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RE: Thread locked, so . . . - chrisk - 04-06-2020
You can see/read a good story on Taiwan’s response on the PBS NewsHour website. The story was originally broadcast on Wednesday, April 1.
It is embarrassing that a good friend of the US, which has strong distrust of China, can so completely outperform out government, which can access so many more resources.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - burger - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 03:02 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: Wuhan locked down January 23rd. The NYT had its first article about a mystery viral pneumonia in China in January 6th. Our intelligence agencies knew about person to person spread and deaths in January. China gave us plenty of time to get this under control and showed us how to do it too. But our leaders wasted that time.
Trump went 70 DAYS between first being briefed on the virus and finally stopping the lies about it being a hoax, nothing, etc.: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2020/04/04/coronavirus-government-dysfunction/?arc404=true
So if people (not addressing you specifically, dabigv) think that two weeks of additional notice from China would have made a difference, then I have a bridge to sell you.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - BostonCard - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 02:11 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote:(04-06-2020, 01:53 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Well, we do have the Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome (MERS), which did start in the Middle East and has been associated with transmission from camels.
I could give a rats arse what we call this thing; I just want an administration that pursues policies to contain it. I think to GR's point, when the history of this virus is written, nobody is going to come out looking so hot, except maybe Taiwan. The Chinese Communist Party's missteps early in the epidemic almost certainly contributed to the spread of the virus, but, I don't get to vote on who China's leaders are (nor, for that matter do the Chinese).
On the other hand, America's leaders are accountable to its people, and many (not just in the administration, but in state and local governments both Democratic and Republican) have failed at a time when we most needed them to step up. Once upon a time, we had a President who knew where the buck stopped.
BC
Maybe, but i don't think there was one government in the world that reacted with the alacrity required. You need social awareness as well as political will, and neither was there.
Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, and Hong Kong to name four.
There was plenty of political will to impose a Chinese travel ban on February 2. The problem was that the virus was out of the proverbial barn, so to speak, and Trump didn't take the steps required to prepare for the possibility that there was community transmission and making sure the appropriate agencies (CDC, FDA) were equipping us with the means we needed to test broadly. That was a failure, full stop. And by being blind to local transmission until it was too late, the administration precluded a strategy of test, isolate, and trace that might have stemmed the more draconian measures now in place. If nothing else, it would have bought time and enabled socialization of harsher measures earlier.
BC
(04-06-2020, 02:28 PM)Goose Wrote:(04-06-2020, 01:53 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Once upon a time, we had a President who knew where the buck stopped.Yes, and that President virtually destroyed the Navy and got us into the Korean war, for which we were totally unprepared. I point this out not to single out Truman as a bad president, but rather to show that Presidents with the best of intentions often have bad outcomes in many areas. In some areas he arguably took the wrong advice.
BC
No doubt, but at least he didn't pretend like it was someone else's fault.
BC
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - ChicagoCard - 04-06-2020
I'm glad people have brought Taiwan into the discussion. There are many anecdotal references to expressions of anger among the Taiwanese, some of whom aren't as shy as I would be in using Wuhan as part of the name of this virus. But since it's in large part due to the 2002-03 SARS experience that Taiwan, S. Korea, Singapore, etc have the wherewithal to suppress a viral outbreak such as this, how about SARS2 as a compromise name. It's already in the proper name that we're shortening to Covid-2.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - teejers1 - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 02:17 PM)pefloresjr Wrote:(04-06-2020, 12:54 PM)teejers1 Wrote: to 2006 Alum, because providing a geographic name is a factual indicator that helps people associate virus with origin. Is there something wrong with that?
For example, if there was some virus that broke out from a Stanford lab or something and it was colloquially called "the Stanford virus," would you have a problem with that? If so, why?
Trying to find nefarious intent in everything must get so tiresome. And btw, this has nothing to do with the occupant of the WH who has clustered the federal response to a fare thee well.
P.S. To your "reverse question," I'd have the same response - why can't those be called by geographic origins, too? They can have "generally accepted scientific names," too, but there is nothing "wrong" with giving virus's more readily associative names, at least from this angle.
This is really simple. Associating the virus with China is causing Asians to be discriminated against and even assaulted. You have stated nothing in support of using China or Wuhan that comes even close to that in terms of importance. It comes down to common courtesy. If I am doing something that is or even could be causing others harm and I have easy alternatives to doing that thing, I should take the easy alternative and not risk harming others.
To make it clear that this is really happening I offer an incident that recently happened to my across-the-street neighbor. She is Asian and regularly walks her dog around the block. I do the same with my dog and we often see each other. I saw her the other day and she told me that she was afraid to walk her dog because a few weeks ago, someone driving by in a car started yelling something to her about being Chinese. She hurried back to her house and is now in fear every time she leaves her home. She had never had anything like this happen before. This did not happen in some backwater, we live in a nice area in San Francisco. If we can all just use the scientifically accepted name for COVID19, it could help to start to minimize discrimination such as this. Even the President seems to have stopped calling it the China or Wuhan virus. There is nothing to be gained by it and a great deal to be lost.
Cheers,
Pete F.
"If we just tell everyone COVID, COVID, COVID, they will never know where this virus originated, and then we'll all be better off." Hey, let's just call it "the Springtime Virus!" That has a happy connotation.
Look, I'm actually with BC in not caring what it's called. What I find astounding, however, is the insistence by many - including here - that referring to it as the Wuhan Virus must be some nefarious plot to either discriminate against people from China or support President's Trump effort to call it "the China virus." Um . . . no. It can just be an acceptance of the geographic origination . . . and nothing more. Really.
And Pete, the story about your neighbor is shameful. But I live in an area with a brobdingnagian Asian influence (I suspect, but don't know, many are from China), and have neither seen nor read about anything like that going on. Let's hope your example is the way-on-the-fringe-outlier.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - g1313 - 04-06-2020
We can all hope that Pete's example is an outlier, and no one thinks that changing the name will hide the fact that the virus originated in China and will eliminate all possibilities of hate crimes and intolerance.
I only ask you to think about what it really costs you to just not call it the china virus, and weigh that against the chance that it might make a small difference in someone else being discriminated against.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - Goose - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 03:27 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(04-06-2020, 02:11 PM)Genuine Realist Wrote: Maybe, but i don't think there was one government in the world that reacted with the alacrity required. You need social awareness as well as political will, and neither was there.
Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, and Hong Kong to name four.
Not really BC. For them it was pretty much business as usual. They had a good contact tracing and epidemic response phase 1 team ready to go. They just let them continue to do their thing. No real down side in doing that, so an easy decision. If it wasn't working, or if their teams said they were overwhelmed, then a decision would have been required. Didn't happen, so no decision was required.
Quote:There was plenty of political will to impose a Chinese travel ban on February 2. The problem was that the virus was out of the proverbial barn, so to speak, and Trump didn't take the steps required to prepare for the possibility that there was community transmission and making sure the appropriate agencies (CDC, FDA) were equipping us with the means we needed to test broadly. That was a failure, full stop. And by being blind to local transmission until it was too late, the administration precluded a strategy of test, isolate, and trace that might have stemmed the more draconian measures now in place. If nothing else, it would have bought time and enabled socialization of harsher measures earlier.I think you are correct that the virus was in the community. I don't think it was ever a viable option for us to even try why Taiwan and friends did. We didn't have the trained people in place to do it, or a plan to do it, really. Certainly we have no experience doing anything like that on a national level. We also needed to do it Feb 2, not March 1 for it to matter. The necessary people were neither available nor trained. The USPHS has about 6000 officers, some fraction of whom could be deployed. That would have be a drop in the bucket, and would have taken weeks to organize, at best. Unfortunately, it appears that they still aren't necessary people available at any level, which is different issue. I think there was a failure alright, and that failure has been ongoing for many years. No decision made in Washington on Feb 2 would have changed anything.
BC
(04-06-2020, 03:27 PM)BostonCard Wrote:True. He defended his actions as best he could. He never said it was anybody else's fault, because he never admitted that the actions he took were mistakes. It is interesting that in his firing of MacArthur he said "I fired him because he wouldn't respect the authority of the President. I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that's not against the law for generals.". A smart reporter might have asked why the president allowed a dumb son of a bitch to command his army in Japan and Korea for years. My point is that sometimes decisions are made that don't work out. Easy to say it was a mistake in hindsight. It is also easy to recommend actions that simply can't be executed and hypothesize a different outcome.(04-06-2020, 02:28 PM)Goose Wrote:No doubt, but at least he didn't pretend like it was someone else's fault.(04-06-2020, 01:53 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Once upon a time, we had a President who knew where the buck stopped.Yes, and that President virtually destroyed the Navy and got us into the Korean war, for which we were totally unprepared. I point this out not to single out Truman as a bad president, but rather to show that Presidents with the best of intentions often have bad outcomes in many areas. In some areas he arguably took the wrong advice.
BC
BC
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - oldalum - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 04:07 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Let's hope your example is the way-on-the-fringe-outlier.Wikipedia list (by country and by state within the U.S.)
CNN story
NY Times story
just a few anecdotes compared to the population, but word gets around.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - teejers1 - 04-06-2020
(04-06-2020, 04:14 PM)g1313 Wrote: We can all hope that Pete's example is an outlier, and no one thinks that changing the name will hide the fact that the virus originated in China and will eliminate all possibilities of hate crimes and intolerance.
I only ask you to think about what it really costs you to just not call it the china virus, and weigh that against the chance that it might make a small difference in someone else being discriminated against.
I'm not calling it "the china virus" - that is a different group of posters here who want to answer "What's so terrible about calling it the Wuhan virus" by replying with "Calling it the China virus puts Asians in danger." Putting aside the nomenclature (which I actually think matters for the purpose of IDing geographic origin), Pete's position (and yours, to a much lesser extent) must be that the attacks all occurred because the people who made the verbal/physical assaults all did so because they were thinking "China virus" and then going after anyone who looks like a responsible party. There are so many reaches in there, it's tough to give it a ton of credence.
But FTR, I do, in fact, refer it to COVID (as does everyone I know). I just take no offense whatsoever to references to the Wuhan Virus and am somewhat surprised by those who do. Apologies for beating this dead horse - but we are all in lock-down/boredom mode.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - Leftcoast - 04-07-2020
Here's a recent report cataloging anti-asian targeting/discrimination incidents. Pete's example fits an all too common profile - women are targeted 3:1 over men in reported incidents. These are self-reported incidents so geography statistics would be meaningless but it does show trends in the types of attacks and triggering incidents.
http://www.asianpacificpolicyandplanningcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/A3PCON_Public_Weekly_Report_3.pdf
https://www.asianpacificpolicyandplanningcouncil.org/stop-aapi-hate/
You may have heard the SF State Professor pulling this together on radio and TV recently. Russel is a Stanford Alum (class of '84) and currently the chair of Asian American Studies at SF State. (And my long ago roommate.) I had a Zoom check-in with him last week along with my other Suite mates. After talking to so many folks who were victims he's not a fan of calling this the "China Virus".
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - Mick - 05-09-2020
(04-06-2020, 02:08 PM)fullmetal Wrote: Brock Turner's press nickname as the "Stanford rapist" irked me to no end, and similarly, the "Chinese virus" annoys me because it is at once both extremely vague and inflammatory as the term Chinese is nearly exclusively a perjorative in the mouths of certain media outlets. To fight that perception, it would be nice to do away with "Chinese virus."
Wuhan virus, SARS-CoV-2, etc. are fine. But the insistence on using "Chinese virus" (there are more than one) is not specific enough to be anything more than a racial dogwhistle. Do better.
Also, I concur with everyone else who took notice of the Wuhan lockdown. Quasi-martial law for a city of 11 million is not a light undertaking, and to not assume the worst from there was foolish.
San Antonio now condemns "Chinese virus" as hate speech.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8300331/San-Antonio-passes-resolution-declaring-term-Chinese-virus-hate-speech.html
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - 2006alum - 05-09-2020
(05-09-2020, 09:02 AM)Mick Wrote: San Antonio now condemns "Chinese virus" as hate speech.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8300331/San-Antonio-passes-resolution-declaring-term-Chinese-virus-hate-speech.html
From another article about this:
Quote:Anecdotal reports from a local media outlet say that there has been an increase in racist remarks targeted toward Asians, including a Chinese-American restaurant owner who was “verbally assaulted with coronavirus-related slurs before being physically attacked toward the end of February.”
A similar resolution has been proposed in the U.S. House of Representatives, which was co-sponsored by eight of the 13 Democrats in the Texas delegation.
The House resolution cites a stabbing that took place at a Sam’s Club in Midland, Texas, where a man attempted to stab to death an Asian-American family, including two young children, because he thought they were “Chinese and infecting people with the coronavirus.”
An off-duty border patrol agent and a Sam’s Club employee stepped in to stop the attack.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - BostonCard - 05-09-2020
Interestingly, in China, there was a string of hostility towards Africans after a couple of African travelers tested positive.
BC
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - fullmetal - 05-09-2020
China reportedly locked up about three million Uighur Muslims in reeducation camps over the last few years. The populace is not shy about seeing divisions by race or religion.
I'll have to ask around to see what the Chinese call the virus...
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - BostonCard - 05-09-2020
Yeah, the CCP is a vile regime. No amount of incompetence by the US changes that.
BC
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - 97fan - 05-09-2020
(05-09-2020, 09:46 AM)BostonCard Wrote: Interestingly, in China, there was a string of hostility towards Africans after a couple of African travelers tested positive.
BC
Racism toward Africans in China is long-standing and quite ugly, even in normal times. (My sister-in-law has been working for several years on a documentary about this topic.) It's not surprising that the pandemic would amplify prejudices that previously were less likely to be expressed openly.
The same phenomenon explains the recent increase in anti-Asian hate speech in the U.S. I can't prove scientifically that Asians are now more likely to be targets of discrimination in the U.S. than they were before the pandemic, but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence to support this conclusion, and indeed it would be surprising if there weren't such an increase, given the tendency of large negative events to produce scapegoating and to bring existing prejudices to the surface.
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - Mick - 05-09-2020
(05-09-2020, 11:41 AM)fullmetal Wrote: China reportedly locked up about three million Uighur Muslims in reeducation camps over the last few years. The populace is not shy about seeing divisions by race or religion.
I'll have to ask around to see what the Chinese call the virus...
I think they're marketing it as the American Military Virus (AMV).
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - Mick - 05-15-2020
And the Chinese Communist Party promises to meddle in the U. S. Presidential Election. Given the two choices, not sure that it's necessary, ho ho ho.
https://freebeacon.com/national-security/chinese-state-media-warn-country-will-interfere-in-u-s-election/
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - BostonCard - 05-15-2020
Odd that they would advertise it. Hopefully this will prompt officials to take election meddling seriously.
BC
RE: Thread locked, so . . . - oldalum - 05-15-2020
(05-15-2020, 08:52 AM)BostonCard Wrote: Hopefully this will prompt officials to take election meddling seriously.In the immortal words of a former Stanford student-athlete: "You can't be serious!" When the Trump administration, the Justice Dept. and Senate Republicans are engaging in a multi-faceted effort to discredit the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election??? Or are you thinking they are capable of doing that and attacking China at the same time?