petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies all diminish the capacity to unite. I've seen zero evidence that Trump has any capacity to work with anyone who doesn't completely fall in line behind him and praise him as if he is the Sun God.I think his petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies are a reaction to the petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies from his opposition.
Do you genuinely believe this? Can you point to one other prominent national politician who regularly gives his/her political opponents petty nicknames? I'd love to see what other politician has compiled a cornucopia of petty nicknames half the length of this one.
Plus, he never wore a tan suit.
BC
RE: Suicide wave coming? - terry - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 01:30 PM)CornFed Wrote: I think his petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies are a reaction to the petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies from his opposition.
This post is 100% politics and 0% Covid-19. So are the next two posts after it.
I would rather not turn this into a political message board.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - CornFed - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 06:34 PM)terry Wrote:I am impressed that you didn't even mention the post from which I quoted.(04-06-2020, 01:30 PM)CornFed Wrote: I think his petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies are a reaction to the petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies from his opposition.
This post is 100% politics and 0% Covid-19. So are the next two posts after it.
I would rather not turn this into a political message board.
RE: Suicide wave coming? - teejers1 - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 06:34 PM)terry Wrote: I would rather not turn this into a political message board.
Yeah. I've been a little guilty (with feckless comment), but here's the thing:
a. politicizing it is so petty right now; and
b. you know the finger-pointing and recriminations will be front and center come November (which is okay). Can people hold off till at least October 1, or is that too much to ask?
RE: Suicide wave coming? - stupac2 - 04-07-2020
(04-06-2020, 07:40 PM)CornFed Wrote:(04-06-2020, 06:34 PM)terry Wrote:I am impressed that you didn't even mention the post from which I quoted.(04-06-2020, 01:30 PM)CornFed Wrote: I think his petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies are a reaction to the petty insults, name-calling, and outright lies from his opposition.
This post is 100% politics and 0% Covid-19. So are the next two posts after it.
I would rather not turn this into a political message board.
Is there any way that the post isn't, you know, true? All your reply did was add some pointless whattaboutism to it, all completely without evidence. (And, note, I'm not trying to wade into this argument, just point out why someone like terry would think the post you quoted was tolerable but your reply was not.)
Either way, terry is right and this is a pointless and unproductive avenue. As I said before if you feel the need to post to defend "your side", stop. If a comment is so bad, report it, don't reply.